Wow, no answer then? Grace can be universal without salvation being universal. Christ died once for all.
Saved Or Predestined ???
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Sure. His people are they whom the Father gave to Jesus (John 6:37). I thought you said you read the whole book?
You must qualify the word "all". I've already alluded that they are the elect whom the Father "drew" and given to Jesus in John 6:44, and John 6:37.
BTW, John 6:44 is the only way that anyone can become saved!
To God Be The Glory
From our side of it, yes.
John 12:39-40
39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them."
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
God gives sufficient grace to enable sinners to respond positively to Him and extends His offer of salvation to all.
Mat 5:44-45 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (45) That you may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makes his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Act 17:24-27 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands; (25) Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he gives to all life, and breath, and all things; (26) And has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; (27) That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
God gives efficient grace to effect regeneration in all those who have no will or desire to resist His calling them, meaning His efficient grace is irresistible to those whom the Holy Spirit is able quicken.
Joh 6:35-40 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that comes to me shall never hunger; and he that believes on me shall never thirst. (36) But I said unto you, That you also have seen me, and believe not. (37) All that the Father gives me shall come to me; and him that comes to me I will in no wise cast out. (38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. (39) And this is the Father's will which has sent me, that of all which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This is what I call "cherry picking", that is, pulling verses out without giving the full context. But, even with that, the very verses you quote tell us who the father gives Jesus. It's right here:"that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Who is given to Jesus? Those who believe on him. There's nothing here about grace being irresistible, you just read it that way because of your Calvinism.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
I haven't read one post in this thread, not wanting to get involved in another long winded debate. I just wanted to make one answer to the original question ... Saved or predestined?
I don't think it's an option between the two. It's both. I think the reason we are saved is in order that God may carry out His predestined purpose in recreating those who are saved into the image of His Son.
KJV Romans 8
Nothing Can Separate Us From God's Love
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
I don't think it's an option between the two. It's both. I think the reason we are saved is in order that God may carry out His predestined purpose in recreating those who are saved into the image of His Son.
KJV Romans 8
Nothing Can Separate Us From God's Love
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
And that's what I thought you'd say. While Jeremiah is referring to Israel, it is to all the exiles whom God have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon in the days of Jeremiah, not as you say there "we are Israel". A clear misuse of scriptures.
Tong
R0501
I am not trying to convince Renniks sir. I believe it is the Holy Spirit who convince, convicts, and converts.
Tong
R0502
No reply to what Jesus said?
If we are Israel, in what sense do the promises to Israel not apply to us?
With regards the grace of salvation, that is, Jesus Christ, He was not offered, but was given.
Tong
R0503
In answer to your question "Can you tell me who his people are?", I'll tell you who they are not, that is, His people are not all of mankind.
Tong
R0504
I agree with JunChosen. "All" must be qualified. And yes, it aint' complicated.
Tong
R0506
No, they are those who choose him. " Whosever believes" then becomes one of his.
To people who had rejected him as Messiah. To people who had accepted him as Messiah. To anyone who would listen.
Mt. 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”
Jesus came to save His people, distinguished from the rest of mankind. The people referred to in scriptures who are His people, are the children of God, the children of promise, whom God had chosen to be His people, whom the Father had given to the Son to raise up at the last day.
And yes, them whom the Father gave the Son, are they who will come to Jesus Christ, that is, believe in Him. Scriptures had said:
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Tong
R0507
If one is faithful to the scriptures where Jesus preached "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.", He was preaching to the people of Israel.
Tong
R0508
Behold
Well-Known Member
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