What The Great Tribulation Really Is

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Bobby Jo

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The Daniel 9 Scripture isn't that difficult to understand. ...

Oh wise one, then please answer:

1.a. Are the "weeks" in the usual CONCISE Feminine Diction as found in ALL the rest of the OT; or the INCONCISE Masculine diction as found ONLY in the 9th Chapter, and not in the 10th Chapter?
1.b. If the CONCISE = 490, then does the INCONCISE ≠490?

2.a. If Daniel "perceived" in the "books" did he use the simple "shama" as though he had simply read the Book of Jeremiah; or did he use the same "biyn" where GOD gave Solomon such "biyn" (Solomon Wisdom) that no man before him and no man after him shall have such "biyn"?
2.b. And where "biyn" is Solomon Wisdom, is there a different "book" which might have an end-time interpretation (Dan. 12:4 & 9) for the "seventy" periods of time?

... I could go on and on, but I know you're really not interested and only disparage Scripture which you don't know.
Bobby Jo
 

marks

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However, if the word "the" was used, and the word "wicked" was with the lower case "w", then the entire context of 2 Thes. would be interpreted in perfect harmony, and in the plural.

upload_2020-6-18_15-29-13.png

Actually, it's still singular. I agree, the translation could be closer, as the word translated "that" is actually "the" and the word translated "wicked" is actually anomos. "ho anomos", the lawless (one)". But not plural.

Much love!
 

Keraz

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You are missing that the 6th Seal has 2 parts. Your just noting that "great earthquake" phrase has you jumping immediately to the day of the Lord with God's cup of wrath.
I disagree with your idea.
There is no hint of 2 parts to the Sixth Seal. As many other prophesies tell us that Day is a literal 24 hour period, one rotation of the earth.
The idea of "untimely figs" is about the winter fig that grows in the winter and drops off in the spring. The Message here is about a FALSE COMING OF CHRIST by the Antichrist, which the stars falling to earth is the future event Revelation 12:7-9, which will begin the time of the very end.
Positively weird!
There is a good explanation for the metaphor of figs falling. It all happens on that single day.
At that point the wicked will actually see... The Father in Heaven sitting upon His throne. That only happens on the last day of this world with Christ's 2nd coming.
The last day of this world, will be at the final wash up; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

As for people saying; Hide us from the Lamb...... Rev 6:12-17 does not say anyone will actually see God then.
 

Davy

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Oh wise one, then please answer:

1.a. Are the "weeks" in the usual CONCISE Feminine Diction as found in ALL the rest of the OT; or the INCONCISE Masculine diction as found ONLY in the 9th Chapter, and not in the 10th Chapter?
1.b. If the CONCISE = 490, then does the INCONCISE ≠490?

2.a. If Daniel "perceived" in the "books" did he use the simple "shama" as though he had simply read the Book of Jeremiah; or did he use the same "biyn" where GOD gave Solomon such "biyn" (Solomon Wisdom) that no man before him and no man after him shall have such "biyn"?
2.b. And where "biyn" is Solomon Wisdom, is there a different "book" which might have an end-time interpretation (Dan. 12:4 & 9) for the "seventy" periods of time?

... I could go on and on, but I know you're really not interested and only disparage Scripture which you don't know.
Bobby Jo

Boy, that really helps people to understand the Daniel 9 Scripture, now doesn't it.

One does not have to be a language scholar to understand God's Word. There is NO PRIVATE monopoly of God's Word today. There is NO MORE PRIESTHOOD like the Levitical priesthood in Jesus' day.
 

Randy Kluth

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I already showed how many of the early Church fathers saw the signs in Matt.24 linked with the subject of the coming Antichrist that Apostle Paul covered in 2 Thess.2. It's mainly the 2 Thess.2 signs that most all of them agreed was still future to their day.

Most all Christian futurists, including myself, believe that the "false Christs" Jesus predicted would come will eventually lead to the Antichrist himself! What's your point?

How many of the Church Fathers actually believed the Abomination of Desolation was the Antichrist? How many of them believed the AoD was the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD? How many believed that both were true?

Can you tell us what the Church Fathers believed was the "Great Tribulation" in Luke 21.23? Most of the Church Fathers believed, as I understand it, that the 70th Week of Dan 9 was fulfilled in the time of Christ and in the desolation of Jerusalem that followed. That ties their understanding of Dan 9 together with their understanding of Luke 21. The "Great Tribulation" had to be, for them, the tribulation of the Jewish People that only began in 70 AD!

Of course they would also believe in a future Antichrist, as well as in a future coming of Christ! This does not mean that the Olivet Discourse did not, for them, refer to the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem. This did not at all mean they rejected the Great Tribulation of Luke 21.23 as the Jewish Diaspora of NT history. Clearly, they saw a dispersion of the Jews that began after 70 AD! Antichrist would come later.
 

Davy

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I disagree with your idea.
There is no hint of 2 parts to the Sixth Seal. As many other prophesies tell us that Day is a literal 24 hour period, one rotation of the earth.

Bad analogy, that 24 hours idea. The Seals of Rev.6 is about info for events to occur at the end of this world, not how long a period of day is. You simply don't see the symbolic references to those stars falling to earth, like in Rev.12 that I showed you, nor do you have a explanation for that 'untimely figs' idea there either, otherwise you would understand what I wrote.

Positively weird!
There is a good explanation for the metaphor of figs falling. It all happens on that single day.

Nah, you don't have a clue what that untimely figs idea is about. That is why you would say that analogy is weird. The untimely fig is a real event in fig horticulture, called a 'winter-fig'. There is also a sweet fig called the Smyrna fig, and there's a bitter fig called the Caprice and nicknamed the 'goat' fig. It's horticulture, ya know, God's creation.

The last day of this world, will be at the final wash up; AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

The "last day" Biblically is the final day of this present... world when Jesus returns. That is also when the resurrection happens as written. Christ's future "thousand years" begins on the last day of this present world. The day of His coming starts the world to come, but it will still not yet be the new heavens, and a new earth. The new heavens and a new earth won't happen until Satan, death, and hell are cast into the "lake of fire" after God's Great White throne judgment.

As for people saying; Hide us from the Lamb...... Rev 6:12-17 does not say anyone will actually see God then.

Afraid it does say that.

Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV


The throne which Jesus is to inherit is an earthly throne, not The Father's throne in Heaven. So anyone seeing God on His throne in Heaven is... seeing The Father in Heaven. That reveals at this point the veil of the flesh has been removed for all peoples, as all eyes will see Christ coming in the clouds.

It's not like some big mystery about the heavens being opened up on that day for the nations, it's written in God's Word...

Matt 26:64
64 Jesus saith unto him, 'Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.'

KJV

2 Thess 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
KJV


Matt 24:30
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

KJV

Isa 25:5-9
5 Thou shalt bring down the noise of strangers, as the heat in a dry place; even the heat with the shadow of a cloud: the branch of the terrible ones shall be brought low.
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.

8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, 'Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'
KJV
 

Keraz

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Bad analogy, that 24 hours idea
Not an analogy at all. Pure unadulterated Bible prophecy:
Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8
The untimely fig is a real event in fig horticulture,
So the Lord was giving us a horticulture lesson?
The "last day" Biblically is the final day of this present... world when Jesus returns.
The 'last day' is the final day of God's Plan for mankind. Which is at the end of the Millennium, at the Judgment of everyone.
So anyone seeing God on His throne in Heaven is... seeing The Father in Heaven.
Where is heaven then?
God was in the Garden of Eden. People standing on the earth have seen God on His Throne; Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56
They will again in Revelation 7. Then after it all, God and His Throne will come to dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7
Isaiah 25:8 obviously prophesies about that time.

At the Return of Jesus, as you quote; every eye will see Jesus, Revelation 1:7, why post verses on this event?
Afraid it does say that.
Please Davy; read the plain Words. Revelation 6:16 does NOT say those people who hide, will actually see God.
Proved by the many prophesies about that terrible Day, saying the Lord will not be seen. Habakkuk 3:4 Psalms 18:11, Psalms 11:4-6,
 

Davy

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Not an analogy at all. Pure unadulterated Bible prophecy:
Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8

God's destruction event is indeed on a certain 'day', called the "day of the Lord", the LAST day of this world, which is when Jesus returns, for He said He comes "as a thief" (Rev.16:15). But the usage of the word 'day' does not have to mean a 24 hour period for that event, because it is written in some cases that it will occur at an instant, suddenly, and that certainly is not a 24 hour period. So it's your 24 hour argument that doesn't fit, that I was speaking of.

So the Lord was giving us a horticulture lesson?

Most definitely. The untimely figs (winter-figs) idea is part of the parable of the fig tree. The winter fig grows in the winter but falls off early in the spring. What might that symbolize regarding the coming Antichrist for the end, and particularly in relation to the Revelation 12 subject of the red dragon drawing a third of the stars to earth, and then the Revelation 12:7-9 event of the dragon being cast out of heaven to earth with his angels for the end?

The 'last day' is the final day of God's Plan for mankind. Which is at the end of the Millennium, at the Judgment of everyone.

That's not correct, and it's easy to know because of the many Scriptures that speak of the resurrection on the day of Christ's return, particularly in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15. The last day of this present world will happen when Jesus returns. It is at His return on the "day of the Lord" when His "thousand years" reign with His elect of Rev.20 will begin.

Where is heaven then?
God was in the Garden of Eden. People standing on the earth have seen God on His Throne; Ezekiel 1:1, Acts 7:56
They will again in Revelation 7. Then after it all, God and His Throne will come to dwell with mankind. Revelation 21:1-7
Isaiah 25:8 obviously prophesies about that time.

When Jesus returns, everyone on earth will have the vail of this flesh removed. The Heavenly dimension will be opened up to all. That is how all eyes will see Christ coming in the clouds like Rev.1 says, even those who pierced Him, which is put for the orthodox Jews.

The Isaiah 25 prophecy is where Apostle Paul was pulling from in 1 Corinthians 15 about the 'change' at the "twinkling of an eye" to the "spiritual body" on the "last trump", speaking of death being swallowed up in victory. Because we are told at the end of Revelation that there will be no more death, that shows that death is an aberration of God's original creation. It is not something He caused. It is something Satan caused, which is why "Death" is also one of Satan's many titles (Rev.6:8).

At the Return of Jesus, as you quote; every eye will see Jesus, Revelation 1:7, why post verses on this event?

Because it's a reference pointing to the heavenly dimension being opened up for all to see on that day of His return. I showed you the Rev.6 Scripture that shows the wicked on earth seeing the Father on His throne in Heaven on that 6th Seal, which His cup of wrath getting ready to be poured out. Why won't you believe that as written? I even showed you another Scripture example of that with the wicked seeing The Son on the right hand of power (i.e., God's throne) coming in the clouds (Matthew 26:64). The unbelieving Jews is who Jesus told that to.

Please Davy; read the plain Words. Revelation 6:16 does NOT say those people who hide, will actually see God.
Proved by the many prophesies about that terrible Day, saying the Lord will not be seen. Habakkuk 3:4 Psalms 18:11, Psalms 11:4-6,

You should read Matthew 26:64 again.

Ps 110:1
110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, "Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
KJV

Acts 7:55
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
KJV
 

Bobby Jo

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The Daniel 9 Scripture isn't that difficult to understand. ...

Bobby Jo said:
Oh wise one, then please answer:

1.a. Are the "weeks" in the usual CONCISE Feminine Diction as found in ALL the rest of the OT; or the INCONCISE Masculine diction as found ONLY in the 9th Chapter, and not in the 10th Chapter?
1.b. If the CONCISE = 490, then does the INCONCISE ≠490?

2.a. If Daniel "perceived" in the "books" did he use the simple "shama" as though he had simply read the Book of Jeremiah; or did he use the same "biyn" where GOD gave Solomon such "biyn" (Solomon Wisdom) that no man before him and no man after him shall have such "biyn"?
2.b. And where "biyn" is Solomon Wisdom, is there a different "book" which might have an end-time interpretation (Dan. 12:4 & 9) for the "seventy" periods of time?

Boy, that really helps people to understand the Daniel 9 Scripture, now doesn't it.

One does not have to be a language scholar to understand God's Word.

Apparently Walvoord DID rely on a LANGUAGE SCHOLAR, THREE to be exact, -- Young, of the "Young's Concordance", -- who in turn cited Keil and Kliefoth as in agreement.

And where you dismiss the LITERAL TEXT of Scripture, YOU DISMISS SCRIPTURE.

But of such are the dishonest, who pursue a dishonest agenda while slandering, and refusing to answer what Scripture says.
Bobby Jo
 

Keraz

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God's destruction event is indeed on a certain 'day', called the "day of the Lord", the LAST day of this world, which is when Jesus returns, for He said He comes "as a thief" (Rev.16:15). But the usage of the word 'day' does not have to mean a 24 hour period for that event, because it is written in some cases that it will occur at an instant, suddenly, and that certainly is not a 24 hour period. So it's your 24 hour argument that doesn't fit, that I was speaking of.
I gave 4 scriptures that state the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will happen on just one 24hr day.
I also gave 3 scriptures that say the Lord will not be seen on that day.
Happy to ignore them?

If you mix up the Day of wrath with the Return, then you must say prophesies like Amos 5:18-20 and Amos 1:1-15, 2:1-5, will happen then. Neither sensible or likely!
Note well that Revelation 15:1 proves your belief wrong.
 

Bobby Jo

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I gave 4 scriptures that state the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will happen on just one 24hr day. ...

I'm reminded of the verse, straining gnats and swallowing camels, where you can't find the YEAR of Jesus' return, but you know exactly what will happen in a 24 hr day.

For me, the IMPORTANT consideration is where we are in time. Are we 20 years from Jesus' return; 10 years; 5 years? If so then why should we work while it still day when we have "all the time in the world".

Conversely, if we're ONE YEAR until we can't buy or sell; and Jesus will return 6 months subsequent, -- WE'D BETTER GET BUSY WITH THE TASKS AT HAND, and worry about the purported 24 hr day when it comes. Because we CAN PREPARE FOR THE FUTURE, but we can't change the future. So DO THE THINGS WE CAN, and leave what we can't to GOD.


Bobby Jo
 

Davy

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Apparently Walvoord DID rely on a LANGUAGE SCHOLAR, THREE to be exact, -- Young, of the "Young's Concordance", -- who in turn cited Keil and Kliefoth as in agreement.

And where you dismiss the LITERAL TEXT of Scripture, YOU DISMISS SCRIPTURE.

But of such are the dishonest, who pursue a dishonest agenda while slandering, and refusing to answer what Scripture says.
Bobby Jo

I haven't dismissed Scripture, that's YOUR take. And the dishonest agenda is yours, because you're only using the idea of textual critics to attempt to change what the Daniel 9 Scripture says.
 

Davy

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I gave 4 scriptures that state the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will happen on just one 24hr day.
I also gave 3 scriptures that say the Lord will not be seen on that day.
Happy to ignore them?

I haven't ignored anything except... your misuse of OT Scripture that is actually about the last day of this world when God's consuming fire will happen on the "day of the Lord" WITH Christ's 2nd coming.

If you mix up the Day of wrath with the Return, then you must say prophesies like Amos 5:18-20 and Amos 1:1-15, 2:1-5, will happen then. Neither sensible or likely!
Note well that Revelation 15:1 proves your belief wrong.

I'm not the one mixing, it's you that are wrongly 'dividing' the Scripture into multiple times just like what the Pre-tribulational rapturists do with more than one gathering and return of Jesus!

Like I have said many times before, Jesus said in Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial, to His Church on earth, that He comes "as a thief".

In 1 Thess.5 and 2 Peter 3:10, both said the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".

Anyone that can read can see that "as a thief" metaphor is the same "as a thief in the night" metaphor.

But we don't have to guess at that. Jesus made it more simple in the Zechariah 14 Scripture where He emphatically showed His coming back to the Mount of Olives on the "day of the Lord".

So you need to stop bearing false witness against me, when it is you with your false idea of God's consuming fire on the day of the Lord being years prior to Jesus' return.
 

Dave Watchman

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Oh wise one, then please answer:

1.a. Are the "weeks" in the usual CONCISE Feminine Diction as found in ALL the rest of the OT; or the INCONCISE Masculine diction as found ONLY in the 9th Chapter, and not in the 10th Chapter?
1.b. If the CONCISE = 490, then does the INCONCISE ≠490?

2.a. If Daniel "perceived" in the "books" did he use the simple "shama" as though he had simply read the Book of Jeremiah; or did he use the same "biyn" where GOD gave Solomon such "biyn" (Solomon Wisdom) that no man before him and no man after him shall have such "biyn"?
2.b. And where "biyn" is Solomon Wisdom, is there a different "book" which might have an end-time interpretation (Dan. 12:4 & 9) for the "seventy" periods of time?

The plural is employed until vs 27 where the one week [the 70th] is mentioned. Thus the plural seems similar to our putting an 's' on the end of a word. 70 week(s); 7 week(s) 62 week(s) 1 week(no s)

The 'indefinite' aspect to the words indicates to me that it's intending that the prophecy is not declared an actual week of 7 days, but is allowed to be a week of 7 years. This is the understanding and interpretation of the KJV translators and many others.

'...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word 'sevens' is employed in an unusual sense.’'

'...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.'

John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217​

Furthermore Young proceeded to observe that this Masculine text is only found in the 9th Chapter of Daniel, and the Feminine is used in the 10th Chapter and all other citations in Scripture.

However, none of your responses refute the Masculine text as cited by Young, Keil, & Kliefoth (as documented per Walvoord), and your "1,000s" are conspicuously absent. So for now all I can suggest is that the experts are unable to unravel the mystery of this Chapter. Does this suggest there is no answer? God forbid. There IS an answer, and both Scripture and history confirm the true fulfillment. - (from the other forum).

For me, the IMPORTANT consideration is where we are in time. Are we 20 years from Jesus' return; 10 years; 5 years? If so then why should we work while it still day when we have "all the time in the world".

Conversely, if we're ONE YEAR until we can't buy or sell; and Jesus will return 6 months subsequent, -- WE'D BETTER GET BUSY WITH THE TASKS AT HAND, and worry about the purported 24 hr day when it comes. Because we CAN PREPARE FOR THE FUTURE, but we can't change the future. So DO THE THINGS WE CAN, and leave what we can't to GOD.

That's the best thing I heard you say.

I found your other thread from 2012.

Those were some smart guys you took on.

Intellectuals.

But even reading those 20 pages, I still can't figure out what you are talking about.

I wish you would just write it out in plain English and be done with it

Your count of the weeks, and my count of the weeks are different counts.

But it brings us to this same time zone.

Where we are about now.

Spooky stuff.

Peaceful Sabbath.
 

Keraz

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I haven't ignored anything except... your misuse of OT Scripture that is actually about the last day of this world when God's consuming fire will happen on the "day of the Lord" WITH Christ's 2nd coming.
There are over 100 Bible prophesies that describe the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth seal worldwide disaster.
There are 3 main prophesies about the Return of Jesus, as Acts 1:11 says; will be in the same manner as how He Ascended.
None of those 3; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11, say He will come in fire.

Their are plainly; two Days of the Lord to come. As there has been Days of the Lord in the past.
Note that the Return is called the Great Day of God Almighty. Revelation 16:14
Like I have said many times before, Jesus said in Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial, to His Church on earth, that He comes "as a thief".
In my REBible, Rev 16:15 is in 'parenthesis'. It is an admonition for us to remain strong in our faith thru all that must happen, to keep on our garments of righteousness.
That the 'coming as a thief' does not apply the the glorious Return, is proved by how anyone with a Bible can read Revelation 12:6-12 where it says Satan is thrown down to the earth for 1260 days. This is the exact time of his world control until Jesus comes, wipes out his armies and chains him up. Revelation 20:1-2
Will you accept these Bible truths or are you so committed to your beliefs that you have to reject them?
 

Jay Ross

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Will you accept these Bible truths or are you so committed to your beliefs that you have to reject them?

Keraz, if someone must accept your "Bible Truths", then the argument can be put on the other foot, in that you are rejecting other peoples understanding of Bible truths from their perspective.

Now if @Davy rejects your "Bible Truths, and you reject his Bible Truths, then can I assume that you are both saying that both of your "Bible Truths" should be rejected because you both reject the other's POV.
 

Davy

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There are over 100 Bible prophesies that describe the Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth seal worldwide disaster.
There are 3 main prophesies about the Return of Jesus, as Acts 1:11 says; will be in the same manner as how He Ascended.
None of those 3; Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30 and Revelation 19:11, say He will come in fire.

Uh oh, you forgot about this one...

2 Thess 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
KJV

I made it BIG just in case you're having trouble with your eyeglasses.

There's even examples of that in the Old Testament prophets, which you claim isn't there...

Isa 29:5-7
5 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly.

6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.
KJV


That is about God's consuming fire in the area of Jerusalem on the last day of this world at Christ's 2nd coming. It will destroy Antichrist's armies that will have Jerusalem surrounded for the tribulation, and Zechariah 14:16-17 are who those are about that surround Jerusalem on that last day of this world.
 

Davy

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Keraz, if someone must accept your "Bible Truths", then the argument can be put on the other foot, in that you are rejecting other peoples understanding of Bible truths from their perspective.

Now if @Davy rejects your "Bible Truths, and you reject his Bible Truths, then can I assume that you are both saying that both of your "Bible Truths" should be rejected because you both reject the other's POV.

Funny!
 

Keraz

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Jun 20, 2018
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That is about God's consuming fire in the area of Jerusalem on the last day of this world at Christ's 2nd coming. It will destroy Antichrist's armies that will have Jerusalem surrounded for the tribulation, and Zechariah 14:16-17 are who those are about that surround Jerusalem on that last day of this world.
1 Thessalonians 1:6-10 is NOT referring to the Return of Jesus. Note in verse 10, that Jesus will be revealed to His own people, as Revelation 14:1 says. NOT to the world as yet.
That prophecy and Isaiah 29:5-7, plus over 100 other graphic descriptions, are all about the Lords Day of wrath. Revelation 6:12-17 Jesus does not come in fire at His Return. He destroys the attacking armies at Armageddon by the Sword of His Word.

These are Bible truths that everyone would do well to study and place correctly in their end times sequence.