At A Crossroad...

DNB · Jun 19, 2020

FHII said:
I am at a crossroads on how I feel about Christian forums and if I want to participate any longer. I am starting to feel I don't belong on them. My views and values are just too different.
1. I believe in Jesus Christ.
2. I believe the Bible is his word.
3. I believe that Christians should go to Church.
4. I believe Churches should have a government structure.
5. I believe Christians should be givers.

I know that many aren't following God's plan.

Hi FHII, to be honest, I find it hard to believe that the points that you cited are that controversial, or at least, would be met with such contention or adversity, that would overwhelm you in one manner or another? They just don't seem to be that unorthodox or unconventional to me, to the point that, off-hand, I agree with them all, and I see that others have said the same thing? But, in my opinion, you have OP'd some rather radical views, as in two creations from God (humankind vs Adam/Eve), and I forget the others. ...very, very sorry if I'm mistaken on these, and have you confused with someone else? If I'm correct, then it's rather naive of you to not expect vehement confrontation.
I don't believe in the Trinity, nor any form of deifying Jesus, nor personalizing the Holy Spirit. I'm rather assertive and, at times, imposing about my views on this. That yes, especially on a forum that has a triquetra as its logo, I expect contention and accusations of heresy. ...awareness (and conviction) is half the battle.

Either way, as far as Christian Forums are concerned, I have learned a great deal here in one manner or another. I've learnt about the diversity of 'Christian' views out there, and all their permutations. Others have brought up details and points that I've overlooked all these years. They've challenged me to defend my positions, both Biblically, reasonably and articulately. I've admired the knowledge, perception and wisdom of many on the site, ...as have I equally cringed and denounced the views of countless others also.

These forums are useful in the right and disciplined measure, and with an educational objective. ...for example, I don't believe that solely a socializing or fellowshipping intent is advisable, at least not on the debate forums.

Brakelite · Jun 19, 2020

historyb said:
We will have to disagree. I believe the biggest myth is evangelicalism where every man can figure things out for themselves

Indeed, that is a myth. And it's another you are perpetuating. Evangelicalism doesn't believe a man can figure out anything on his own any more than you do. They also have teachers and pastors, and if anyone of them has any sense, which I believe some do but perhaps not all, they will compare what those teachers and pastors teach with the scriptures. If they differ, then....
But you would have us believe that all the teachers and priests down through the ages were correct and faultless and it unnecessary, even evil, to dare compare their teachings with scripture. Thus was established the inquisitions. This was established wars against entire Nations that were considered heretics... Not heretics against scripture, but heretics against church traditions and church authority... Against those so called infallible and faultless Popes and priests who themselves waged war against one another for power, prestige, and wealth. And looted and ground under foot those who would dare to speak up and protest. And here you are doing the very same as they and claiming it to be true Christian faith and practice. You need to take a good long hard look at yourself and the God you profess to believe in.

Brakelite · Jun 19, 2020

Brakelite2 said:
You seem to be using him to trip up those that do

mjrhealth said:
Only to the religious,

The only Christ I know is this one

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

but seems many have chosen there "religions" way, like this man,

Mat 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

My case rests.

prism · Jun 19, 2020

historyb said:
Scriptures were not around for the first four hundred years yet there were many Christians. Even without the Bible I could still be a Christian but I am willing to wager many would not be, the Bible doesn't produce saving Faith God does through hearing.

So you discount the first 39 Books (Gen-Malachi) as not being Scripture?

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
(Luk 24:27)

mjrhealth · Jun 19, 2020

Brakelite2 said:
My case rests.

Must be a heavy one. Funny how if you tell people to go to church they happy, tell them join SDA church SDA happy, tell them to join RC church RC happy, tell them to join JW church JW happy, suggest they go to Christ and the whole world explodes, but God always knew it would be this way.

PS if your case is heavy.

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I guess He rests His case, pity so few choose it.

historyb · Jun 19, 2020

prism said:
So you discount the first 39 Books (Gen-Malachi) as not being Scripture?

And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
(Luk 24:27)

Never said that. Scripture was not around as we know it. Just know I will never agree with you all and I know the hatred that I get here for following the faith of the Apostles and not of my own. I will respond no longer

prism · Jun 19, 2020

historyb said:
Never said that. Scripture was not around as we know it. Just know I will never agree with you all and I know the hatred that I get here for following the faith of the Apostles and not of my own. I will respond no longer

When you said, "Scriptures were not around for the first four hundred years" you realized, after I pointed out, "So you discount the first 39 Books (Gen-Malachi) as not being Scripture?" that you were wrong and modified your statement to "Scripture was not around as we know it".
Well what was different between Scripture then and Scripture now?
The faith of the Apostles were written down for all of us in the New Testament. I hope we all 'follow the faith of the Apostles...and the Prophets' as we find in Holy Scripture.

Brakelite · Jun 19, 2020

mjrhealth said:
Must be a heavy one. Funny how if you tell people to go to church they happy, tell them join SDA church SDA happy, tell them to join RC church RC happy, tell them to join JW church JW happy, suggest they go to Christ and the whole world explodes, but God always knew it would be this way.

PS if your case is heavy.

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I guess He rests His case, pity so few choose it.

Well, that would all be well and good if it were founded in fact. It isn't. I have only defended my church, yes, the Seventh Day Adventist Church when people have criticised it's doctrines. I then defend them by showing how those doctrines are derived from scripture. I don't believe I have once encouraged anyone publicly on this forum or any forum, to join my church.
I have testified on this forum, that not all SDA Churches are worth joining. They are comprised of people, and people are flawed. But I do belong to a congregation, but even that is not exactly 'local' because I don't like the one closer to my home.
But one thing I am utterly certain of. Which you choose to completely ignore. That one thing is that I came to Christ 43 years ago, and it had nothing to do with the SDA Church. It was Christ, and Christ alone who through various avenues and circumstances, led me to where I am today. Even though circumstances that in the eyes of a disinterested bystander would look totally illogical and flawed. But I know God was in it. There was no other explanation. So keep telling me I don't know Christ if you like... That my trust is in religion, whatever. Keep trying to use Christ to trip up a fellow Christian if that is your desire. I wish you well.

aspen · Jun 20, 2020

Brakelite2 said:
Perhaps you might want to look at why God raised up those Sola churches and the long unlimited apostate history of the mainline churches... I'm grateful I did.

I've done plenty of research, thanks!

Stumpmaster · Jun 20, 2020

FHII said:
I am at a crossroads on how I feel about Christian forums and if I want to participate any longer. I am starting to feel I don't belong on them. My views and values are just too different. I've already quit one forum. Maybe perminantly, maybe not. I will try to be brief, and maybe you can see my frustrations.

Hi FHII
It would be interesting to know why you have in fact spent time on any Christian Forums. I find them useful because they motivate me to "search the Scriptures to see if it is so" just as the Bereans did after hearing from Paul and Silas.

Act 17:10-11 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. (11) These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Much of what takes place in institutional denominational assemblies is artificial and superficial. These entities are pagan rather than Scriptural and little wonder many are done with them. For decades with monotonous regularity among institutional denominational congregations whilst active in numerous capacities including leadership, I have found myself ministering in groups or on teams with people devoid of any spark of friendship towards me, being variously patronising, unappreciative, critical, derogatory, adversarial, and antagonistic, all of which I overlooked for the greater good of building up the body of Christ.

Compared to some of the stuff I endured whilst on "church boards" and in "church offices" Christian Forums are a breeze.

mjrhealth · Jun 20, 2020

Brakelite2 said:
I then defend them by showing how those doctrines are derived from scripture

So do all the other religions, what makes your right and theres wrong, they all preach out of the same bible. Youll criticize there, they will criticize yours , but none will leave for Him. This bit

Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

men love there religions so few willing to follow Christ, prefer to follow after men

Mar 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

So few will be ready.

bbyrd009 · Jun 20, 2020

Enoch111 said:
OK. I believe that Jesus is GOD. Do you?

well, i believe that, yes, only im hearing that diff than you are i guess, i mean we could take a look at some vv i guess you wouldnt engage much prolly but I said "you are elohim" basically. That "God" is...prolly not the best address from our position, likely a bad translation, and reveals ones perspective as well would be a good thread subject i guess, i mean do you mean theos? YHWH? Elohim? Which, exactly? Could you Quote the v that generated your belief?

Taken · Jun 20, 2020

="FHII, post: 771443, member: 3789

1. I believe in Jesus Christ.

Excellent! Your posts have never to my knowledge reflected otherwise.
I believe IN Christ Jesus, and am IN Him, and He IN me.
Being IN, was Jesus' Offering, Accepting the Offering IS the individual's Acceptance.
And that defines a NEW Unique Brotherhood Jesus Established.
I account you as a brother, and hope you think the same toward me.

2. I believe the Bible is his word

Click to expand...

I agree Jesus IS the Word of God, Expressly for man's Benefit, to hear, learn, the WAY and Order of God, and For Verification of WHAT words come forth out of a man's mouth.

I also don't understand how people don't consider everything that was written but would rather drill just one verse without considering the whole scripture.

THAT is a condunrum.
While Every Word of Scripture is TRUE...Every Word of Scripture "does not Apply to Every Individual."
Only the Individual (and the Lord God Himself) Truly Knows What Scriptures Applies to the man.
(Others like to attempt to MAKE what does Not Apply...Apply)

3. I believe that Christians should go to Church.

Click to expand...

Yea, I said it! By that, I mean the should gather their physical bodies in one physical place.

"go"... This also is a condunrum.
Church's are buildings.
Christ's Church is a Unique group of people IN Christ, and He IN Them. (Whether or not the Father, Son and Individual ARE gathered with "other" individual members....)
The Father, Son and One individual; doing anything, any time, any place, "IN JESUS NAME," IS all Three, IN Church.

(In some respect, some individuals appear to have REPLACED, "Christ's Internal Church", and "HIS WORD", with man-made structures and men's unverifiable words.)

4. I believe Churches should have a government structure.

Click to expand...

Agree. Christ's Church does have government structure.
It's Called: WAY and ORDER (and the Defining Caveat )..."according TO" His WORD.

That's a pot lock dinner...

My take is similar: People rushing, concerned with their getting to Church, with their impressive appearance, instead of filling their gut and being prepared to Worship the Lord without the distraction of being hungry for food.

5. I believe Christians should be giver

Click to expand...

Agree, (with Jesus' Caveat)...
a Cheerful Giver; a lending hand...
Not a lifetime Enabler of sloth- FULLNESS.
Jesus' WAY hangs on Faith-FULLNESS.
(Which comes to a man, "by and through the Word of God"...NOT money, Burger King vouchers, fancy clothes, electronic gadgets, etc. ...which IS what many Poor Want Others to be Compelled to "give them".

Yet, I don't feel there is like feeling amongst boards in general. I don't feel many see these things as important.

"Christian" is a very confusing TERM to many.

There is a Huge difference BETWEEN an Individual WHO is "following after Jesus' word...and can STOP at ANY Time (Judah's our prime Example)
AND
An Individual Converted IN Christ...who IS KEPT IN Christ Forever (by the Power of God).

Both call "themselves" Christians...
and others called "them" Christians...

And THAT ^ is utterly confusing to the World at Large...unbelievers, other religions.

Just remember: Followers can be Temporary, Converted IS Permanent...and they all mix and mingle in Churches, on Social Media, in the public at Large...They calling themselves the Same Thing, or presuming they are the same thing...does not mean they Are the same thing; "Brothers Converted IN Christ."

Hope you don't leave the forum.

God Bless,
Glory to God,
Taken

Timtofly · Jun 20, 2020

FHII said:
Hello all:

I am at a crossroads on how I feel about Christian forums and if I want to participate any longer. I am starting to feel I don't belong on them. My views and values are just too different. I've already quit one forum. Maybe perminantly, maybe not. I will try to be brief, and maybe you can see my frustrations. Here is what I believe:

1. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the person, but also the things he said and did, and I believe in following his teachings, commandments and his ordinances.
2. I believe the Bible is his word. Jesus was the Word made flesh, but I believe the Written Word. Without the Bible, we don't know what Jesus said, did or ordained. It befuddles me how anyone could both attack it and support it at the same time.

I also don't understand how people don't consider everything that was written but would rather drill just one verse without considering the whole scripture.

3. I believe that Christians should go to Church. Yea, I said it! By that, I mean the should gather their physical bodies in one physical place. I also believe there should be order of some sort... In other words, it ain't a pot luck dinner!

4. I believe Churches should have a government structure. Yes, I said that too! It is dangerous, as Paul warned, but it is ordained by God. By no means do I mean it should be the monstrosity it's become. But the Bible does give guidelines... And they don't mean social gatherings where people eat hors de vors and children play with toys provided for them.... Or listen to teaching... Whatever they want to do...

That's a pot lock dinner... And it's stupid and unbiblical to the point that Paul said don't do it. Jesus said not to share children away...

[Sidenote: This is the point where some will chime in and say, "Well the people are the Church, not the building!". Duh? Tell me something I don't know, and when did I ever say anything about a building? I said the people assemble for "Church"]

5. I believe Christians should be givers. Not to the poor and needy, but directly for the teaching! If you have been taught... Give! Support those who teach his Word. A true Man of God will turn around and see that his congregation can make ends meet. Paul did both. He lived on offerings and he distributed them. He called for support of the ministry and likewise support for those in need.

I see a decay in these truths. This time, I didn't give one verse to support what I have said. I've been giving them for nearly 20 years. At least 9 years on this board. But I am happy to say I can give scripture for everything I have said.

Yet, I don't feel there is like feeling amongst boards in general. I don't feel many see these things as important.

I know that many aren't following God's plan. Frankly, I am a bit sad about that, but not too sad... He said it would happen. But just because the masses aren't following the plan doesn't mean the plan is wrong! It's still the way God wanted it done!

So, there's my delemna. Does anyone actually agree with these points I believe are important? They aren't all the things that need to be addressed, but it's a good start.

Do you believe in the command to spread the gospel to all the world?

ScottA · Jun 20, 2020

FHII said:
Hello all:

I am at a crossroads on how I feel about Christian forums and if I want to participate any longer. I am starting to feel I don't belong on them. My views and values are just too different. I've already quit one forum. Maybe perminantly, maybe not. I will try to be brief, and maybe you can see my frustrations. Here is what I believe:

1. I believe in Jesus Christ. I believe in the person, but also the things he said and did, and I believe in following his teachings, commandments and his ordinances.
2. I believe the Bible is his word. Jesus was the Word made flesh, but I believe the Written Word. Without the Bible, we don't know what Jesus said, did or ordained. It befuddles me how anyone could both attack it and support it at the same time.

I also don't understand how people don't consider everything that was written but would rather drill just one verse without considering the whole scripture.

3. I believe that Christians should go to Church. Yea, I said it! By that, I mean the should gather their physical bodies in one physical place. I also believe there should be order of some sort... In other words, it ain't a pot luck dinner!

4. I believe Churches should have a government structure. Yes, I said that too! It is dangerous, as Paul warned, but it is ordained by God. By no means do I mean it should be the monstrosity it's become. But the Bible does give guidelines... And they don't mean social gatherings where people eat hors de vors and children play with toys provided for them.... Or listen to teaching... Whatever they want to do...

That's a pot lock dinner... And it's stupid and unbiblical to the point that Paul said don't do it. Jesus said not to share children away...

[Sidenote: This is the point where some will chime in and say, "Well the people are the Church, not the building!". Duh? Tell me something I don't know, and when did I ever say anything about a building? I said the people assemble for "Church"]

5. I believe Christians should be givers. Not to the poor and needy, but directly for the teaching! If you have been taught... Give! Support those who teach his Word. A true Man of God will turn around and see that his congregation can make ends meet. Paul did both. He lived on offerings and he distributed them. He called for support of the ministry and likewise support for those in need.

I see a decay in these truths. This time, I didn't give one verse to support what I have said. I've been giving them for nearly 20 years. At least 9 years on this board. But I am happy to say I can give scripture for everything I have said.

Yet, I don't feel there is like feeling amongst boards in general. I don't feel many see these things as important.

I know that many aren't following God's plan. Frankly, I am a bit sad about that, but not too sad... He said it would happen. But just because the masses aren't following the plan doesn't mean the plan is wrong! It's still the way God wanted it done!

So, there's my delemna. Does anyone actually agree with these points I believe are important? They aren't all the things that need to be addressed, but it's a good start.

I don't see your dilemma. I mean, to let your light shine...do you really need to limit it to those who agree with you? I shouldn't think so.

bbyrd009 · Jun 20, 2020

Enoch111 said:
What upsets people is that mjrhealth sits in judgment over other Christians when he himself disagrees with Christ when it suits.

pot/kettle i guess, as Jesus Himself told you to only worship Yah right

FHII · Jun 20, 2020

I acknowledge all the feed back, and appreciate most of it. I am going to pick a few things to comment on.

Nancy said:
Though I do believe somebody can out grow a "Church". I go for fellowship and worship more so than the teachings. The only problem I find in a larger Church, is that as soon as the service is over, the place clears out pretty quick!

I partly understand that. There should be fellowship afterwards, and their should be intercourse throughout the week with fellow members. But unless the teaching is extremely week or false (in which point you should leave), you don't outgrow the teaching. In 2 Peter, he says several times you need to hear it again. Furthermore, not everyone is up to speed as you are. The basics need to be put forth for new members

Jane_Doe22 said:
. I try to avoid politics and/or bashing threads.

Yea, me too. But it's becoming increasingly difficult.

Enoch111 said:
But just because no one agrees with one's position should never be a deterrent to continue speaking the truth in love

Jesus told his disciples if they weren't received, to leave and shake the dust off their feet. He also said to leave the pharasees and their blind followers alone as they were the blind leading the blind.

But other than that, I agree.

FHII · Jun 20, 2020

aspen said:
i think we can outgrow message boards.

Well one can realize they are on unfruitful ground. But I said earlier you really don't outgrow a Church...not that message boards are one.

Enoch111 · Jun 20, 2020

ScottA said:
I don't see your dilemma. I mean, to let your light shine...do you really need to limit it to those who agree with you? I shouldn't think so.

Well said ScottA. Haven't seen you around for a while. And you and I disagree on a few things also. On the other hand, not everyone cares to be in conflicts.

Enoch111 · Jun 20, 2020

FHII said:
Jesus told his disciples if they weren't received, to leave and shake the dust off their feet.

That was in connection with unbelievers, not believers.

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