God's message on flying away to save our soul

Martin W. · Dec 1, 2009

Christ comes more than once.

When he comes and stands on The Mount Of Olives is different than when he comes for the church.

I have to leave now , I will try to get back tomorrow so we can look at some of the timing of trumpets etc.

Talk later

Martin.

n2thelight · Dec 1, 2009

Martin W.
Christ comes more than once.

Please show me where Christ comes more than once more...

as there can't be two 2nd comings,Christ came once,the next time will be the 2nd,please show me the 3rd...

lecoop · Dec 1, 2009

A professor at my college made a statement at the beginning of one semester. Since that was 40 some years ago, I will not give it word for word. But I still remember the idea of what he said.

"When establishing doctrine on any subject, first find the most complete writing on that subject, or, if there is not one place that has a more complete picture than another, find the latest verses on that subject, for God is a self revealing God, and over time, gives a more complete revelation. Therefore, later scriptures will give a clearer picture than older scriptures. Establish your doctrine from this most complete or latest scriptures, and then fill in missing pieces from the lessor scriptures."

If we follow his idea, of course the book of Revelation is the most complete thesis on the end times. And, it is the most recent of latest of all scriptures on the end times. So we must estabish the main points of our doctrine of end times there, not from other scriptures. We know there is a rapture or "catching up" of the church from Paul. Could we expect to find this in Revelation? Many people would immediately assume so. However, for the most part, the book of Revelation is concerning the Hebrews, not the Gentile church of which we are a part. Chapters 8 through 16 are entirely about their 70th week, of which we are not to take a part. Paul made it clear that we - the Gentile church - have NO appointment with His wrath. His wrath clearly begins with the opening of the 70th week. (Note, the seals are NOT a part of the 70th week.)

So IS the rapture seen in Revelation? Can we find any hint of the timing of the rapture there? Yes, God in His great wisdom and mercy knew we would have these arguments and so, left us some hints. John got to see the church in heaven, immediately following the rapture. He was in heaven, and so did not see the catching up.

So many get confused with the chronology of Revelation. But here is an axiom:

Any theory of end times that must re-arrange the God given chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

Prewrath doctine must do a LOT of rearranging. They have the time of great tribulation - before John has even started the 70th week.

So to find the timing of the rapture - in relation to the 70th week - one must first understand WHERE in Revelation the 70th week begins and ends. Most of the classical doctrines, i.e., pretrib, prewrath, and posttrib, have gotten this part wrong; they cannot identify the beginning of the 70th week. They cannnot identify the midpoint or the end either.

The 70th week begins with the 7th seal, and ends with the 7th vial. The exact midpoint is the 7th trumpet. God has "marked" the entire 70th week with sevens.

I know many will disagree so far, so we will hold the tiime of the rapture to another post.

Coop

forgivenWretch · Dec 1, 2009

Why is there so much focus on the end times instead of focusing on Christ. I for one am more interested in seeing Him than worrying about the end times.

HammerStone · Dec 1, 2009

Well, for those of us who believe in the post-trib, it comes down to Satan showing up as the false Messiah, the antiChrist (Gr. instead of). If you believe in a post-trib rapture and the pre-trib happens, so what? If you believe in the pre-trib rapture and the post-trib happens, what happens for those who have listened to the churches and not opened their Bibles to know the signs because they'll be raptured out? For some odd reason, many folks think he shows up with the title Antichrist written on his forehead, but the good book of Daniel says otherwise. He will deceive has he always has, and it always starts with Scripture.

Now I anticipate the usual argument against that being that Christians know better. Many do, I don't dispute that. As you say, if we focus on Christ and His Word, we'll then know the signs. That's my personal intention with my own actions and this community. I don't necessarily care if you agree, but I do care that you know the Scriptures about Christ's return, and know them well. Afterall, Christ told us "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things." (Mark 13:23)

There is so much of a focus on this topic, though, because the Scriptures are quite focused on it. Much of the Bible is prophecy, and the last book deals with nothing but this time when Christ returns (and the times leading up to it). The consummation of this age is very, very important. Recall the stories of our Savior's first advent, and how much misinformation existed about that advent?

That is why the feelings are, justifiably IMHO, strong.

forgivenWretch · Dec 1, 2009

Although I can understand where you are coming from, I do not believe that the end times should be our focus. In doing so, too many, loose sight of Christ and why we are here. It's so easy to get wrapped up in these things (which I fully agree are as you said very very important), but none the less I do not believe should be a main focus. It's so easy to get wrapped up and loose sight of Jesus. Focus on Him and not what might or might not happen. Not one of us has 100% assurance how the rapture will occur, only that it will.

As you said in your response,

I don't necessarily care if you agree, but I do care that you know the Scriptures about Christ's return

it's about His return. Why not focus on the glory and excitement we will have when we are called to Him. No more suffering, no more pain, no more dwelling on things that really do not matter.

Christina · Dec 1, 2009

Because as Dever points out its the season.. Now very soon is the time of the harvest and we are either going to be the first harvested which we are told not to be ..or wait til his coming he didnt spend a third of bible on this because it was trvial its the most important thing our generation needs to know

Why because there is a fake coming and we must be able to tell the differeance if you can not and you follow the fake ..just knowing about jesus wont do you a hill of beans ..we must know what he taught us ..not just that he came and will come again .... When,how where,what will the fake be doing what do we watch for ... This is what God wants you to know .... the cost of not knowing it is your soul ....

Martin W. · Dec 1, 2009

When done properly , these discussions can teach us a lot of things we may never have previously considered.

I learn a lot from folks who have an opposing view to mine. I consider what they say , look up the verses myself , and go from there. I have been doing this for 25 years. It is much better to be questioned by fellow christians , than to enter the last days unprepared.

It is only during the last 50 years the church has looked at prophecy with interest. By this measure it is a new subject for everybody. Thus the wide ranging views.

When we shut our minds to all possibilities , we have stopped learning. Keep in mind the "Old Testament experts" did not recognize Jesus when he came. They were expecting something different , a powerfull Messiah , not a crucified one.

Adstar · Dec 2, 2009

SwampFox said:
Not necessarily; the problem comes with how the word rapture is defined. If you define it as simply the rapture, Gr. harpazo then I don't think anyone will take issue with it. The problem is, rapture has come to mean explicitly the pretribulational rapture(pretrib), of which the Apostle Paul did not teach. We're basically in the midst of one of those word meaning shifts, so I think this may cause some confusion.

This is what i see also with the whole "rapture" issue. People who are against the "rapture" believe it to be nothing but a pre-tribulation rapture teaching. When in fact there are two distinct "rapture" beliefs. One Rre-tribulation and the other Post-tribulation. i have been involved in a lot of heart felt discussions with pre-tribbers over the years seeking to reveal the deception that they are being deceived by and are joining in the active deception of others. But the blanket statement that there is no rapture at all and that the word rapture does not exist in the bible just don't measure up with what the Bible states.

As for the word Rapture it is an English word derived from the Latin Rapio.

So the Bible does reveal a "Caught up" which was translated as Rapio in the Latin translation of the bible and this word was adopted by the English language and has been anglicised into the word Rapture. But even after that torturous path it still means "caught up"

1 Thessalonian 4
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So "caught up" is in the bible and "caught up" in Latin is "rap" and "rap" has been Anglicized into rapture. So Rapture = caught up.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Christina · Dec 2, 2009

yeah but you forgot the most important part Adstar the WHEN ...
and we are plainly told we are not gathered to the Lord until after the tribulation i.e. that man of sin at the 7th and last trump and not a second before ....

2 thess2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

this is anti christ

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

This is the abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel at mid week of the tribulation

The reason this post, pre is a problem is because any Post trib rapture is perhaps only seconds long Christ is decending to earth ..we are changed into spirit incorabtable bodies 1 Cor. 15:52

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

we are not going anywhere we are not taken away we simply will meet him as he is decending to earth

The problem is Rapture theroy isnt about meeting Christ its about being flown away somewhere to escape the tribulation and then being brought back to earth none of this is written
So its not the word rapture that is the problem its the whole concept of the theroy of some escape .... that we deny .....

the word Rapture has come to imply a whole conceptional theroy of escape and secret coming of the lord ....

not a just gathering to meet the lord in the air ....as he is descending to meet us

Adstar · Dec 3, 2009

yeah but you forgot the most important part Adstar the WHEN ...
andwe are plainly told we are not gathered to the Lord until after thetribulation i.e. that man of sin at the 7th and last trump and not asecond before ....

Thats just it Christina i do believe in a 7th trumpet rapture. If you go back and read my posts on the issue you will see this. So i am not forgetting anything.

As i said in the above post, i have often been in discussions with pre-tribbers doing my best to reveal why their doctrine is wrong.

Be assured i am not a pre-tribulation rapture believer.

The problem is Rapture theroy isnt about meeting Christ its about being flown away somewhere to escape the tribulation and then being brought back to earth none of this is written

That is pre-tribulation doctrine. It is not post-tribulation theory.

Post-tribulation believes that we will be caught up to meet Jesus as He is returning and we will be transformed in a twinkling of an eye and will be coming right back down with Him to rule the earth with him for 1000 years. Post -tribulation rapture is not an "escape theory"

All Praise The Ancent of Days

Christina · Dec 3, 2009

I wasnt intending to imply you believed any pre trib Adstar
only that you didnt mention a when in your post.

You missed the entire point of my post
I know Post trib and pre trib are entirley differnt....... that was my point
you were talking about the Word "Rapture"

I was pointing the Pre trib doctrine
is about not about whether the word is there or not ..

Pre trib is an Entire man made doctrine we call Rapture it not about a verse or a Word it is and entire concept of secret comings and escape thats not written

When we say there is no Rapture its this entire concept this entire doctrine thats is false ..

Post trib has no relation to the Rapture Doctrine .....its simply a quote of a verse

lecoop · Dec 9, 2009

Christina said:
I wasnt intending to imply you believed any pre trib Adstar
only that you didnt mention a when in your post.

You missed the entire point of my post
I know Post trib and pre trib are entirley differnt....... that was my point
you were talking about the Word "Rapture"

I was pointing the Pre trib doctrine
is about not about whether the word is there or not ..

Pre trib is an Entire man made doctrine we call Rapture it not about a verse or a Word it is and entire concept of secret comings and escape thats not written

When we say there is no Rapture its this entire concept this entire doctrine thats is false ..

Post trib has no relation to the Rapture Doctrine .....its simply a quote of a verse

Christiana wrote:
"Pre trib is an Entire man made doctrine we call Rapture it not about a verse or a Word it is and entire concept of secret comings and escape thats not written "

This is a very bold statement. Can you put scripture where your pen is, and PROVE this? Or are you just blowing smoke?

Coop

lecoop · Dec 9, 2009

Adstar said:
yeah but you forgot the most important part Adstar the WHEN ...
andwe are plainly told we are not gathered to the Lord until after thetribulation i.e. that man of sin at the 7th and last trump and not asecond before ....

Click to expand...

Thats just it Christina i do believe in a 7th trumpet rapture. If you go back and read my posts on the issue you will see this. So i am not forgetting anything.

As i said in the above post, i have often been in discussions with pre-tribbers doing my best to reveal why their doctrine is wrong.

Be assured i am not a pre-tribulation rapture believer.

The problem is Rapture theroy isnt about meeting Christ its about being flown away somewhere to escape the tribulation and then being brought back to earth none of this is written

Click to expand...

That is pre-tribulation doctrine. It is not post-tribulation theory.

Post-tribulation believes that we will be caught up to meet Jesus as He is returning and we will be transformed in a twinkling of an eye and will be coming right back down with Him to rule the earth with him for 1000 years. Post -tribulation rapture is not an "escape theory"

All Praise The Ancent of Days

"why their [pretrib] doctrine is wrong"

"Pre trib is an Entire man made doctrine we call Rapture it not about a verse or a Word it is and entire concept of secret comings and escape thats not written "

This is a very bold statement. Can you put scripture where your pen is, and PROVE this? Or are you just blowing smoke?

Coop

Christina · Dec 9, 2009

you mean prove its man made ? yes, more importantly the concept of pre trib is it not written in the Bible.
No one has ever proved it. The weak things they say might imply it are easily disproved to anyone caring to really investigate scripture. That's why its called a theory there is no evidence.
It was started by the dream of a girl in 1830 and if you can prove different there's a 1000 dollar reward for you
http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm

lecoop · Dec 12, 2009

Christina said:
you mean prove its man made ? yes, more importantly the concept of pre trib is it not written in the Bible.
No one has ever proved it. The weak things they say might imply it are easily disproved to anyone caring to really investigate scripture. That's why its called a theory there is no evidence.
It was started by the dream of a girl in 1830 and if you can prove different there's a 1000 dollar reward for you
http://www.scionofzion.com/pretrib_rapture_diehards.htm

Christina, that is just what I suspected. PAUL started this doctrine when he wrote first and second thessalonians. And if one can read and understand what is written, pretrib is clearly written. I suspect you have read with preconceived glasses.

Coop

Christina · Dec 12, 2009

Paul wrote no such thing its you who have on the glasses ... One must know the man made doctrine before it can ever be seen 1 Thess 4 is the absoulute weakest
argument.You base your proof on an error of the Thessolanians that was corrected by Paul in 2 thess.
You asked if I could prove it I did prove its a man made doctrine and I did
you cant prove men words in scripture you can only prove Gods.

God nor Paul ever taught any Pre trib Rapture theroy and you cant prove he did ....All you have is an opinon based on what men say, scripture doesnt say it. Now if you chose to believe this doctrine your choice but you havent a scipture to stand on ... I dont expect you collected the 1000 dollar reward for your proof

Stephen · Dec 12, 2009

The scripture above is written by one who is a member of the Shepard's Chapel which embraces the "serpent seed" heresy of Arnold Murray [one of Murray's hallmark verses is that of Ezekiel 13 which he takes out of context and attempts to discredit the Lord's "harpazo" action for the church

Murray touts a racially biased theology .... he hates Israel and he also hates the truth regarding the Lord's intent to immortalize today's church before His coming hour [time] of trial against an unbelieving world

He a white supremacist and he has built a concoction mixture of several other aberrant teachings like those from William Branham and Herbert W. Armstrong of the past

All of this can be verified by Internet research and one should be aware of his teachings and those who spread them[/time]

I will be posting more on this subject soon

Christina · Dec 13, 2009

I follow the Bible I wrote that post from my own knowledge its written in history and the bible for anyone to read because I dont believe rapture your making personal attacks
I happen to believe Israel and Jews are part of the true church and have taught it 100 times and I resent your remarks and personal attacks and will report them
I havent a prejuticed bone in my body. you believe everything you read on the web ?What you cant prove your points in scripture so you attack.. You prove me wrong with your man made doctrines... Cant be done Gods Word is truth ..

gumby · Dec 13, 2009

Stephen said:
The scripture above is written by one who is a member of the Shepard's Chapel which embraces the "serpent seed" heresy of Arnold Murray [one of Murray's hallmark verses is that of Ezekiel 13 which he takes out of context and attempts to discredit the Lord's "harpazo" action for the church

Murray touts a racially biased theology .... he hates Israel and he also hates the truth regarding the Lord's intent to immortalize today's church before His coming hour [time] of trial against an unbelieving world

He a white supremacist and he has built a concoction mixture of several other aberrant teachings like those from William Branham and Herbert W. Armstrong of the past

All of this can be verified by Internet research and one should be aware of his teachings and those who spread them[/time]

I will be posting more on this subject soon

Stop judging pastor murray and christina here pastor murray is a child of god and i thank god for his program evry single day, your simply spreading lies like all the other ratchet jaws as pastor murray likes to call them, people like you i will rebuke in the name of jesus and will not tolerate your junk. Proverbs 9:8, Proverbs 28:23, Luke 17:3, 2nd Timothy 4:2 and Titus 2:15. And explain to me if you still beleive in the rapture lie why Ezekiel 13:20, Jeremiah 5:26, Psalms 10:9, Jeremiah 18:22 and Habakkuk 1:15 exist. Gods agaist evil soul hunting and lies such as rapture and paster murray nor christina is not a lier.

God's message on flying away to save our soul

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