How should the church service be structured

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BreadOfLife

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Catholics are not scripturally educated, but unscripturally educated(commentary).
They are the queen of extra Biblical commentary and the masters of manipulation(of the masses).
They have created their mass deception empire through visuals to the scripturally impaired.
Quite a racket.
Catholics are the MOST Scripturally-educated - especially since the Bible came out of the Catholic Church and not ANY of your Protestant sects.
Not even pseudo-Protestant, quasi-Christian sects like yours.

Yup - God's breathed Word (Theopneustos) came through His Church.
It didn't fall out of the sky . . .
 

BreadOfLife

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4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Jesus was made and named after God made him.
Jesus was not made or named per the RCC?
Interesting extra Biblical idea.
Probably best that you take some time off, pull out a dictionary and stare at the definition of "Eternal" for a few days.

MAYBE
it'll finally sink in - but I doubt it . . .
 

Marymog

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Catholics are not scripturally educated, but unscripturally educated(commentary).

They are the queen of extra Biblical commentary and the masters of manipulation(of the masses).

They have created their mass deception empire through visuals to the scripturally impaired.

Quite a racket.
That is quite a fascinating theory you have put forth. Since all the Protestant teachings disagree with each other does that mean they are unscripturally educated also?

If all Christians agreed with you would we no longer be uneducated about scripture?
 
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quietthinker

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Then, why don't YOU explain the context??

Explain to me WHY the people walked away from Christ when He told them in NO uncertain terms that they must eat (trogo, not phago) his flesh (sarx) and drink His blood (hah'-ee-mah) to have life within them.

Explain to me WHY He told them that His flesh was "true food" (al-ay-thace' bro'-sis) and His blood was "true drink"(al-ay-thace' pos'-is), if He really didn't mean it.

Explain WHY he didn't explain to the Apostles that He was speaking "metaphorically" and simply asked them if they ALSO wanted to leave. Jesus ALWAYS explained His teachings to His inner circle.

I eagerly await your "contextual" explanation . . .
Your foolish reply only serves to highlight you haven't read any further of the same sequence let alone understood it.
 

Illuminator

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Educated Catholic:
Jesus said that we MUST eat His flesh and drink His blood in order that we may have LIFE within us (John 6:53-59).

Ignorant anti-Catholic:
Duhhhhh, doze wafers taste like chalk!!

Educated Catholic:
Sooooo, how does that negate what Christ commanded of us?

Ignorant anti-Catholic:
Duhhhh, you poop out Jesus!!


Educated Catholic:
Why did Jesus say, “This IS my body”, and “This IS my blood”, if He was only speaking “symbolically”?

Ignorant anti-Catholic:
Duhhhhh, Constantine was your first Pope and you worship Mary!!


Educated Catholic:
That’s what I thought, Einstein . . .


OIP.s_XEfHwL5SZ-fu3ELsl6kQAAAA
 
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Truther

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That is quite a fascinating theory you have put forth. Since all the Protestant teachings disagree with each other does that mean they are unscripturally educated also?

If all Christians agreed with you would we no longer be uneducated about scripture?
Yes.

Anyone that abandons the plain 1st and only meanings of scripture are under educated in scripture, but over educated in extra Biblical ideas.

This includes Protestants.

The Bible is our only source, and the commentaries are endless and maddening.
 

Truther

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You have dodged the question AGAIN

Would you be brave enough to ask the Apostles if it taste like chalk?
Yes, if they ate RCC chalk wafers.

Fact is, per 1st Cor 11, they ate real food at the pascha feast for Christians, not chalk tablets.

The have's were rebuked for hoarding food from the have not's, not chalk drops from RCC factories.
 

Truther

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Catholics are the MOST Scripturally-educated - especially since the Bible came out of the Catholic Church and not ANY of your Protestant sects.
Not even pseudo-Protestant, quasi-Christian sects like yours.

Yup - God's breathed Word (Theopneustos) came through His Church.
It didn't fall out of the sky . . .
LOL

I had a debate in 1980 with a priest in his office in front of a group of friends that set it up.

I brought my Bible only.

He brought an armful of books.

After I asked him a few Biblical questions he yelled "shut up and sit down"(red faced).

Then he began scouring through commentary for answers.

I know.....
 

Illuminator

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Phenomenological Language in Holy Scripture and in the Addresses of Pope Francis

JesusLastSupper2.jpg


In an article hosted by Gloria.tv (6-24-19), it was stated:

The Eucharist is “Jesus who becomes bread,” and contains the “entire reality of the Church,” Pope Francis claimed in his June 23 Corpus Christi homily.

He went on alleging that we find in the Eucharist God himself “contained in a piece of bread.” These formulations are profoundly heretical. . . .

The heretical concept pronounced by Francis is called “impanation.” It denies transubstantiation and is usually explained with the wrong statement that “God has become bread.” Transsubstantiation [sic] is the changing of the bread’s substance into the substance of Christ’s body effectuated by the consecration during Mass.

The sedevacantist website, Novus Ordo Watch followed suit (on 6-23-19), even tossing in a dig at yours truly:

Bergoglio’s sermon for Corpus Christi did not just have the wrong emphasis, it was explicitly heretical. . . .

Any child who wants to make his First Holy Communion would not be admitted if this were his understanding of the Eucharist. It is heresy!

The only correct understanding of what happens to the bread and wine when they are consecrated by a priest during Holy Mass is the dogma of Transubstantiation, nothing else. What Bergoglio puts forward in today’s homily is, at best, the Lutheran heresy of Consubstantiation, also called Impanation, . . .

Of course there will not be lacking now Novus Ordo apologists who will try to argue that Francis didn’t mean what he said in a heretical sense. But at this point, only a fool would still be swayed by the constant hermeneutical acrobatics that people like Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, or Dave Armstrong come up with . . .

It’s not as if Francis were somehow incapable of speaking clearly and in an orthodox fashion. A man who constantly speaks in such a way that heresy is easily and naturally understood from his words, and does not lift a finger to do anything about it — one, in fact, who continually pushes the envelope further and further –, is quite clearly a heretic.

Here are the relevant highlights of the homily in question, from Zenit:

In the presence of the Eucharist, Jesus who becomes bread, this simple bread that contains the entire reality of the Church, . . .

The Eucharist teaches us this: for there we find God himself contained in a piece of bread.

You have the Eucharist, bread for the journey, the bread of Jesus. Tonight too, we will be nourished by his body given up for us.

The jaded interpretation of his words seen in the two (reactionary and sedevacantist) articles above is refuted in Pope Francis’ Angelus Address on the same day (Feast of Corpus Christi):

May Our Lady help us to follow Jesus with faith and love, whom we adore in the Eucharist.​

We know without question that Pope Francis believes in transubstantiation, from many other utterances:

There are other hungers- for love, for immortality for life, for affection, for being cared, for forgiveness, for mercy. This hunger can be satiated only by the bread that comes from above. Jesus himself is the living bread that gives life to the world (cf. Jn 6:51). His body offered for our sake on the cross, his blood shed for the pardon of the sins of humanity is made available to us in the bread and wine to the Eucharist transformed in the consecration.

But the Eucharist does not end with the partaking of the bread and blood of the Lord. It leads us to solidarity with others. The communion with the Lord is necessarily a communion with our fellow brothers and sisters. And therefore the one who is fed and nourished by the very body and blood of Christ cannot remain unaffected when he sees his brothers suffering want and hunger.'
(Homily for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 5-30-13)

Therefore the Eucharistic Celebration is much more than simple banquet: it is exactly the memorial of Jesus’ Paschal Sacrifice, the mystery at the centre of salvation. “Memorial” does not simply mean a remembrance, a mere memory; it means that every time we celebrate this Sacrament we participate in the mystery of the passion, death and resurrection of Christ. The Eucharist is the summit of God’s saving action: the Lord Jesus, by becoming bread broken for us, pours upon us all of his mercy and his love, so as to renew our hearts, our lives and our way of relating with him and with the brethren. . . . the bread that is the Body of Jesus Christ who saves us, forgives us, unites us to the Father.
(General Audience, 2-5-14)

Jesus underlines that he has not come into this world to give something, but to give himself, his life, as nourishment for those who have faith in Him. . . . Every time that we participate in Holy Mass and we are nourished by the Body of Christ, the presence of Jesus and of the Holy Spirit acts in us, shaping our hearts, communicating an interior disposition to us that translates into conduct according to the Gospel.
(Angelus for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 6-22-14)

In the Eucharist Jesus does not give just any bread, but the bread of eternal life, he gives Himself, offering Himself to the Father out of love for us. (Angelus, 8-13-14)

The Eucharist is Jesus who gives himself entirely to us. To nourish ourselves with him and abide in him through Holy Communion, if we do it with faith, transforms our life into a gift to God and to our brothers… eating him, we become like him. . . . [the Eucharist] is not a private prayer or a beautiful spiritual experience . . . it is a memorial, namely, a gesture that actualizes and makes present the event of the death and resurrection of Jesus: the bread is truly his Body given, the wine is truly is Blood poured out.
(Angelus, 8-16-15; Catholic News Agency)

It’s not just a memory, no, it’s more: It’s making present what happened twenty centuries ago. . . . This is Mass: entering in this Passion, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus, and when we go to Mass, it is as if we go to Calvary. Now imagine if we went to Calvary—using our imagination—in that moment, knowing that that man there is Jesus. Would we dare to chit-chat, take pictures, make a little scene? No! Because it’s Jesus! We would surely be in silence, in tears, and in the joy of being saved… Mass is experiencing Calvary, it’s not a show.
(General Audience, Crux, 11-22-17)​

It continues to be a breathtaking phenomenon, how the dumbfounded, relentless enemies of this pope can’t undertake the slightest labor to simply check and see what the pope believes about a given topic, by doing a search. Is this impossible for them? Have they not heard of the Holy See website and its searching capabilities? Are they unaware of Google? It’s astonishing.

So why does Pope Francis often seem to equate “bread” (after consecration) with Jesus’ Body? He doesn’t say the more precise and literal “what was once bread” or “what has the appearance of bread” or “what continues to have the accidents of bread and wine”. I contend that he’s simply using phenomenological language. We do so all the time by saying, “the sun goes down” or “the sun rises.”

It’s everyday language that refers to appearance rather than essence. We know that He believes in transubstantiation because he refers to partaking of the Body and Blood in several of his homilies and other talks. He combines this orthodox belief with the language of appearance. And so he says, “the bread is truly his Body given, the wine is truly is Blood poured out” (8-16-15).

Is it impermissible (or heretical) to speak in that way? I should think not, seeing that our Lord Jesus and the Gospel writers and St. Paul did so. Jesus still referred to the consecrated and transformed former bread as “bread”:

John 6:50-51, John 6:58

The Gospel writers refer to the consecrated / transubstantiated element as “bread” too:

Matthew 26:26

Mark 14:22

Luke 22:19


Here is St. Paul doing the same thing:

1 Corinthians 10:16-17

1 Corinthians 11:23-29

Thus, Pope Francis is using the language of Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. If he is wrong and is supposedly a eucharistic heretic, so are they. Since that is ridiculous, the accusation collapses in a heap.

No, Pope Francis Did Not Deny Transubstantiation
 
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Truther

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Phenomenological Language in Holy Scripture and in the Addresses of Pope Francis

JesusLastSupper2.jpg


In an article hosted by Gloria.tv (6-24-19), it was stated:

The Eucharist is “Jesus who becomes bread,” and contains the “entire reality of the Church,” Pope Francis claimed in his June 23 Corpus Christi homily.

He went on alleging that we find in the Eucharist God himself “contained in a piece of bread.” These formulations are profoundly heretical. . . .

The heretical concept pronounced by Francis is called “impanation.” It denies transubstantiation and is usually explained with the wrong statement that “God has become bread.” Transsubstantiation [sic] is the changing of the bread’s substance into the substance of Christ’s body effectuated by the consecration during Mass.

The sedevacantist website, Novus Ordo Watch followed suit (on 6-23-19), even tossing in a dig at yours truly:

Bergoglio’s sermon for Corpus Christi did not just have the wrong emphasis, it was explicitly heretical. . . .

Any child who wants to make his First Holy Communion would not be admitted if this were his understanding of the Eucharist. It is heresy!

The only correct understanding of what happens to the bread and wine when they are consecrated by a priest during Holy Mass is the dogma of Transubstantiation, nothing else. What Bergoglio puts forward in today’s homily is, at best, the Lutheran heresy of Consubstantiation, also called Impanation, . . .

Of course there will not be lacking now Novus Ordo apologists who will try to argue that Francis didn’t mean what he said in a heretical sense. But at this point, only a fool would still be swayed by the constant hermeneutical acrobatics that people like Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, or Dave Armstrong come up with . . .

It’s not as if Francis were somehow incapable of speaking clearly and in an orthodox fashion. A man who constantly speaks in such a way that heresy is easily and naturally understood from his words, and does not lift a finger to do anything about it — one, in fact, who continually pushes the envelope further and further –, is quite clearly a heretic.

Here are the relevant highlights of the homily in question, from Zenit:

In the presence of the Eucharist, Jesus who becomes bread, this simple bread that contains the entire reality of the Church, . . .

The Eucharist teaches us this: for there we find God himself contained in a piece of bread.

You have the Eucharist, bread for the journey, the bread of Jesus. Tonight too, we will be nourished by his body given up for us.

The jaded interpretation of his words seen in the two (reactionary and sedevacantist) articles above is refuted in Pope Francis’ Angelus Address on the same day (Feast of Corpus Christi):

May Our Lady help us to follow Jesus with faith and love, whom we adore in the Eucharist.​

We know without question that Pope Francis believes in transubstantiation, from many other utterances:

There are other hungers- for love, for immortality for life, for affection, for being cared, for forgiveness, for mercy. This hunger can be satiated only by the bread that comes from above. Jesus himself is the living bread that gives life to the world (cf. Jn 6:51). His body offered for our sake on the cross, his blood shed for the pardon of the sins of humanity is made available to us in the bread and wine to the Eucharist transformed in the consecration.

But the Eucharist does not end with the partaking of the bread and blood of the Lord. It leads us to solidarity with others. The communion with the Lord is necessarily a communion with our fellow brothers and sisters. And therefore the one who is fed and nourished by the very body and blood of Christ cannot remain unaffected when he sees his brothers suffering want and hunger. (Homily for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 5-30-13)

Therefore the Eucharistic Celebration is much more than simple banquet: it is exactly the memorial of Jesus’ Paschal Sacrifice, the mystery at the centre of salvation. “Memorial” does not simply mean a remembrance, a mere memory; it means that every time we celebrate this Sacrament we participate in the mystery of the passion, death and resurrection of Christ. The Eucharist is the summit of God’s saving action: the Lord Jesus, by becoming bread broken for us, pours upon us all of his mercy and his love, so as to renew our hearts, our lives and our way of relating with him and with the brethren. . . . the bread that is the Body of Jesus Christ who saves us, forgives us, unites us to the Father. (General Audience, 2-5-14)

Jesus underlines that he has not come into this world to give something, but to give himself, his life, as nourishment for those who have faith in Him. . . . Every time that we participate in Holy Mass and we are nourished by the Body of Christ, the presence of Jesus and of the Holy Spirit acts in us, shaping our hearts, communicating an interior disposition to us that translates into conduct according to the Gospel. (Angelus for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 6-22-14)

In the Eucharist Jesus does not give just any bread, but the bread of eternal life, he gives Himself, offering Himself to the Father out of love for us. (Angelus, 8-13-14)

The Eucharist is Jesus who gives himself entirely to us. To nourish ourselves with him and abide in him through Holy Communion, if we do it with faith, transforms our life into a gift to God and to our brothers… eating him, we become like him. . . . [the Eucharist] is not a private prayer or a beautiful spiritual experience . . . it is a memorial, namely, a gesture that actualizes and makes present the event of the death and resurrection of Jesus: the bread is truly his Body given, the wine is truly is Blood poured out. (Angelus, 8-16-15; Catholic News Agency)

It’s not just a memory, no, it’s more: It’s making present what happened twenty centuries ago. . . . This is Mass: entering in this Passion, Death, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus, and when we go to Mass, it is as if we go to Calvary. Now imagine if we went to Calvary—using our imagination—in that moment, knowing that that man there is Jesus. Would we dare to chit-chat, take pictures, make a little scene? No! Because it’s Jesus! We would surely be in silence, in tears, and in the joy of being saved… Mass is experiencing Calvary, it’s not a show. (General Audience, Crux, 11-22-17)​

It continues to be a breathtaking phenomenon, how the dumbfounded, relentless enemies of this pope can’t undertake the slightest labor to simply check and see what the pope believes about a given topic, by doing a search. Is this impossible for them? Have they not heard of the Holy See website and its searching capabilities? Are they unaware of Google? It’s astonishing.

So why does Pope Francis often seem to equate “bread” (after consecration) with Jesus’ Body? He doesn’t say the more precise and literal “what was once bread” or “what has the appearance of bread” or “what continues to have the accidents of bread and wine”. I contend that he’s simply using phenomenological language. We do so all the time by saying, “the sun goes down” or “the sun rises.”

It’s everyday language that refers to appearance rather than essence. We know that He believes in transubstantiation because he refers to partaking of the Body and Blood in several of his homilies and other talks. He combines this orthodox belief with the language of appearance. And so he says, “the bread is truly his Body given, the wine is truly is Blood poured out” (8-16-15).

Is it impermissible (or heretical) to speak in that way? I should think not, seeing that our Lord Jesus and the Gospel writers and St. Paul did so. Jesus still referred to the consecrated and transformed former bread as “bread”:

John 6:50-51, John 6:58

The Gospel writers refer to the consecrated / transubstantiated element as “bread” too:

Matthew 26:26

Mark 14:22

Luke 22:19


Here is St. Paul doing the same thing:

1 Corinthians 10:16-17

1 Corinthians 11:23-29

Thus, Pope Francis is using the language of Jesus, Paul, Matthew, Mark, and Luke. If he is wrong and is supposedly a eucharistic heretic, so are they. Since that is ridiculous, the accusation collapses in a heap.
Did the Apostles paint that pic?
 

Marymog

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Yes.

Anyone that abandons the plain 1st and only meanings of scripture are under educated in scripture, but over educated in extra Biblical ideas.

This includes Protestants.

The Bible is our only source, and the commentaries are endless and maddening.
Hold on kiddo....Please clarify. Are you saying “Yes” to my question, “If all Christians agreed with you would we no longer be uneducated about scripture?”

Curious Mary
 

Marymog

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Yes.

Anyone that abandons the plain 1st and only meanings of scripture are under educated in scripture, but over educated in extra Biblical ideas.

This includes Protestants.

The Bible is our only source, and the commentaries are endless and maddening.
LOL.....You ARE a Protestant sooooo how can you say “This includes Protestants”????

Do you not realize how bizarre and hypocritical your theory is??? You provide ENDLESS commentary on Scripture but then call endless commentary “maddening”.o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O

You are truly an interesting person...
 

Marymog

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Yes, if they ate RCC chalk wafers.

Fact is, per 1st Cor 11, they ate real food at the pascha feast for Christians, not chalk tablets.

The have's were rebuked for hoarding food from the have not's, not chalk drops from RCC factories.
You fascinate me.

Sooooooo when Christ offered his Apostles unleavened bread, saying it was His body and do this in remembrance of me, and Christians today consume unleavened In remembrance of Him they are ‘chalk tablets from RCC factories????’

I sincerely can NOT take you serious anymore.......You have me in stitches.

Who taught you what you believe???
 

Marymog

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Your foolish reply only serves to highlight you haven't read any further of the same sequence let alone understood it.
Who decides who understands and who twists Scripture?

Curious Mary
 

Illuminator

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We’re told by Reformed that Jesus is physically present at the Lord’s Supper, but not in the bread (or what was formerly bread). This makes no sense, and is contradictory:

1. Jesus is physically present in the Supper.

2. Jesus is not physically present in the bread and wine.

3. But the Supper and the bread and wine are synonymous.

4. Therefore, it follows that Jesus is somehow physically present and not physically present at the same time, which is a contradiction and impossible.

If Reformed Protestants want to stress the literal human body of Jesus in heaven, and want to make the Eucharist dependent on, or limited by that, then it is strange to make Jesus “physical” in the Eucharist (but not in the bread) and to hold that “the Holy Spirit, in this Sacrament, raises us to Christ where, mysteriously, we feed on his true body and blood.” It’s this constant irrational shifting between “mystical” and “physical” which is the problem. Reformed Protestants refer to a literal feeding on Christ, but He is in heaven, etc. . . . But now we are told that it is a “mystical” presence. So which is it? And how is any of this less difficult to believe than transubstantiation?

I see little (if any) indication in either Scripture or the history of doctrine prior to Calvin and Zwingli that we somehow meet Jesus in heaven (“physically”) during the Eucharist before we actually arrive there after death.

Transubstantiation is not self-contradictory. It is a difficult concept, unusual, a profound miracle which requires exceptional faith, but involves no logical inconsistency. God can do any miracle He so chooses. He can transform the bread and wine into His Body and Blood. That makes sense to me because if God could become a Man He can make Himself substantially present in consecrated elements that were formerly bread and wine.
John Calvin's Erroneous Mystical View of the Eucharist
 
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Truther

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You fascinate me.

Sooooooo when Christ offered his Apostles unleavened bread, saying it was His body and do this in remembrance of me, and Christians today consume unleavened In remembrance of Him they are ‘chalk tablets from RCC factories????’

I sincerely can NOT take you serious anymore.......You have me in stitches.

Who taught you what you believe???
The Bible taught me.

I noticed that in 1 Cor 11, they were participating in a church feast which was immediately referencing the last supper.

This feast was so sacred that there was mortal danger from God to those that did not share their food.

So, as the Jews in the O.T. had a universal pascha feast, so did the N.T. saints.....but the saints had the fulfilled meaning, therefore had to get it right.

This feast has devolved over the centuries to a chalk wafer, as the hungry are never fed.

If today's fake churches were honored by God as the true church, he would afflict them for leaving folks hungry and not having a "last SUPPER" feast as the 1st century did.
 

Truther

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LOL.....You ARE a Protestant sooooo how can you say “This includes Protestants”????

Do you not realize how bizarre and hypocritical your theory is??? You provide ENDLESS commentary on Scripture but then call endless commentary “maddening”.o_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_Oo_O

You are truly an interesting person...
I don't protest the RCC.

They protest me.

I am a "1st century" saint, which I identify with the Apostolic, pre-apostate church of Acts.

I adhere to the doctrines and experience of Acts perfectly, deviating from nothing.

This also qualifies me to read and apply the Epistles that follow Acts.

I am one of the rare to find folks that has not skipped Acts.