Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us. Our part in running the race set before us is to withstand the temptation, the deception, of Satan. I read the following few verses and they appear to say that if He loves us then He will scourge us. If we don't receive great chastisment and pain in life then we aren't loved by Him. But, that IS NOT what is meant. Hebrews 12:4-6 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, "My son, despise not thou the chastening of the LORD, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him; For whom the LORD loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth." 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. What this means is that we, as witnesses, as sons of God....will face the great tribulation of Satan. All will be partakers! No one is flown away, and those that don't endure it..."then are ye bastards, and not sons." The scourging and chastening is to endure Satan's hour of temptation. That is the "overflowing scourge" we must not hide from..... Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 28:28 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. Revelation 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.The overflowing scourge is a flood of lies from the mouth of the serpent....lies that are a "covenant with death and hell," and Satan IS Death and Hell. Our Father does NOT cause pain in our flesh lives in order to accept us as His.
Does a Loving God Chasteneth and Scourgeth Us?
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Isaiah chapter 28 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. The chastising does come from the Lord it is to those who disobey. That is why Paul says those who despise it are bastards. He is saying those who reject the chastisement are rejecting the Lord.whirlwind;74139][B]Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses said:
[quote name='Butch5;74142]Isaiah chapter 28 refers to the destruction of Jerusalem. The chastising does come from the Lord it is [COLOR=blue]to those who disobey.[/COLOR] That is why Paul says those who despise it are bastards. He is saying those who reject the chastisement are rejecting the Lord.[/QUOTE] [B]I don't see that Butch5' date=' [/B'] Those that disobey are those making a pact with the devil to avoid it (rapture) and their "covenant with death shall be disannulled," for the scourge will come and "then ye shall be trodden down by it." The scourge is coming and we, those He loves, will pass through it without being trodden down.
Miss Hepburn
Well-Known Member
Butch5;74157]Can you please explain what the basis is for applying Isaiah 28 as you have? Paul quotes this passage in 1 Corinthians as a sign of judgment against the leadership of Israel. What basis do you have for the application that you have made? I mean the passage itself is clear it says the Lord chastens said:
I understand what you are saying and that may be true. However, the passage in Isaiah is not speaking to this issue. It is speaking of Judgment against the leadership in Jerusalem at the time of Christ. One of the first and most important methods of study is to take the Scriptures "In Context". What you have said may be true, but, you cannot use Isaiah 28 to support it because that is not what Isaiah 28 is speaking of. A much better passage to support what you have said is the book of Job, Where Satan was allowed to bring all kinds of things against Job yet he remained faithful.whirlwind;74179][B]I agree. It is He that requires this. But said:
Butch5;74187]I understand what you are saying and that may be true. However said:You are right, it may well have been a better passage.But, consider Butch just who the "drunkards of Ephraim" are as well as it not being just against leadership during the time of Christ. It is for us now. The twelve tribes split. The Jews are the house of Judah, Judah and Benjamin, while the larger section of the tribes are termed the house of Israel. They are also called "Ephraim" at times. They are today's Christians. The passage is to us, to those of us who have "made a covenant with death." He wants us to hear His voice for the end draws near.
I disagree, I believe this is the reason for the confusion in the church today. Christians apply to many things from Scripture in a general sense that should not be applied. For example, we have Calvinists and Arminians in the church, why? Because someone is inappropriately applying Scripture. These two views are opposed to each other and therefore cannot both be true, someone is misinterpreting the Scriptures. This happens repeatedly in the Church, on many different issues, Spiritual gifts, do they continue or have they ceased? another issue where someone is misunderstanding the Scriptures. My point here is that it is Absolutely Paramount that we read and apply the Scriptures "IN CONTEXT". Isaiah 28 applies to Israel, we should apply it to Israel and no one else, unless there is other Scripture that tells us to apply it elsewhere. Let me give you an example of what I mean. Jesus said,Matthew 15:24 ( KJV ) But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus said that He was sent to Israel. He said this to a Gentile woman, the indication there is that He was not sent to the Gentiles. So I apply Jesus words to the Jews. The question then arises what about the Gentiles? Do Jesus words apply to the Gentiles? If so how? Well, Jesus also said,Matthew 28:18-20 ( KJV ) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. He told the apostles to teach the nations (Gentiles) all that He had commanded them. So here we have other Scripture teaching us that we can apply Jesus' teachings and commands to all people, not just the Jews, even though when He gave those teachings and commands, He gave them to the Jews.However, here I do not apply Jesus statement to all people.John 16:7-15 ( KJV ) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you. These statements were made to the apostles and we are not told elsewhere that this applies to all Christians, (yet I hear many claim this). So,there is no evidence to support a claim that this passage refers to all Christians and it was not Spoken to all Christians but only to the disciples.So that is why I said Isaiah 28 cannot be used to support what you have stated, in context, it simply is not speaking of that issue.whirlwind;74189][B]You are right said:
First of all.....I didn't notice that you are new to the forum. Welcome Butch!Butch5;74190]I disagree said:
Secondly...I am agreeing with you for the Isaiah passage was addressed to Israel. And...Jesus was sent to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel." Where we disagree is in the understanding of just who the house of Israel is. They are today's CHRISTIANS. They are either genetically of those ten tribes or have been adopted through belief but....we, as believers, are the house of Israel. Jeremiah 3:18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.The two houses are the two sticks mentioned in Ezekiel. We will be one in His hand. Remember, the Jews are of Israel but not all of Israel are Jews. Only Judah and Benjamin, who are the house of Judah, are properly termed...Jews. Ju-dah, Jew-dah.
Miss Hepburn
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty new at this -maybe this is old hat to some of you - but this is almost revolutionary to me - having no one in my whole life point this out before.That, dah, taken at the scene - Jesus was saying so many things directly to whom He was speaking ---as in, He didn't tell ALL of us to sell all our possessions and pick up and follow Him -just that one rich guy.Some things to think about on my part.Thanks,Miss Hepburn
Thanks for the welcome. I do however, again, have to disagree. Do you think that Christians are the ones coming from the north to inherit the land given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?You see the passage in Isaiah is dated to the time of Christ.Isaiah 28:1-29 ( KJV ) Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine! Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand. The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet: And the glorious beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a fading flower, and as the hasty fruit before the summer; which when he that looketh upon it seeth, while it is yet in his hand he eateth it up. In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people, And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate. But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. [/B]Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth. Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech. Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground? When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place? For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him. For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod. Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen. This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working. I have bolded and underlined several parts, as you can see they speak of Christ and the judgment on those who were ruling in Jerusalem at that time. God says through Isaiah that he will speak to these people in another tongue but they will not hear. This is the gift of tongues in the NT. Paul quotes Isaiah 28.1 Corinthians 14:21-22 ( KJV ) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. Paul says that tongues was for a sign to unbelievers. The unbelievers were the Jews, the ruling Jews in particular.I highlight the section above in blue, this is the message of tongues, it was the Gospel, the refreshing was the Gospel message. consider what Jesus said,Matthew 11:28-30 ( KJV ) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. I highlighted the section of Isaiah in red that speaks of the judgment, it speaks of the destruction fo Jerusalem, the scourge was the Roman armies and the Jews got trodden underfoot. Their agreement with death, (the arrangement they had with the Romans that allowed the Crucifixion) was annulled, and the Jews were destroyed. I honestly cannot see how you can apply this to Christians. This speaks to national Israel.whirlwind;74191][B]First of all.....I didn said:
It was also revolutionary to me when I first learned of it. However, when Scripture is read in this manner so many things become so clear. So much confusion just disappears. This is one thing that has tremendously advanced my study of Scripture. I look at who is speaking, who is being spoken to, and who is being spoken of.Miss Hepburn;74207][COLOR=Purple][B]I said:
Yes. The land, the promised land, is given to God's children. We are God's children. We are heirs. Look past the letter of the Word and see what the Spirit reveals.... 11 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.Butch5;74214]Thanks for the welcome. I do however said:
Yes it is but it is spoken to us too.... 1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
The people of Ephraim, the house of Israel are....us. Today's Christians. We were scattered by our Father...never returned and are now in the Christian nations where we are "men of other tongues," other languages. Those of us that believe hear His prophesying (teachings) and we believe. The others...those that need a sign don't hear, don't see and believe not.
There are many unbelievers. The "ruling Jews" at the time of Jesus weren't real Jews but are... Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich), and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.Today the synagogue of Satan is filled with Christians...those that say they are and are not.
The scourge isn't Rome...it is Satan. He is the one we battle with.
My friend, you are taking this completely out of context. The Scourge is not Satan, it was the Roman armies. Satan is not even mentioned in this passage, however the ruling leadership of Israel is. Also the application of tongues, tongues have ceased, how are you applying the use of them today?I asked before if you would explain to me what the basis is for your applying this to Christians. I am asking again. Can you please explain your hermeneutic?whirlwind;74235][B]Yes. The land said:
Butch5;74243]My friend said:I am NOT a preterist.
I am talking about Isaiah not Christ. Isaiah's Scourge is the armies of Rome, they destroyed Jerusalem, just like Isaiah prophesied, the gift of tongues was a warning to the ruler in Jerusalem at the time of the Prophecy. The message of tongues was the rest of God, it came as a warning against the Jewish leadership that rejected and crucified Christ. After the judgment came and Jerusalem was destroyed there was no long a need for tongues, the judgment had past. Peter said that his day was "the last days". Please, please , please, explain your hermeneutic to me so that I can try to understand how you are drawing your conclusions. You keep saying Satan is the scourge and he is not even mentioned anywhere in this.whirlwind;74246 said:I am NOT a preterist.
[quote name='Butch5;74292]I am talking about Isaiah not Christ. Isaiah's Scourge is the armies of Rome' date=' they destroyed Jerusalem, just like Isaiah prophesied, the gift of tongues was a warning to the ruler in Jerusalem at the time of the Prophecy. The message of tongues was the rest of God, it came as a warning against the Jewish leadership that rejected and crucified Christ. After the judgment came and Jerusalem was destroyed there was no long a need for tongues, the judgment had past. Peter said that his day was "the last days". Please, please , please, explain your hermeneutic to me so that I can try to understand how you are drawing your conclusions. You keep saying Satan is the scourge and he is not even mentioned anywhere in this.[/QUOTE'] Several times I have quoted..... 1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.Please really read what is written. All things written, all the events that have happened, literally happened and will again happen...either literally or spiritually for they are examples to those of us living in the end of days. They are "types" or shadows of what is to come. Isaiah foretold of Rome marching through Jerusalem and in doing so also foretold of Satan again marching through Jerusalem. Rome was a type for Satan. Jerusalem is a type for us....His children, His holy city. Satan is mentioned throughout the Bible...perhaps not by name but certainly by types. Satan was the serpent in the garden. Satan was Pharoah to Moses and the Israelites. Satan was the king of Tyrus to Ezekiel, Caiaphas the high priest was a type of Satan to Jesus and on and on and on. The way Satan has been depicted throughout Biblical history is who he is now, is how he will appear in the end of days. Please give the chapter and verse for...."Peter said that his day was "the last days".
Several times I have quoted..... 1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.Please really read what is written. All things written, all the events that have happened, literally happened and will again happen...either literally or spiritually for they are examples to those of us living in the end of days. They are "types" or shadows of what is to come. Isaiah foretold of Rome marching through Jerusalem and in doing so also foretold of Satan again marching through Jerusalem. Rome was a type for Satan. Jerusalem is a type for us....His children, His holy city. Satan is mentioned throughout the Bible...perhaps not by name but certainly by types. Satan was the serpent in the garden. Satan was Pharoah to Moses and the Israelites. Satan was the king of Tyrus to Ezekiel, Caiaphas the high priest was a type of Satan to Jesus and on and on and on. The way Satan has been depicted throughout Biblical history is who he is now, is how he will appear in the end of days. Please give the chapter and verse for...."Peter said that his day was "the last days". Similar threads
