Our Lord Jesus Said He is God

Addressing the OP, on point, and correct.

but many say Jesus don't say it out of his own MOUTH,m oh yes he do. to all the UNBELIEVERS who say Jesus din't say it, well all hands on deck, listen, Revelation 1:11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."
it was the Lord Jesus who was addressing the 7 churches. and he, JESUS, identified himself as the "FIRST", and the "LAST". dy saying that he is "FIRST", he just recited the Shema. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
and ONE here is the "Ordinal "FIRST". Jesus... yes, JESUS is SAYING out of his own MOUTH, "I AM you GOD". for the term "ONE" in Deuteronomy 6:4 is the Hebrew word,
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

here we can clearly see that the LORD, all caps is the "FIRST". and JESUS just said that he is the "FIRST" ..... and he, JESUS is the "LAST".

JESUS is clearly saying just what THOMAS said in, John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God." Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

MY God is ME, is what the Lord JESUS is Saying. just as what he said in Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

even Ray Charles can see that. JESUS IS GOD ALMIGHTY "shared" in flesh, as a man, the "FIRST" and the "LAST".

Good topic Davey.

PICJAG.

Davy wrote:

Make no mistake, Jesus of Nazareth said He is God in the Scriptures. Not only did He say it, but The Father said it also.

Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
KJV

Matt 1:22-23
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV

Jesus as The Christ was prophesied to come, Immanuel being one of His titles. We are told by Apostle Matthew what His title of Immanuel means, "God with us". That means God come in the flesh through woman's womb. Jesus is God, come in the flesh.

..............................................

Although trinitarian-translated Bibles have traditionally rendered 'Immanuel' at Matthew 1:23 as "God with us," most other trinitarian sources I have found render it more properly as "With Us Is God."

This was a common expression among the Israelites and those who dealt with them: "God is with us"; "God is with you"; "God is with them"; etc. These simply meant that God favored these people - was ready to help them in various ways. It did not mean that they believed God was actually present.

Strong's Concordance:

Immanuel: "with us is God," the name of a child

......................

NAS Exhaustive Concordance :

Word Origin from im and el
Definition "with us is God," the name of a child

.......................

Brown-Driver-Briggs

עִמָּנוּאֵל proper name, masculine Immanuel (with us is God);

............................

The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia

Immanuel

"It is a Heb[rew] word signifying 'God is with us'."

.....................

How else do we know that Immanu El in Hebrew actually means ‘God is with us’? We know because shortly after it is introduced in Isaiah 7:14 and repeated in 8:8, it is explained in 8:10 - “God is with us” - KJV; RSV; NRSV; NASB; NIV; NEB; REB; NJB; NAB; MLB; LB; etc.

There are two things we should be aware of concerning personal names in scripture.

First, personal names when composed of more than one word (such as Immanuel) very often have minor words ('a,' 'of,' 'is,' etc.) omitted which are to be understood by the reader. (See my NAME study). This is how trinitarians obtain a 'proof' for Is. 9:6, for example.

Second, the personal names of Israelites in scripture very often have names including "God" and "Jehovah" (Jah) which are used as descriptions and praises of God Himself - not of the person bearing the name.

Davy wrote:

In John 8, our Lord Jesus is conversing with the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees who tried to trap His words.

John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. KJV

The 'I AM THAT I AM' is the sacred name GOD gave to Moses upon Mt. Sinai (Exodus 3:14-15). [Actually the Hebrew word ehyeh there is literally translated as "I Will Be" everywhere else in the writings of Moses] Our Lord Jesus just said to those blind scribes and Pharisees directly that He is God. And to show that they understood that, they took up stones to stone Jesus for blasphemy.
......................

Some trinitarians claim that Jesus was declaring himself to be Jehovah God because he said “I AM” (ego eimi in the original NT Greek) at John 8:58.


Their reasoning goes like this: Exodus 3:14 in some English Bible translations has Jehovah God revealing himself as “I AM WHO I AM” and “I AM.” So, they say, Jesus’ statement at John 8:58 shows him revealing himself by the same exclusive title (name? description?) as Jehovah (“I AM” at Exodus 3:14) and, therefore, he is Jehovah God!

Furthermore, some of these trinitarians say, the Jews understood perfectly that Jesus was claiming to be Jehovah when he used those two words because they immediately took up stones to kill him.

But these Jews of Judea had already decided beforehand to kill Jesus! (John 7:1, 25) They needed no further incentives. Nothing that Jesus said or did at this point would have made any difference to them.

If the Jews had really understood the phrase “I AM” (ego eimi) to mean the speaker was claiming to be Jehovah and that they should therefore kill him, they would have immediately stoned Jesus at John 8:24 or :28. (The actual Greek in the ancient Bible manuscripts is identical to John 8:58, ego eimi, but many English Bible translations properly add “he” so that it can be understood as “I am he” in English.) Nevertheless, Jesus actually identified himself by saying ego eimi in these two verses (unlike his use of them in John 8:58!)

We know that even his disciples didn’t believe Jesus was God simply because he said ego eimi, for he identified himself to them with these very same words at John 6:20 (usually rendered into English as “It is I”), and their reaction was certainly not that of those who had come into the presence of God! - Cf. the parallel Matt. 14:27.

We should also know that the Jews didn't believe it either. Otherwise they would have immediately stoned the ex-blind man who identified himself to the Jews by saying ego eimi: John 9:9.

As for the charge that the Jews were going to stone him because he claimed to be God, we should be aware that the Jews stoned people for many offenses. For example, a person pretending to be a “wizard” was to be stoned to death according to the Law (Lev. 20:27 - KJV, RSV, ASV, LB). Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982 ed., tells us

“Wizard, a pretender to supernatural knowledge and power .... such a one was forbidden on pain of death to practice his deceptions ... Lev. 20:26, 27.” - p. 654.

There are many other capital crimes including false prophecy and Sabbath breaking.

We also know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.

If John truly believed a stunning new essential knowledge of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, 'But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.'

Where is the amazing new 'truth' that Jesus IS God?

When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or said) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God. - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Davy said:

Make no mistake, Jesus of Nazareth said He is God in the Scriptures. Not only did He say it, but The Father said it also.

Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
KJV

Matt 1:22-23
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV

Jesus as The Christ was prophesied to come, Immanuel being one of His titles. We are told by Apostle Matthew what His title of Immanuel means, "God with us". That means God come in the flesh through woman's womb. Jesus is God, come in the flesh.


In John 8, our Lord Jesus is conversing with the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees who tried to trap His words.

John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

The 'I AM THAT I AM' is the sacred name GOD gave to Moses upon Mt. Sinai (Exodus 3:14-15). Our Lord Jesus just said to those blind scribes and Pharisees directly that He is God. And to show that they understood that, they took up stones to stone Jesus for blasphemy.


In the following, Apostle Paul (writer of Hebrews I believe) quoted from Psalms 45 where The Father is calling The Son, "O God":

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows."
KJV

That is unmistakable that The Father is calling Jesus as God.


When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection, He answered Philip who want to know who The Father is...

John 14:8-9
8 Philip saith unto him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."

9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'
KJV

By that, "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father", Jesus just said that He is God.


Here's an example that every Jew should be well familiar with, and have NO EXCUSE to deny that Jesus of Nazareth is God The Savior come in the flesh...

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV

And just to make sure we know that is talking about The Son, the Isaiah 9:7 verse shows it's the One Who is given to reign upon the throne of David, which of course per the prophets is only for The Son.

Make no mistake. Jesus The Christ is God.

Click to expand...

You are going to have to do one-thousand times better than that, if you are trying to prove something as enigmatic, implausible and utterly contradictory and ridiculous as a man being God, ...and blasphemous.
Look up the word theophory, and how many times such a convention was used in the Bible. Or, re-read the history of the Israelites from Moses to Malachi, and tell us what you think that 'God with us' means after that? Did that entire demise of God's chosen people elude you? For the life of you, you cannot comprehend an alternate, or more contextual exegesis, than the one that you came up with for Immanuel? Does one-thousand years of no promised Messiah, and about five-hundred years of foreign captivity and silence from God, mean anything to you?

Before Abraham was, I am. Where in the world do you get a declaration of Christ's deity from this, that you can afford to be so dogmatic about it, or even audacious enough to even make the proposition? Are you aware of how many men, outside of Jesus, used ego eimi to refer to themselves? For even grammatically, the phrase does not make sense according to your interpretation. You correlated two extremely disparate passages that the context or expression, and especially the concept, just does not warrant. Jesus was the first-born of all creation despite his chronology implying otherwise, therefore he was before Abraham, and therefore, the perplexity and confusion of his audience.

Davy wrote:

In the following, Apostle Paul (writer of Hebrews I believe) quoted from Psalms 45 where The Father is calling The Son, "O God":

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows." - KJV

That is unmistakable [?] that The Father is calling Jesus as God.

....................................

A lot of things are "unmistakable" when trinitarians give us only one of a number of other possible translations.

In fact, some of such "unmistakable" renderings are corrected even by a few trinitarian translators and scholars. Heb. 1:8 is one of them.

Heb. 1:8 (condensed from my larger study)

Heb. 1:8 in the King James Version (AV or KJV) is rendered:

“But unto the son he saith, thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”

Since “he saith” and the second “is” (found after “righteousness”) in the above verse are not actually found in the original manuscripts and have been added by the KJV translators, they are found in italics in most printings of the KJV.

But more importantly (as a quick glance into any interlinear Greek-English New Testament will show) the first “is” (found after “God”) in the above verse is also not in the original manuscripts but has been added by some modern translators.

Yes, literally the NT Greek manuscripts read at Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age”.

The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for Ps. 45:6 (which is being quoted in Heb. 1:8):

“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)

The NAB (1970 ed., St. Joseph Edition) goes on to explain in its footnote for Ps. 45, 7 (6), however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [Jehovah].” (And the revised 1991 ed. of the NAB actually translates Ps. 45:6, 7 as “Your throne, O god.”)


Now we’re getting close to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”

Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.

Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Noted NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.” But worse yet (for those wanting evidence of a trinity in Hebrews), Dr. Barclay comments as follows:

“The letter [of Hebrews] was written to a Church which had had great days and great teachers and leaders.” - p. 6. “Moreover, it was obviously written to a scholarly group [who] ... had long been under instruction and were preparing themselves to become teachers of the Christian faith.” - p. 7.

And just what was this passage that includes Heb. 1:8 (Heb. 1:4-14) intended to prove to this group of long-term dedicated Christian scholars?

“[The author] is concerned to prove [Jesus’] SUPERIORITY OVER THE ANGELS.” - p. 16, The Letter to the Hebrews, Revised Edition, 1976, The Westminster Press.

Yes, this famous Bible scholar and translator has (perhaps inadvertently) illuminated the truth of the doctrine of God which was understood by first-century Christians! They had absolutely no concept of the 3-in-one God idea which was developed in later centuries. IF these learned first century Christians had really considered Jesus “equally God” (as fourth century Christendom began doing), it certainly would have been nonsensical for the writer of Hebrews to attempt to prove that Jesus was superior to all other angels!

Famed trinitarian (Southern Baptist) New Testament Greek scholar Dr. A. T. Robertson acknowledges that either “Thy throne, O God” or “God is thy throne” may be proper renderings: “Either makes good sense.” - p. 339. He also tells us that the inspired Letter to the Hebrews was written to a church of Jewish Christians whose Jewish neighbors

“... have urged them to give up Christ and Christianity and to come back to Judaism.... These Jews argued that the prophets were superior to Jesus, the law came by the ministry of angels, Moses was greater than Jesus, and Aaron than Jesus. [The writer of Hebrews] turns the argument on the Jews and boldly champions the Glory of Jesus as superior at every point to all that Judaism had, as God’s Son and man’s Saviour, the crown and glory of the Old Testament prophecy, the hope of mankind. It is the first great apologetic for Christianity and has never been surpassed.” - Word Pictures in the New Testament, Vol. v, pp. 331, 339.

Again, it would have been absolutely absurd for the inspired writer of Hebrews to devote this entire, long letter to proving that Jesus is superior to Moses and the angels if the intended readers, as the spirit-born Christians they were, had already accepted Jesus as God Almighty! And even if they had originally believed that Jesus was God, but were now in doubt, the Bible writer certainly wouldn’t waste any time trying to prove Jesus’ superiority to Moses (or the angels). He would have dedicated the entire letter to proving absolutely that Jesus is God (if he had really believed such a thing himself)!

The American Standard Version (ASV), the Revised Standard Version (RSV), the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), and The New English Bible (NEB) have provided honest alternate readings to the traditional trinitarian rendering of the KJV at Hebrews 1:8. These alternate readings (found in footnotes) agree with Dr. Moffatt’s, Dr. Barclay’s, Smith-Goodspeed’s, Byington’s, and the New World Translation’s renderings of this scripture (“God is your throne”).

Even Young’s Concise Bible Commentary (written by the noted trinitarian author of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible) admits: “[Heb. 1:8] may be justly rendered ‘God is thy throne ....’”

“Seen Me: Seen Father” - Jn 14:7-9

John 14:1 - “believe in God, believe also in me.” 14:7 - “If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. verse 8) Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. verse 9) Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? verse 10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.” - ASV.

We can understand what Jesus actually intended when he said “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” and “the Father is abiding in me.” And it is not very difficult to understand his saying, “If you had known me, you would have known my Father” since Jesus is in perfect harmony with the Father’s will and purpose (i.e. “one,” “in,” etc.). But what about “he that has seen me has seen the Father”?

First, let’s examine the relationship between “abiding in,” “knowing,” and “seeing” (horao in NT Greek) as commonly used figuratively in the Bible. 1 John 2:3, 5, 6 - “by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments .... By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner He walked [your purpose, actions words, and life must reflect his example].” - NASB. And 1 John 3:29, “he that keeps His [God’s] commandments abides in Him, and He in him.” - NASB. These scriptures show, again, the intended meaning for the figurative use of “abides.”

Now notice the relationship between “know” and “see”: 3 John 11 - “the one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen [horao] God.” And 1 John 3:6 - “No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen [horao] Him or knows Him.” - NASB.

We can see, then, that horao (“see”) can mean the same thing as “abiding in” or “knowing,” and all three may have the figurative meaning of agreement in purpose and will with someone else.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, vol. 4, p. 380, tells us:

“What is seen in a vision is a revelation from God. Statements that human beings have seen or will see God Himself do not refer to a perception of a physical aspect of God by human physical senses but a process of coming to some amount of understanding of God, often just a simple realization of His greatness or some other aspect of His nature, either by a revelatory vision (Isa. 6:15; Ezk. 1:26-28), … or by their acquaintance with Jesus Christ (Jn 14:9, cf. 1:18).” – Eerdmans, 1991.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Vol. 3, 1986 printing, Zondervan, pp. 513, 515, 518, explains the meanings of horao.

“Horao” means “... become aware (Gen. 37:1). (b) figuratively it comes to be used of intellectual or spiritual perception .... It also means ... attend to, know or have experienced (Deut. 11:2), or be concerned about something (Gen. 37:14; Is. 5:12).” - p. 513. - - “Besides the general meaning of to know, horao and its derivatives can mean to obtain knowledge”. - p. 515.

This trinitarian reference also states:

“For the NT God is utterly invisible (Jn 6:46; 1 Tim. 1:17; 6:16; Col. 1:15) ... yet the resurrection narratives especially stress that the risen Christ is visible.” - p. 518.

Professor Joseph H. Thayer (who was “the dean of New Testament scholars in America” - Dictionary of American Biography, Vol. IX) in his Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (“a standard in the field”) also defines horao with similar meanings and specifically tells us that John 14:7, 9 is in the category of “2. to see with the mind, to perceive, to KNOW.”

In discussing this meaning of “horao,” Thayer writes:

“to know God’s will, 3 John 11; from the intercourse and influence of Christ to have come to see (know) God’s majesty, saving purposes, and WILL, Jn. xiv. 7, 9”. - p. 451, Baker Book House, 1984 printing.

We can understand, then, why the very trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, 1985, Zondervan, explains John 14:7 this way:

“Once more Jesus stresses the intimate connection between the Father and himself. Jesus brought a full revelation of the Father (cf. 1:18), so that the apostles had real knowledge of him.” - footnote for John 14:7.

Noted New Testament scholar, Dr. William Barclay, also comments on John 14:7-9:

“The Jews [including Jesus, of course, and those to whom he spoke] would count it as an article of faith that no man had seen God at any time .... To see Jesus is to see what God is like.” - p. 159. “‘He who has seen me has seen the Father,’ Jesus is the revelation of God.” - p. 161.

So there is no real reason to insist that John 14:7, 9 shows Jesus as being equally God with his Father. The probability is that, in harmony with the usage of the time, Jesus was merely saying that what he spoke came from God, and what he did is what God directed. He meant that understanding what he did and said was like knowing (“seeing”) God (as, in a similar sense, those who literally saw angels sent by God and speaking God’s words were said to have “seen God” - see the SF study). Jesus is totally in harmony with (“one” with) the Father in purpose (see the ONE study) so that we can “see” the Father’s will in Jesus.

Origen, the greatest and most knowledgeable early Christian scholar of the NT Greek explained John 14:9:

“But ... God is invisible .... Whereas, on the contrary, God, the Father of Christ, is said to be seen, because ‘he who sees the Son,’ he says, ‘sees also the Father.’ This certainly would press us hard [to explain], were the expression not understood by us more correctly of understanding, and not of seeing. For he who has understood the Son will understand the Father also.” - p. 277, vol. iv, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Eerdmans Publishing.

As in all other “Jesus is equally God” evidence, we find that the trinitarian “proof” is a scripture that can honestly be translated or interpreted in at least one other way which would prove no such thing!

We never find a statement clearly stating that “Jesus is equally and fully God” in the entire Bible. And yet other such essential knowledge that leads to eternal life is clearly and repeatedly emphasized: “Jesus is the Christ [Messiah],” “our savior and king” - the one who appears before God in heaven in our behalf, the one through whom we must approach God. Surely this most important information in the Bible of exactly who God is and exactly who Jesus is would not be hidden from us in the slightest degree!

Father, .... This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. - NASB.

DNB said:

You are going to have to do one-thousand times better than that, if you are trying to prove something as enigmatic, implausible and utterly contradictory and ridiculous as a man being God, ...and blasphemous.

Click to expand...

Have you read Phil 2 lately? Who is your redeemer if not God? And how did God atone for your sin?

Before Abraham was, I am. Where in the world do you get a declaration of Christ's deity from this, that you can afford to be so dogmatic about it, or even audacious enough to even make the proposition? Are you aware of how many men, outside of Jesus, used ego eimi to refer to themselves? For even grammatically, the phrase does not make sense according to your interpretation. You correlated two extremely disparate passages that the context or expression, and especially the concept, just does not warrant. Jesus was the first-born of all creation despite his chronology implying otherwise, therefore he was before Abraham, and therefore, the perplexity and confusion of his audience.

Click to expand...

What does 'first born' mean?

Davy wrote:

Here's an example that every Jew should be well familiar with, and have NO EXCUSE to deny that Jesus of Nazareth is God The Savior come in the flesh...

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. - KJV

And just to make sure we know that is talking about The Son, the Isaiah 9:7 verse shows it's the One Who is given to reign upon the throne of David, which of course per the prophets is only for The Son.

Make no mistake. Jesus The Christ is God


...........................



Jews do not consider this scripture as showing the Messiah to be God. In fact the belief is that he cannot be God!

Isaiah 9:6

The NASB says at Is. 9:6 –

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some trinitsrians will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words “Mighty God, Eternal Father,” then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father.”

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah but in a subordinate, lesser sense. In other words, Christ is “a mighty god” in the same sense that God’s angels were called “gods” and the judges of Israel were called “gods” by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), and Moses was called “a god” by Jehovah himself.

The word “god” as understood by those who used that term simply meant “one who is mighty in some sense” - see Young’s Concordance. This could include mighty in strength or authority. And the word “Mighty” as found at Is. 9:6 is also applied to the angels at Ps. 103:20.

............................

And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it does not apply directly to the Messiah himself.

This is the same way that many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names (e.g. Abijah, Elijah, Isaiah, Joab, Elihu, etc.) were meant to apply to something or someone other than themselves. Often these personal names are praising or recognizing the Almighty God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today (as mentioned in my post #3 above). The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original footnote - bolding is mine.

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3

Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name has been honestly translated in the footnote for Is. 9:6 as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

Of course it could also honestly be translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”


This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; [b] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; [b] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.


So it is clear, even to a trinitarian scholar, that Is. 9:6 was not intended to imply that Jesus is God.

Davy said:

Make no mistake, Jesus of Nazareth said He is God in the Scriptures. Not only did He say it, but The Father said it also.

Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
KJV

Matt 1:22-23
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV

Jesus as The Christ was prophesied to come, Immanuel being one of His titles. We are told by Apostle Matthew what His title of Immanuel means, "God with us". That means God come in the flesh through woman's womb. Jesus is God, come in the flesh.


In John 8, our Lord Jesus is conversing with the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees who tried to trap His words.

John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

The 'I AM THAT I AM' is the sacred name GOD gave to Moses upon Mt. Sinai (Exodus 3:14-15). Our Lord Jesus just said to those blind scribes and Pharisees directly that He is God. And to show that they understood that, they took up stones to stone Jesus for blasphemy.


In the following, Apostle Paul (writer of Hebrews I believe) quoted from Psalms 45 where The Father is calling The Son, "O God":

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows."
KJV

That is unmistakable that The Father is calling Jesus as God.


When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection, He answered Philip who want to know who The Father is...

John 14:8-9
8 Philip saith unto him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."

9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'
KJV

By that, "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father", Jesus just said that He is God.


Here's an example that every Jew should be well familiar with, and have NO EXCUSE to deny that Jesus of Nazareth is God The Savior come in the flesh...

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV

And just to make sure we know that is talking about The Son, the Isaiah 9:7 verse shows it's the One Who is given to reign upon the throne of David, which of course per the prophets is only for The Son.

Make no mistake. Jesus The Christ is God.

Click to expand...

well then why "Son of God"? which is who the Jews were waiting for and expected. and Jesus makes the distinction between Him and His Father in Heaven.

Davy said:

Too late. GOD has ALREADY proven it Himself, in His Word of Truth. Thank you for identifying your refusal to believe it as written. We now know you follow what the Pharisees thought about it too.

Click to expand...

Wow, look at that, I actually thought that you were going to address my contentions, ...as a responsible exegete would, or as the OP should?
You're going to stick to your nonsense, with such a feeble and incompetent testimony? You can't either elaborate on your points, or provide further substantiation to you rather incomprehensible and ignoble doctrine?

Chris1964 said:

Have you read Phil 2 lately? Who is your redeemer if not God? And how did God atone for your sin?
What does 'first born' mean?

Click to expand...

Yes, the 'Carmen Christi' i have read many times, and recently. Have you? These are the sentiments of a 1st century man who read the Scriptures and understood his pre-eminent status above all other man, and his ultimate destiny as the Messiah. And he did not consider equality with God something to be gained, but still appreciated his subordination to God, and his duty to serve man. It is ludicrous to say that God, after orchestrating the atonement, had to, for one, deny his deity, and two, remember what he came to earth for. How can God, not consider equality with God, as feasible, if He is God??? Why would He consider undermining his own efforts, by contemplating something adverse to His own mission (obligated to humble Himself not as God). These thoughts would have never crossed the one's mind who devised the plan for atonement, but they would've crossed the mind of the one chosen to fulfill it, since it was not by his own design. You see the ridiculousness in the trinitarian interpretation of these passages?

My redeemer is Jesus Christ, and his effectuation of the Atonement was orchestrated by God. This is how God offered redemption. God cannot atone for man's sin, for God is the victim and man is the culprit, thus a mediator was required who cannot be God. Elementary!

Christ is the first-born of God's creation, man was created for Christ, not Christ for man, despite man being created first historically speaking. The mystery is in Christ's chronology, not his ontology.

Davy said:

Make no mistake, Jesus of Nazareth said He is God in the Scriptures. Not only did He say it, but The Father said it also.

Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
KJV

Matt 1:22-23
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV

Jesus as The Christ was prophesied to come, Immanuel being one of His titles. We are told by Apostle Matthew what His title of Immanuel means, "God with us". That means God come in the flesh through woman's womb. Jesus is God, come in the flesh.


In John 8, our Lord Jesus is conversing with the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees who tried to trap His words.

John 8:56-59
56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad."

57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."

59 Then took they up stones to cast at Him: but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
KJV

The 'I AM THAT I AM' is the sacred name GOD gave to Moses upon Mt. Sinai (Exodus 3:14-15). Our Lord Jesus just said to those blind scribes and Pharisees directly that He is God. And to show that they understood that, they took up stones to stone Jesus for blasphemy.


In the following, Apostle Paul (writer of Hebrews I believe) quoted from Psalms 45 where The Father is calling The Son, "O God":

Heb 1:8-9
8 But unto the Son He saith, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows."
KJV

That is unmistakable that The Father is calling Jesus as God.


When Jesus appeared to His disciples after His resurrection, He answered Philip who want to know who The Father is...

John 14:8-9
8 Philip saith unto him, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us."

9 Jesus saith unto him, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, 'Shew us the Father?'
KJV

By that, "he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father", Jesus just said that He is God.


Here's an example that every Jew should be well familiar with, and have NO EXCUSE to deny that Jesus of Nazareth is God The Savior come in the flesh...

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV

And just to make sure we know that is talking about The Son, the Isaiah 9:7 verse shows it's the One Who is given to reign upon the throne of David, which of course per the prophets is only for The Son.

Make no mistake. Jesus The Christ is God.

Click to expand...

John 13:13
13 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."

Mark 10:18
"So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God."

In Mark 10:18 is Jesus implying that he is not God?

"Mark 10:18 has been used by some Christians and commentators to show just the opposite, namely, that Jesus was alluding to himself as God, i.e., his deity. In other words, the rich young ruler calls him “Good teacher.” When Jesus says that only God is good, he is thus trying to hint at his own deity (since the man called him “good”) which the young man failed to see.

The point of Jesus’ reply, however, is not to draw attention to His deity, but to help the rich young ruler understand that in absoluteness, only God is good and that he can have much more with the Lord than legal obedience. He can have a relationship, “treasures in heaven” as it were (vv. 21)."

In Mark 10:18 is Jesus implying that he is not God? | Bible.org

DNB said:

Yes, the 'Carmen Christi' i have read many times, and recently. Have you? These are the sentiments of a 1st century man who read the Scriptures and understood his pre-eminent status above all other man, and his ultimate destiny as the Messiah. And he did not consider equality with God something to be gained, but still appreciated his subordination to God, and his duty to serve man.

Click to expand...

He didn't consider equality with God something to be gained because He is God! You don't desire something you already possess. And yes, Phil 2 is a testimony to His humility. As a human He certainly was subordinate to God the Father. As God, He is equal in every way.

It is ludicrous to say that God, after orchestrating the atonement, had to, for one, deny his deity, and two, remember what he came to earth for. How can God, not consider equality with God, as feasible, if He is God??? Why would He consider undermining his own efforts, by contemplating something adverse to His own mission (obligated to humble Himself not as God). These thoughts would have never crossed the one's mind who devised the plan for atonement, but they would've crossed the mind of the one chosen to fulfill it, since it was not by his own design. You see the ridiculousness in the trinitarian interpretation of these passages?

Click to expand...

More straw men. He never denied His deity nor did He 'remember' what He came to earth for. The rest is your opinion.

My redeemer is Jesus Christ, and his effectuation of the Atonement was orchestrated by God. This is how God offered redemption. God cannot atone for man's sin, for God is the victim and man is the culprit, thus a mediator was required who cannot be God. Elementary!

Click to expand...

God absolutely atoned for our sin because no one else can. Our kinsmen redeemer is God incarnate.

Christ is the first-born of God's creation, man was created for Christ, not Christ for man, despite man being created first historically speaking. The mystery is in Christ's chronology, not his ontology.

Click to expand...

That does not tell me what 'first born ' means. Give a verse, the word and a lexical definition.

Chris1964 said:

He didn't consider equality with God something to be gained because He is God! You don't desire something you already possess.

Click to expand...

Philippians 2 indeed says so...

tigger 2 said:

Davy wrote:

Here's an example that every Jew should be well familiar with, and have NO EXCUSE to deny that Jesus of Nazareth is God The Savior come in the flesh...

Isa 9:6-7
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. - KJV

And just to make sure we know that is talking about The Son, the Isaiah 9:7 verse shows it's the One Who is given to reign upon the throne of David, which of course per the prophets is only for The Son.

Make no mistake. Jesus The Christ is God


...........................



Jews do not consider this scripture as showing the Messiah to be God. In fact the belief is that he cannot be God!

Isaiah 9:6

The NASB says at Is. 9:6 –

“For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; and His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

All Christians, I believe, accept this son as being the Christ. Some trinitsrians will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words “Mighty God, Eternal Father,” then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father.”

But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God”) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.

First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah but in a subordinate, lesser sense. In other words, Christ is “a mighty god” in the same sense that God’s angels were called “gods” and the judges of Israel were called “gods” by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), and Moses was called “a god” by Jehovah himself.

The word “god” as understood by those who used that term simply meant “one who is mighty in some sense” - see Young’s Concordance. This could include mighty in strength or authority. And the word “Mighty” as found at Is. 9:6 is also applied to the angels at Ps. 103:20.

............................

And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it does not apply directly to the Messiah himself.

This is the same way that many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names (e.g. Abijah, Elijah, Isaiah, Joab, Elihu, etc.) were meant to apply to something or someone other than themselves. Often these personal names are praising or recognizing the Almighty God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today (as mentioned in my post #3 above). The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).” - bracketed information is in the original footnote - bolding is mine.

But perhaps most instructive of all is the name given to the prophet’s child in Isaiah 8:3 shortly before his giving the name found in Is. 9:6.

Is. 8:3

Maher-shalal-hash-baz: Literally, “spoil speeds prey hastes” or “swift booty speedy prey.” Translated by various Bible scholars as: “In making speed to the spoil he hasteneth the prey” - - “swift [is] booty, speedy [is] prey” - - “the spoil speeded, the prey hasteth” - - “Speeding for spoil, hastening for plunder” - - “There will soon be looting and stealing”- - “Speeding is the spoil, Hastening is the prey” - - “The Looting Will Come Quickly; the Prey Will Be Easy” - - “Take sway the spoils with speed, quickly take the prey” - - “Swift is the booty, speedy is the prey” - - “Swift the Spoils of War and Speedy Comes the Attacker” - - “Make haste to plunder! Hurry to the spoil!” - - “Make haste to the spoil; fall upon the prey.” - - “Your enemies will soon be destroyed.’” - TLB. - - “They hurry to get what they can. They run to pick up what is left.” - NLV.

And John Gill wrote:

“‘hasten to seize the prey, and to take away the spoil.’ Some translate it, ‘in hastening the prey, the spoiler hastens’; perhaps it may be better rendered, ‘hasten to the spoil, hasten to the prey.’”

Therefore, the personal name has been honestly translated in the footnote for Is. 9:6 as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

The Leeser Bible also translates it:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

Of course it could also honestly be translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[1] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

[2] The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”


This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz” means [a]“quick to the plunder; [b] swift to the spoil” - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; [b] unto us a son is given.” It would, therefore, be appropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.


So it is clear, even to a trinitarian scholar, that Is. 9:6 was not intended to imply that Jesus is God.

Click to expand...

Great work and exegesis!