The Baptism In The Holy Spirit

Jimmy Engle;74855 said:

Does a person have to be baptized with the holy spirit in order to be saved or born again?

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Christina;74859]There is only one baptism one religion one God ..[B][SIZE=3]When you accept Jesus Christ as your savior and confess your sins You have just received the Holy Spirit .... And you are now a new man in Christ[/SIZE][/B] .... [U]and do not ever let anyone tell you differnt[/U] ... This tongues and the gifts they speak of have nothing to do with baptism or the Holy spirit ..except that one must [U]already be a professing Christian[/U] if they were to receive a gift .. [B][U]The gift doesnt give you the spirit[/U]........ you already have it when you accepted Christ ... ... [/B] [URL=http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=5&v=17&t=KJV#17][COLOR=#0000ff]2Cr 5:17[/COLOR][/URL]Therefore if any man [be] in Christ said:

a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. Eph 4:24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. I personally beleve the gifts have ceased ... and they have changed today every person has a gift ... be it charity, teaching, preaching, kind words, even personality that brings joy to others .. I believe these gifts in 1 Cor. were for building the church ... The church is established so now the gifts are personal to the believer .. But whether you agree or not .. its still not the gifts you need to have his spirit its the belief in your heart/mind he is Christ

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TallMan;74873]Very important question said:

[/FONT]Conclusion There is one experience of receiving the Holy Spirit also known as the baptism in the Holy Spirit and being born again. These are synonymous terms for receiving the salvation of God. Man has lost his way, but God's answer is simple and certain Some Other Points 1) In Acts 8v12-18 we read of people who believed what they had heard about Jesus, but it was known that they had not received the Holy Spirit. So, believing in and confessing Jesus does not mean you are born again. 2) Similarly, the believers who Paul baptised in Acts 19v5-6 were known not to have received the Spirit, that's why Paul prayed for them until they did receive.3) “by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit” (1 Corinthians12v13) - The baptism in the Spirit is how God adds people to his church, there is no such thing as a Christian who is not a member of God's church! A person not baptised in the Spirit simply isn't a Christian yet. We are "made to drink" as we speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.A Warning Jesus spoke against putting new wine into old bottles. Some people are trying to fit the way the Holy Spirit works into man's traditions and doctrines, so instead of having one church like the New Testament describes where all have received the infilling of the Spirit, we find various “churches” where some people have the Spirit, some don't. Also, 1 Corinthians 14 details what God wants in meetings – the orderly use of all the gifts and ministries by all members. Instead, many find either pre-set liturgy read by a select few ministers and/or emotionalism and supposed new moves of God that last for a while.Result: entertainment but no clear vision or firm foundation, ending in disillusionment. God's Solution Join a church like the one described in the new testament and don't compromise. In doing this you truly love God and people. Jesus' bride will be those who are faithful to him, not those who change things to please men.

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logabe;74878]I guess I"ll start by saying...the infillingof the Holy Ghost was a very interestingexperience for me needless to say. Thescripture that comes to my mind is in Acts1:8 said:

8 But ye shall receive power, after that [/B]the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Jesus had talked with his disciples for overthree years and I am sure most of themthought he was the Son Of God. But hetold them to go to Jerusalem and receivea gift he had for them. So we can agreethat the disciples already had a "Passoverexperience" which was believing on the Lambof God. I'm sure they all thought that they had every-thing they needed in order to be saved afterseeing Jesus come back to life and spending40 days with them and teaching them thethings of the Kingdom. But that wasn't thecase because, now... he tells them they needsome "Pentecost Power" in order to be a witnessin the Kingdom. We know the story... the disciples changed andinfluenced a whole generation of people after the Holy Ghost had came upon them in the upperroom experience. What a DAY! 25 years later, a man named Paul passed throughthe upper coast and came to Ephesus: and findingcertain disciples, he said unto them, 2 have you received the Holy Ghost since youbelieved? Wow, did you see that? These disciples believedbut they didn't even know that the Holy Ghost "after 25 years" had been given. Paul ask, whatthen, " if you don't know about the Holy Ghost",how were you baptised? Acts 19:4, 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Now let's rightly divide the Word of Truth and Ihope no one get's offended. When we have a"Passover Experience", it simply means we believethe report that God has given us about His Son. A "Pentecostal Experience" is about learning obedience and hearing God's voice and that takes POWER to overcome everyday things and stay sane. In Pentecost, you receive anearnest of the Spirit ( down payment), and you begin to kill the old man daily. That is the whole purpose of God's plan, which is, allowingpeople to choose whether they want to be aleader ( Pentecost) or a citizen ( Passover) inthe Kingdom. If you choose to be a leader by learning to obeyGod's command, at the end of the age, God willreward you with a crown. You will become a Kingand a Priest to rule with Jesus Christ being Kingof Kings. Logabe

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Wow, did you see that? These disciples believedbut they didn't even know that the Holy Ghost "after 25 years" had been given.

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Miss Hepburn;74880][B][COLOR=Purple]For those that have never gone up to what some call an altar call - to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit --I think with the laying on of hands and all...how come you haven said:

something[/I]. Different for each person.And not to belittle what you have experienced to date.No' date=' it is not "necessary". And the fullness of your heart probablymakes you wonder why would you need to do anything else?If anyone is having a reaction to this question - why?What keeps a person from receiving this gift freely given?Acts 19:6 as mentioned above was good to post.[/COLOR'][/B]

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Butch5;74890 said:

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that anyone who has not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it was bestowed in Acts 2 on the apostles is not a Christian?

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Second I disagree with you on the water baptism ... Water does nothing ... Its an outward sign of the washing away of sins ..Its much desired even prefered but not required ... Belief comes from the heart not the outward washing ..but the inward acceptance ... Think of the thief on the cross Jesus said he would see him that very day in heaven ... A solidier on a battlefield can accept Christ with his dying breath ... Water baptism is a desired thing for a Christian as its a public statement of your conversion ... But God reads our heart not our public statements .... Upon acceptance and repentance you are made a new man the spitit of Christ in you does this not water... -Christina

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Yes!I love that you brought up the thief next to Jesus!I may have been physically healed and I may speak in tongues ---but you don't have to have either to be beloved of the Lord and be His saved child... And feel the Joy of His Boundless Love.

Miss Hepburn;74894][COLOR=Purple]I admit I am new to this Christian "stuff" ---I have not studied for years as many of you - I do not have my nose in the Bible all the time -though I said:

forced[/I] myself (which I tried Ha!) to mimic a "ba" sound I have to date can not -----(Someone mocked tongues by saying they all say "Ba ba" alot) So I tried to force myself to even form the sound "ba" and couldn't --- I belly laughed myself happy. At the absurdity ----how people that do not pray in tongues ---have no idea ----as I did not !It is a wonder - and I do not expect anyone to understand. But if someone wants to, as I wanted to months ago and saught help ---I would be more than glad to talk with you -as best I can. It is very new - but I understand some.[/COLOR]

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Butch5;74897]Also why do you pray in tongues or speak in tongues in the church? Paul said tongues was for unbelievers said:

The church I sometimes go to -no one speaks in tongues ( publicly).A lady in front of me turned her head to look to the back of the church as someone stood to be pointed out as having been healed recently ---and she whispered in tongues in front of me and I found it fascinating. I had no idea what that was. But, boy was she smiling big.I'm sure not the one to speak as some authority - that's for sure. I know that many people on diff forums have quoted verses saying it is a prayer language from you to God that the devil can't understand or interfer with ---probably someone here will come up with it.I'm glad it was all new to me and I didn't have alot of ideas about it. I may not have gone up in front of all those people that evening.

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If someone has the gift of healing why are they never at a hospital healing sick children ? At a vets hospital ? No they are always behind a pulpit claiming to have more faith than the next person .... Now the mind is a powerful thing ... and the placebo effect cannot be ignored here.... But the healing in the bible was of physically visible aliments ... No one has ever presented any proof of healing a broken bone for example its always I heard so and so over in this town did such and such I heard brother say he was healed of some invisable aflection .. Never anything provable.... in fact more have died from religious fanatics not taking their loved ones to a hospital/doctor -Christina

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Well, I understand your post. I can not say I have the "gift" - but we all by the grace of the Holy Spirit can pray for a healing - I have never done it once that it hasn't happened. Now, the funny thing and I've read on this alot ---and 20/20 did a followup with "healed" people ---they on an average LOSE their healing ---it could be in 10 minutes or 2 weeks! But, often they lose it.I did not.Whew, what it takes each day for me to talk to God thanking Him and humbling praising Him that He has healed me and and continues to.If I started into some spiral of depression and doubt, do you think I could maintain my healing? I fear not. It is a daily praise party I have with the Lord. It took days for me to be completely healed and I never once, not even for a moment lost faith (belief) that He was working behind the scenes on my problem ----until - one morning I popped out of bed -like a "normal person". I laugh everyday -when I get out of my car and walk into a store! I smile when I get up from a table with friends. I actually can get up and walk - and sometimes show off and bend and pop up and sit on my ankles and pop up again! Just to show off and give all the glory to God - no there's no proof bec I'm not going to go back to the physical therapists or doctors to take an X-ray - I don't need to. It would cost too much.Oh I suppose I could get something written down signed if I wanted to prove to someone something ---but my smile is the proof.But, there is proof, all over the place - research it - you'll find it- some did happen years ago by Smith Wigglesworth so you probably wouldn't believe that. I'll give you a website in a pm to another place where you could watch for free testimonials from people that have been healed -but, see, I don't know if you would believe that either.Jane, that sat in front of me a few weeks ago was in hospice dying of AIDS -the Dr. called the pastor to talk to her bec she was delusional - she wouldn't accept that she was indeed dying!! Well, that was 3 years ago and she goes in every 6 months -no AIDS virus is now present in her blood. The pastor went there with some others and prayed.I can get you that number and website also. But, would it do any good?I'm thinking not. I dunno. So, I'll make you a deal, if you'd like these let me know and I will give them to you.There is a difference between someone having some miraclous gift of healing, I suppose - that can go around just touching people ---and someone that asks their friend or pastor to come and pray over them.I asked a friend in the summer -that had never done a healing ---I said, "You're not leaving till you lay your hands on my knee, bec I'm getting a sharp, scary pain in it." -something seemed to be coming back, uh-oh (the orig. problem was way more than one knee!)...so she did and bingo ---never have had another problem ---and it was a scary pain -whew -very sharp and steady. Proof? - no.A non believer, as Christian's like to label people, had a severe gall bladder issue --she believes in a Superior Universal Power ---good enough for me!!I touched under the folds of her fat to her gall bladder and prayed in tongues under my breath (bec she said she'd start laughing if I did it out loud!)The second I took my fingers away -she said," I felt something move the second you took your hand away...I mean, I really did ... -it was like this blip of movement..."Well, she has never had another pain and admits she regettfully has gone back to eating bad foods and she'd better stop it. That was months ago. Her surgery for removal was planned for Sept 09. Proof? - no.It was probably coincidence. Am I making this stuff up? Why?Oh, I suppose to give God more glory --sure that would be just like me -lie to glorify God! LOL!!

Butch5;74890]I said:

Yes' date=' [/I'] a Christian is someone who has received the Holy Spirit because “Christ” or “Messiah” means “anointed one” and the anointing is the Holy Spirit. Romans 8v9 states:-“you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” So, it's vital to receive the Holy Spirit, but he is invisible and we cannot trust our own hearts that we are right with God . . . "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17v9) Jesus warns that many who call Him "Lord" will be told "I never knew you", he's talking about church-goers, not agnostics ! So, God must bare independent witness, the apostles waited for this … In the new testament it is known precisely when people receive the Holy Spirit, and when they hadn't. The way of salvation hasn't changed. At Pentecost, the Holy Spirit began to be given as never before, making people sons of God. 120 disciples “were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance ... having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he has shed forth this, which you now SEE and HEAR ... For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to ALL that are afar off, even AS MANY AS the Lord our God shall call.” (Acts 2v4, 33, 39) If you were told that what you could "see and hear" (the speaking in tongues) was the promised Holy Spirit, and that this was to you and all who God would call, wouldn’t you expect to speak in tongues, or be told if this was not the case? With the gentiles (Acts 10v44):-“the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.” How was this known? (v46) “For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.”If it is possible to receive the Spirit and NOT speak in tongues, the apostles were wrong to judge that the Spirit had just fallen upon people when they spoke in tongues. Logically they could only say that people had at some unknown time previously received the Spirit, but they didn't.

The “Born Again” Experience​

Just as a natural baby cries when it is born, so there is a “cry” when someone is born of God: “because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father” (Galatians 4v6) Jesus described it: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said to you, Ye must be born again. The wind blows (greek: the spirit breathes) where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it comes, and whither it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit” (John3v6-8) This fits what began to happen at Pentecost, and was prophesied in Zechariah 12v10: “I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications”

Tongues is Prayer (“Supplication”) in the Holy Spirit​

All Christians are told to pray in the Spirit, so obviously they know what it is! Jude 19-21 speaks of those who would “separate themselves” (claim to be holy) but who don't actually have the Spirit, whereas those who have are told: “building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keep yourselves in the love of God” Similarly, 1 Corinthians 14v2, 4 says: “he that speaks in an unknown tongue speaks not to men, but to God...in the spirit he speaks mysteries...He...edifies himself" Only God's Spirit understands the things of God (1 Corinthians 2v9-11, Romans 8v26), so we need him to lead us in prayer for these things. Isaiah 28v11-12 (quoted in 1 Cor. 14v21-22) describes tongues as “the rest” and “the refreshing” as we rest from our own efforts and are refreshed by God's abilities.

“The Gift of Tongues”​

This is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 and refers to the meetings-use, giving to the church of attributes that all Christians have for private use. The same passage also says: “to one is given … the word of wisdom, to another the word of knowledge ... to another faith” (1 Corinthians12v8-10) That's why it says “to one...”. In meetings only one person should speak at once, to give a clear message from God and avoid confusion. It is precisely because all Christians have all these attributes that there needs to be limitation and order when they all meet. Many people have never been to a meeting like God details in 1 Corinthians 11, 12 & 14! Therefore, it's little wonder they mis-use "the gifts" passage.

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Miss Hepburn;74902][COLOR=Purple]The church I sometimes go to -no one speaks in tongues ( publicly).A lady in front of me turned her head to look to the back of the church as someone stood to be pointed out as having been healed recently ---and she whispered in tongues in front of me and I found it fascinating. I had no idea what that was. But said:

That comes from a misunderstanding of what Paul said. He was actually rebuking the Corinthians, not teaching them a new prayer language. I wouldn't make much sense for Paul to teach them a new prayer language and then tell them that prophecy is better than tongues.here is the context of 1 Corinthians, the context that Paul refers to the gifts in.The whole book was written to correct the Corinthians because they were edifying themselves; they were puffed up as Paul says. They were using their gifts to edify themselves and not the church, this is Paul’s whole argument. He starts out getting on them for having divisions among them, I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, etc. This is wrong they are all of Christ, who taught them doesn’t matter. 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 ( KJV ) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?Can you can see the context and perspective of Paul‘s letter? He is writing to correct these, envying, strife, and divisions. This letter is written from this perspective. He continues,1 Corinthians 4:5-6 ( KJV ) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.Can you see what they were doing? Envy, strife, divisions, that no man think higher of men than what is written, that none of them be puffed up one against another. Can you begin to imagine what was going on in this church? They were trying to outdo each other, everyone wanted to be the best, have the best gift, be above the next guy, keep up with the Joneses. This is the perspective that the letter was written from and the perspective that it should be read from.Look at the sarcasm in this next passage as Paul writes,1 Corinthians 4:7-13 ( KJV ) For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. We are fools for Christ’s sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.Can you see the sarcasm??? I highlighted in blue what Paul says of the Corinthians and in green what he says of himself and the apostles. The Corinthians were glorying and edifying themselves and were puffed up against one another and look what Paul says. Who makes you different from another. In modern English we would say ‘what makes you better than anyone else’? Then Paul gets sarcastic, Oh look at you, you are full and rich, you have reigned as kings, but look at us (apostles) we are last appointed to death, made a spectacle. We (apostles) are fools, not you, you Corinthians are wise, we (apostles) are weak , but not you, you Corinthians are strong. We (apostles) are despised, but not you, you Corinthians are honorable. Can you see the sarcasm? This man is an apostle of Jesus Christ, his authority is far more than that of the Corinthians. He continues,Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.In other words the apostles have suffered all of this and yet the Corinthians are glorifying and edifying themselves, they are trying to see who is the best in Christ, who has the best gift, who has the most wisdom. Paul is ripping them. Then He tells them,1 Corinthians 4:14-16 ( KJV ) I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.They should be ashamed, the way they were acting was shameful. However, Paul says I am not saying this just to shame you but that you will learn how to act. He tells them be followers of me. In other words stop glorifying and edifying yourselves and suffer as we (apostles) do for Christ. He continues,1 Corinthians 4:18-21 ( KJV ) Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you. But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?It doesn’t get any clearer, shall I come with a rod? He is telling them, I will come either in love or with a rod, it is up to you.1 Corinthians 5:1-6 ( KJV ) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?Can you see? Time after time Paul is ripping them for their behavior. This entire letter is like this.Again,1 Corinthians 6:1-8 ( KJV ) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.In chapter 7 he begins to deal with specific questions, and instructs them on food sacrificed to idols, the Lord’s supper, Spiritual gifts, and those denying the resurrection. However, before he launches into his instruction on the Lord’s supper, Spiritual gift and those denying the resurrection he says,1 Corinthians 11:17-19 ( KJV ) Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. Can you see? This is the context from which you need to understand the teaching of the gifts.Also,They were being rebuked for their use of tongues in the church, and their self edification. Paul said he spoke in tongues more than all of them, yet he said he would rather speak five words in the church that were understood, than 10,000 words in an unknown tongue. If tongues was for ministry in the church or a prayer language, why would Paul make such a statement??? Five words, how much teaching can a person do with five words? Not much, yet Paul said he would rather speak 5 words in the church that were understood, than 10,000 in an unknown tongue. Need I say anymore?

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Miss Hepburn;74904][COLOR=Purple]I still love that Christina brought up the thief next to Jesus. . . [/COLOR][/QUOTE]Me too said:

New [/I]Covenant. The thief died under the Old Covenant."For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth." (Heb.9:16-17)"this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people" (Heb.8:10, see also 2 Cor.3:3, John 7:39)When ministers of religion take Jesus' words in this passage as proof-text that water & Spirit baptisms are optional they are truly promoting a thief's gospel!

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A closer look . . .Many people assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus immediately before the darkness - the same time of the dialogue reported by Luke (to which you refer):-"The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness . .. " (Matthew 27:43-45)"they that were crucified with him reviled him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour."(Mark 15:32-33) . . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom?Did this thief really have a greater revelation of Jesus victory and coming kingdom than any of the disciples who had walked & talked with Jesus for 3 years??- they were in sorrow and fear, they didn't understand!Or, is it more reasonable to say that the thief was speaking mockingly "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom"If the thief was sincere, this would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time when he represtented man's sin (for which there can be no comfort).But what of the prophesy:-"Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20-21) ?Why does Jesus say "today you shall be with me in paradise"? not just "you shall be with me in paradise"?- No man enters into heaven until Jesus returns!"no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13)"in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Cor. 15:22-23)The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means garden, where Jesus was buried that day; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be put in a tomb in the garden. Normally I would think it unlikely that a common thief would get buried in such a place, unless they just put his body there temporarily?Isaiah 53:9 prophesies:"he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death"Conclusion:Even if the thief was sincere and will be in heaven, people should not be basing their salvation message on Luke 23:43.

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