TallMan---You are using that verse in a misleading way.If a person truly repents, they will get baptised and receive the Spirit.This verse isn't saying that you must get baptised to receive the Spirit - you can receive without getting baptised - see Acts 10:44-48 - the Spirit is received through faith (Gal.3:2), when there is nothing you want more (Luke 11:5-13).
Sorry friend, that verse does say repent and be baptized and you will receive the Holy Spirit. Your example in Acts 10 was a onetime event to show Peter and the Jews that salvation had gone to the Gentiles also. Jesus had told the apostles at the Great Commission to all nations and make disciples, yet the apostles after all this time were still only going to he Jews. It took direct intervention from God to get Peter to go to the Gentiles. Notice you don’t see this instance recorded anywhere else in the Scriptures other than the apostles themselves on Pentecost. God did both of these.
TallMan---I have met people from different groups (old and new) who teach that because they say they have repented and been baptised they must have received the Spirit. Noty so, Only God knows the heart and he bares independant witness (tongues), the apostes waited for this.
Belief is a pre-requisite to repentance and baptism.
TallMan---The people in Acts 8:12-16 believed and were baptised - how did the apostles know they hadn't received the Spirit?
They knew because no apostles had been there yet. It was by the laying on of the apostles hands that the Spirit was given.Acts 8:15-19 ( KJV ) Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw
that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
TallMan---The context nowhere says that "the message" was the promise. the promise is the Spirit of God indwelling, a new covenant confirmed with a new sign, just like God confirmed previous covenants with a specific sign.
I’ll give you this one.
TallMan---Wow, you really believe this doctrine!OK, let's look at Paul too: Acts 19:1-6Note that in v5 Paul re-baptises people unto Jesus because they now believe what Paul has told them, after that Paul lays his hands on them . . . why?- because he knows they have not received the Spirit, even though they believe and were baptised.
The reason Paul rebaptized them is because they were disciples of John not Jesus. Notice their words,Acts 19:2 ( KJV ) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him,
We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. They had not heard that Christ had come, they knew only John’s baptism.Matthew 3:11 ( KJV ) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that
cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
TallMan---And there are only two instances that say the apostles laid on hands to help people receive (Acts 9:17-18 & 19:5-6). And even in those 2 cases it is never said that laying on of hands by an apostle is required.Jesus is "the apostle and high priest" (Heb.3:1), he is the one that baptises in the Spirit, the presence of a man is not required..
Jesus indeed baptizes with the Holy Spirit, and He used the apostle’s hand.Matthew 28:18-20 ( KJV ) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and,
lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.Acts 8:17-19 ( KJV ) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw
that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
TallMan---Jesus appeared and commanded them to receive the Spirit! Jesus breathing on them was prophetic of the "wind" at Pentecost.Just like many of the things Jesus did physically were prophetic of realities they would later come into.Do you believe they were spiritually washed when he washed their feet?Do you believe they literally ate him at the last supper?John's gospel has previously repeatedly told us that the Spirit would be sent by Jesus after he had returned to the Father.I have already gone into this in greater detail on this thread.
If you are going to make a claim that this is prophetic you will need to supply Scripture to support such a claim.They were clean because of the word that Jesus had spoken to them, and He did not tell them at the last supper to eat His flesh, He said the bread represented His flesh. This is irrelevant however, because these things were not prophetic.
TallMan---No it doesn't!There was no voice heard with everyone (3v8)
John three doesn’t fit the description of the new birth?
TallMan---Jesus had been speaking at length about receiving the Holy Spirit in John 14-16, and 20.Other verses specifically refer to the Spirit as "the promise of the Spirit" (Gal.3:14) and "the Spirit of promise" (Eph.1:3).Being baptised in the Spirit is receiving the Spirit. The terms are used interchangeably.
What is the promise of the Spirit spoken of in Gal 3:14?Eph 1 is speaking of the Jews.You might want to check and make sure about the terms being interchangeable.
TallMan---One either has or hasn't received the person of the Spirit, you cannot receive a person and not their power. 2 Tim.1:7 says it is a Spirit of power . . if you have the Spirit within you have the power.How can you have the Spirit of the almighty not and lack power?What nonsense and confusion!
Read the passage carefully, Jesus told the apostles, “you will receive power” when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. They did and they had the manifestations of the Spirit, however, Paul later tells us that these would cease, which they did.
TallMan---Jesus was yoked with the Holy Spirit, Paul quotes the Isaiah 28 prophecy in 1 Cor. 14:21-22 and says that tongues fulfils it in the new testament sense.Yes, foreign tongues were a sign of judgement against Israel in the O.T., now foreign tongues are a sign to people of judgement that Jesus is alive and in those that speak in tongues.
Not so friend, there is “no” other purpose given for tongues, period. It was a sign for a judgment that happened almost 2000 years ago. Since the judgment is past there is no need for the sign any longer.
TallMan---He is rebuking them for all speaking in tongues in meetings instead of speaking words that others can understand and be edified by.So, he wants them to be edified by speaking in tongues, but they should do as he does and do it at home, not in meetings.In meetings they should seek to prophesy, instruct, teach etc."I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others" (1 Cor. 14:18-19)
I believe you are missing his entire point. This letter to the Corinthians is a rebuke for their atrocious behavior. This church had open fornication in it, it had pride, in it, it had divisions, in it and Paul is ripping them for it. The whole book was written to correct the Corinthians because they were edifying themselves; they were puffed up as Paul says. They were using their gifts to edify themselves and not the church, this is Paul’s whole argument. He starts out getting on them for having divisions among them, I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, etc. This is wrong they are all of Christ, who taught them doesn’t matter. 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 ( KJV )
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk,
and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas
there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?Here you can see the context and perspective of Paul‘s letter. He is writing to correct these, envying, strife, and divisions. This letter is written from this perspective. He continues,1 Corinthians 4:5-6 ( KJV ) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes;
that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that
no one of you be puffed up for one against another.Can you see what they were doing? Envy, strife, divisions, that no man think higher of men than what is written, that none of them be puffed up one against another. Can you begin to imagine what was going on in this church? They were trying to outdo each other, everyone wanted to be the best, have the best gift, be above the next guy, keep up with the Joneses. This is the perspective that the letter was written from and the perspective that it should be read from.Look at the sarcasm in this next passage as Paul writes,1 Corinthians 4:7-13 ( KJV )
For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it,
why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. We are fools for Christ’s sake, but ye are wise in Christ;
we are weak,
but ye are strong;
ye are honourable,
but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.Can you see the sarcasm??? I highlighted in blue what Paul says of the Corinthians and in green what he says of himself and the apostles. The Corinthians were glorying and edifying themselves and were puffed up against one another and look what Paul says. Who makes you different from another. In modern English we would ‘what makes you better than anyone else’? Then Paul gets sarcastic, Oh look at you, you are full and rich, you have reigned as kings, but look at us (apostles) we are last appointe to death, made a spectacle. We (apostles) are fools, not you, you Corinthians are wise, we (apostles) are weak , but not you, you Corinthians are strong. We (apostles) are despised, but not you, you Corinthians are honorable. Can you see the sarcasm? This man is an apostle of Jesus Christ, his authority is far more than that of the Corinthians. He continues,Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it: Being defamed, we entreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.In other words the apostles have suffered all of this and yet the Corinthians are glorifying and edifying themselves, they are trying to see who is the best in Christ, who has the best gift, who has the most wisdom. Paul is ripping them. Then He tells them,1 Corinthians 4:14-16 ( KJV )
I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.They should be ashamed, the way they were acting was shameful. However, Paul says I am not saying this just to shame you but that you will learn how to act. He tells them be followers of me. In other words stop glorifying and edifying yourselves and suffer as we (apostles) do for Christ. He continues,1 Corinthians 4:18-21 ( KJV )
Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?It doesn’t get any clearer, shall I come with a rod? He is telling them, I will come either in love or with a rod, it is up to you.1 Corinthians 5:1-6 ( KJV )
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?Can you see? Time after time Paul is ripping them for their behavior. This entire letter is like this.Again,1 Corinthians 6:1-8 ( KJV ) Dare any of you, having a matter against another,
go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore
there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.In chapter 7 he begins to deal with specific questions, and instructs them on food sacrificed to idols, the Lord’s supper, Spiritual gifts, and those denying the resurrection. However, before he launches into his instruction on the Lord’s supper, Spiritual gift and those denying the resurrection he says,1 Corinthians 11:17-19 ( KJV ) Now in this that I declare unto you
I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church,
I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For
there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. Can you see? This is the context from which you need to understand the teaching of the gifts.
TallMan---What do you believe the main use/purpose of speaking in tongues is Butch?
Was. It was a sign of judgment that was to come on the leadership of Jerusalem.
TallMan---Why do you abruptly stop at v10?Paul doesn't! If you read on to v12 talks about two time periods, "now" and "then"."Then", God's people shall know even as they known !They shall see Him face to face !"Now" we see through a glass darkly, so we clearly not in the second time period, so tongues have not ceased, neither have the other means of communication such as prophecy and we still have the natural unredeemed bodies so the need for healing is still here.
I stopped because it was not necessary to continue. Yes, he is speaking of two different times, however, you have misunderstood them. First, if you read the passage carefully you will see that only prophecy and knowledge are in part. Paul does not say tongues are in part. There is something that must be noted here. Paul says that prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, will cease. Prophecy and knowledge will cease when that which is mature comes. Tongues is not in part. Also when Paul says that prophecy and knowledge will cease, the Greek word that he uses is in the passive voice, which means something will cause them to cease. When he says tongues will cease the Greek word is in the middle voice, this means that tongues will cease of its own accord, nothing else is going to affect the cessation of tongues. Why would tongues just cease on it’s own? Well, it seems once it had served it’s purpose there would no longer be a need for tongues. Prophecy and knowledge on the other hand would cease when that which is perfect or mature comes. Above you said “they shall see Him face to face”, the Scriptures don’t say that. It appears that you believe that perfect is the coming of Christ. This cannot be so. There are several reasons which would require another subject to be entered into here. In chapter 13 Paul contrasts those things which will end, prophecy, tongues, and knowledge, with those that will continue, faith, hope, and love. After prophecy, tongues, and knowledge cease, faith, hope, and love, will continue. But what is hope? Paul gives us his understanding of hope.Romans 8:17-25 ( KJV ) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.Our hope is the resurrection when Christ returns. So if our hope is realized at the resurrection then there is no need of hope, Paul said that hope that is realized is not hope, so it cannot continue once it is realized. Therefore the coming of the perfect cannot be the coming of Christ. Also Paul gives us an example of what he means.1 Corinthians 13:8-13 ( KJV ) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.He is speaking of a process of maturity, when Christ returns it will be sudden, not a process. No, Paul is speaking of something coming to maturity, which I believe is the faith. He is speaking of knowing in part and prophesying in part, but when the maturity comes that which is in part shall be done away with. When revelation was complete there would no longer be a need for the gifts of prophecy and knowledge. We can also look at Ephesians and get the same idea.Ephesians 4:11-15 ( KJV ) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: We see again this maturity. What is the purpose of the maturity? It is so that they were not tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Now if this were speaking of the coming of Christ, it would imply that false teaching and false teachers will be in the kingdom of God. I don’t think that will be the case.
TallMan---A false conclusion from a false premise.The New Covenant continues just as it began.It must!Gal. 3:15: Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.I am in an international fellowship of tens of thousands who pray in tongues, and have the other signs of Jesus Christ, and of course we aren't the only ones around today.
Well, my friend, it appears you stand opposed to the apostle.
TallMan---Since you mention history, what is your source and qualifications for saying no-one spoke in tongues since the apostles time?
I didn’t say no one spoke in tongues, I said the gift of tongues ended long ago. I don’t belive that people who speak in tongues today are speaking the word of God. What they are doing, I do not know, but Scripture is clear that the gifts were to confirm that message the apostles were taking into the world.
TallMan---The true church was persecuted, bibles and those that made them were burned in the "dark ages". We are now in the period of the "latter rain" of a great out-pouring of the Spirit after a period of "no rain" (Rev.11:6)
Can you support this claim with Scripture?
TallMan---I do have the following records that you are welcome to check:From German church historian Theodor Sauer's "History of the Christian Church."That this phenomenon is by no means restricted to early Christianity is universally recognized. It was common in the Christian movement as late as Tertullian and Irenaeus. In later years it appeared again, and has been the seemingly inevitable consequence of all extended seasons of 'revivals.'" "It has been (and is) a feature of religious, especially revivalist, activities at many periods of church history." "Tongues recur in Christian revivals in every age, e.g., among...the early Quakers, the converts of Wesley and Whitefield, the persecuted Protestants of the Cevennes, the Irvingites, and the revivalists of Wales and America." Justin Martyr (died 165) "For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time." Irenaeus (died 202) "In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church, who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God." Tertullian (died 220), replying to Marcion, a Gnostic: "Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer - only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy; that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him...Now all these signs are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator..." Novatian (died 257) "This is He who places prophets in the Church, instructs teachers, directs tongues, gives powers and healings, does wonderful works, offers discrimination of spirits, affords powers of government, suggests counsels, and orders and arranges whatever other gifts there are of charismata; and thus makes the Lord's Church everywhere, and in all, perfected and completed." Pachomius (died 346) was reported to have spoken "the language of angels...[and] after seasons of prayer, under the power of the Spirit, was able to speak languages which he had never learned." Bishop Hilary of Poitiers (died 367) mentioned, among other things, "gifts of either speaking or interpreting divers kinds of tongues." He concluded, "Clearly these are the Church's agents of ministry and work of whom the body of Christ consists; and God has ordained them." Theodore of Mopsueste (died 428) "Many heathen amongst us are being healed by Christians from whatever sickness they have, so abundant are miracles in our midst." Augustine (430) experienced a revival that swept North Africa where he was bishop. He wrote of miraculous healings from breast cancer, paralysis, hernia - even raising of the dead after the funeral was arranged. In his own church, two epileptics were instantly healed after they had fallen to the floor in convulsions. "Praise to God was shouted so loud that my ears could scarcely stand the din." Hildegard of Bingen (1098-1179) "sang in unknown words with such facility and winsomeness that her utterances were known as 'concerts in the Spirit'." Francis of Assisi (1182-1226) spoke in other tongues according to some editions of the Catholic Encyclopedia. Clare of Montefalco (c. 1193-1253) spoke ecstatically in French, although her native tongue was Italian. The Waldenses (c. 1217) These followers of Peter Waldo believed in visions and prophecies. Both healing and speaking in tongues were manifested among these heavily persecuted Christians. Bridget of Sweden (1302-1373) Concerning this daughter of Birger, Prince of Sweden, Butler records, "To speak the language of angels was the happy privilege of Saint Bridget," Louis Bertrand (1526-1581), Catholic missionary to South America, spoke in tongues according to Butler: "The gifts of tongues, of prophecy, and of miracles, were favors conferred by heaven on this new apostle, as the authentic history of his life...assures us." Martin Luther (c 1540), Luther spoke in tongues: "Luther was easily the greatest evangelical man after the apostles, full of inner love to the Lord like John, hasty in deed like Peter, deep in thinking like Paul, cunning and powerful in speech like Elijah, uncompromising against God's enemies like David; prophet and evangelist, speaker-in-tongues and interpreter in one person, equipped with all the gifts of grace, a light and pillar of the church..."Whether this refers to the actual gift of tongues (I Cor 12) or the romance languages (i.e. Latin, French, etc.) is not certain. That Luther believed in miracles is certain. In 1541 when Myconius lay speechless in the final stages of consumption, Luther prayed and he was restored to health. He also prayed for Melanchthon who was near death and God healed him also. Melanchthon said: "I should have been a dead man, had I not been recalled from death itself by the coming of Luther." (Phillip Schaff - in "The History of the Christian Church" claims that speaking in tongues continued to appear from time to time during religious revivals amongst the Quakers, Huguenots and early Methodists. The Huguenots - During the time when these French Protestants were being cruelly persecuted by the Roman Catholic King Louis XIV during the late Seventeenth and early Eighteenth Centuries, there was a great move of the Holy Spirit amongst the so-called "Church in the Desert" accompanied by speaking in tongues, and other supernatural manifestations. )Early Quakers "We received often the pouring down of the Spirit upon us, and our hearts were made glad and our tongues loosed and our mouths opened, and we spake with new tongues as the Lord gave utterance, and as His Spirit led us." John Wesley. Wesley's journal record over 200 cases of Divine healing; including once when he prayed for his horse which had gone lame while he was on a preaching circuit, and the horse recovered.People in Wesley's meetings would be Spirit filled while he preached. "What so impressed and encouraged John Wesley and his followers, what so shocked, startled, and bewildered his contemporaries, is no mystery to the modern psychologist, to whom it is known as glossolalia, or "speaking with tongues"...After Paul laid his hands upon them "they spoke with tongues and prophesied," and such displays...had accompanied all the revivals of the faith and all the persecution of the martyrs. It is no wonder then, that John Wesley refused to listen to the skepticism of Charles (Wesley) or to the reproaches of his opponents, and continued to note down with interest...the extraordinary effects that he was able to produce in those who came to listen to him preach." Thomas Walsh (one of Wesley's foremost preachers) made this entry in his diary; "This morning the Lord gave me a language that I knew not of, raising my soul to Him in a wonderful manner." England (1830) There was a revival under Edward Irving where gifts of the Spirit were manifested. One member of the congregations writes: "The moment I am visited with the Spirit, and carried out to God in a tongue which I know not... I am more conscious than ever of the presence of God. He and He alone is in my soul. I am filled with some form of the mind of God, be it joy or grief, desire, love, pity, compassion, or indignation; and I am made to utter it in words which are full of power over my spirit, but not being accessible to my understanding, my devotion is not interrupted by association of suggestions from the visible or intellectual world: I feel myself, as it were, shut in with God in His pavilion, and hidden close from the invasions of the world, the devil, and the flesh." Charles G. Finney "I received a mighty baptism in the Holy Ghost...No words can express the wonderful love that was shed abroad in my heart. I wept aloud with joy and love; and I do not know but I should say, I literally bellowed out the unutterable gushings of my heart." D. L. Moody "One the following Sunday night, when I got to the rooms of the Y.M.C.A. I found the meetings on fire. The young men were speaking in tongues and prophesying. What on earth did it all mean? Only that Moody had been addressing them that afternoon." At a meeting in Los Angeles, Dr. R.A. Torrey told of a service in London where Moody took the pulpit to preach and instead broke into another language. He tried again, with similar results. The third time, after prayer and praise, he was able to preach his message. Charles H. Spurgeon A British preacher told how Spurgeon once asked his audience to forgive him that when he got especially happy in the Lord, "I break forth into a kind of gibberish which I do not myself understand." You may wish to quibble about some of the above, and at the end of the day, the scriptures I quoted detail the situation regardless what people today are saying about people now dead.
My friend, most of these are claims that cannot be accurately substantiated. I would check out the Ante-Nicene writers as possible, however, I don’t know about the rest. Anyone can claim to speak in tongues. In fact many do, that does not mean they are speaking the word of God.
TallMan---Those signs follow believers, not people that deliberately tempt The Lord by doing foolish things.Paul shook off a serpent when it bit him, he didn't deliberately pick it up.That passage says that "believers will speak in new tongues", , the question is, when will they?None had up till then!All the other signs were already encountered - see Luke 10:9, 19.The other signs require the presence of an evil spirit, a sickness or a poison in someone who is prepared to believe, but tongues only requires the availablility of the Holy SApirit to indwell people.That didn't happen until Pentecost which is who no believer spoke in tongues before then, but after all did when they received Him.Different signs follow at different times, like road signs going from one city to another.There are signs to show you are heading in the right direction, and a specific sign when you arrive.Jesus healed and cast out devils saying the Kingdom has come near to you, but tongues was taken as the sign when the Spirit became in people in the New Testament sense (born again / sons of God)- just like a baby cries when it is born (Gal.4:6)
Sorry friend, but if the signs of being bitten by vipers and drinking poison are no longer around you have no basis to claim the others are. Especially when the apostle said they would end. As for tongues it is not a sign that one has received the Holy Spirit. That was “never” its purpose. Its purpose was for a sign to “unbelievers” not believers. And not all receive the gift of tongues.1 Corinthians 12:12-31 ( KJV ) For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way.The questions are rhetorical, the answer is no. No, not all are apostles, not all are teachers, and No not all speak in tongues.
)I will edit my post
