Are the Caught Up Saints Part of the Resurrection?

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Davy

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In 1 Corinthians 15, Apostle Paul is describing with what kind of body the resurrection is.

1 Cor 15:35
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
KJV

And he said the resurrection is to a "spiritual body"...

1 Cor 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

KJV

As regarding Christ's Church, that resurrection body is only for the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thessalonians 4 that have already died in Christ, right?


So where does that leave Christ's saints that are still alive on earth at His 2nd coming? Paul called all this a mystery, and he said this to include the alive saints...

1 Cor 15:51-52
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV


Paul said we shall not all sleep, meaning we will not all be resurrected from the dead like the 'asleep' saints will be, yet we ALL shall be changed.

Changed to what? Just what... are the saints still alive changed to when Jesus comes?
 

Davy

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Here's a summary of what I'm trying to ask in my OP.

The saints still alive on earth on the day of Christ's 2nd coming per 1 Thess.4 are "caught up" to Jesus. They are not resurrected like the 'asleep' saints who had already died will be. So WHAT KIND OF BODY will those "caught up" be given, because Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:51 that we shall not all sleep, but we 'all' shall be 'changed'?
 

quietthinker

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Here's a summary of what I'm trying to ask in my OP.

The saints still alive on earth on the day of Christ's 2nd coming per 1 Thess.4 are "caught up" to Jesus. They are not resurrected like the 'asleep' saints who had already died will be. So WHAT KIND OF BODY will those "caught up" be given, because Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:51 that we shall not all sleep, but we 'all' shall be 'changed'?
1 These.4 and I Corinthian's 15 describe what you are asking about.....the dead are raised and changed....the living are changed....they are changed from mortal to immortal then they are caught up together to meet Jesus in the air.

What kind of body? ...an immortal one like Jesus's body
 
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Enoch111

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So where does that leave Christ's saints that are still alive on earth at His 2nd coming?
You continue to confuse the Resurrection/Rapture with the Second Coming of Christ. The Second Coming is for wrath and judgment upon the unbelieving and the ungodly, and all the saints and angels come WITH Christ at His Second Coming to witness the wrath of the Lamb. "Ten thousands" really means millions (Rev 5:11).

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard
speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:15-17)
 

Davy

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1 These.4 and I Corinthian's 15 describe what you are asking about.....the dead are raised and changed....the living are changed....they are changed from mortal to immortal then they are caught up together to meet Jesus in the air.

What kind of body? ...an immortal one like Jesus's body

Which is what KIND of body per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15?
 

Davy

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You continue to confuse the Resurrection/Rapture with the Second Coming of Christ. The Second Coming is for wrath and judgment upon the unbelieving and the ungodly, and all the saints and angels come WITH Christ at His Second Coming to witness the wrath of the Lamb. "Ten thousands" really means millions (Rev 5:11).

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15)

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:15-17)


I confuse nothing. It's men's doctrines of a Pre-tribulational rapture that has you confused away... from the Scriptures.

There is only ONE more coming by Christ Jesus, and it is AFTER the tribulation like He said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, which ARE chapters that apply to His Church, because that is who He was speaking to there, and His gathering of the saints stated there aligns exactly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Even in the Old Testament prophets, like Zechariah 9, there are only TWO advents by Christ mentioned, the 1st was His coming to offer Salvation, and the 2nd to subdue all nations and take reign over the earth. There is NO middle 'secret rapture' written, period.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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There is no 'first resurrection' in Thessalonians. It speaks of the living saved at Jesus' Coming who will not meet the Lord before the dead saints who will have to be raised first in order to in the last day or day of Jesus Coming, to TOGETHER WITH the living saints, in one crowd OF THE LORD'S HOSTS as "in a CLOUD", to "go up to meet the Lord". -- To meet "the LORD in the air"-- it's not the saints who are in the air. The saved "go up" from all over and across the world to enter the New Jerusalem that descended upon the earth (says Revelation). On their way they will see the carcasses of the wicked slain by the brightness of Jesus' coming, lying beside the way (Isaiah).

The Second Coming of Christ is in a 'cloud' descending, not ascending:

14: And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud One sat like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15: And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for Thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16: And He that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was REAPED. (The righteous, 'GRAIN' Raised, Christ having been the "First Sheaf".)

I believe the physical Coming Again of Jesus in a <<cloud in the air>> be it of water or angels. He will "COME IN THE FLESH".

It's wrong to compare the cloud the saved are ON EARTH "caught up in", with the cloud the Lord returns with "in the air"!

It is the Lord who comes in the air while the redeemed on earth are caught up in one huge cloud of resurrected people to meet Him at his Coming Again.

We pray, "Come Lord Jesus, come", not take us away!
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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I confuse nothing. It's men's doctrines of a Pre-tribulational rapture that has you confused away... from the Scriptures.

There is only ONE more coming by Christ Jesus, and it is AFTER the tribulation like He said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, which ARE chapters that apply to His Church, because that is who He was speaking to there, and His gathering of the saints stated there aligns exactly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4.

Even in the Old Testament prophets, like Zechariah 9, there are only TWO advents by Christ mentioned, the 1st was His coming to offer Salvation, and the 2nd to subdue all nations and take reign over the earth. There is NO middle 'secret rapture' written, period.

Amen
 

Enoch111

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Even in the Old Testament prophets, like Zechariah 9, there are only TWO advents by Christ mentioned...
Since Paul already told you that the Rapture is a mystery which he is revealing, you have proved nothing. It is just like the mystery of the Church, which was not revealed to the OT prophets.

The coming of Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture is NOT an advent at all. Read, study, and learn, instead of going round in round in the same rut. It is momentary as is perfectly clear from Scripture.
 

Davy

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Since Paul already told you that the Rapture is a mystery which he is revealing, you have proved nothing. It is just like the mystery of the Church, which was not revealed to the OT prophets.

The coming of Christ at the Resurrection/Rapture is NOT an advent at all. Read, study, and learn, instead of going round in round in the same rut. It is momentary as is perfectly clear from Scripture.

So Daniel 12:1-2 has nothing to do with the gathering of the Church?

Dan 12:1-2
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

KJV

That event aligns with the resurrection of the asleep saints which Paul taught happens on the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church per 1 Thess.4. Note the timing given above referring to the tribulation and the saints delivered, and then those who sleep being awakened, in that order. That aligns with the timing our Lord Jesus Himself taught in His Olivet discourse for His coming and gathering of His Church (Matthew 24; Mark 13).

The resurrection happens when Jesus comes to get His Church, which does NOT happen before nor during the great tribulation.
 

Davy

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The KIND of body everyone... will have when our Lord Jesus returns will be a body of "incorruption" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15. That is not just referring to our 'spirit' part only. It is about our outward likeness image. A body is what our soul/spirit lives in. Apostle Paul showed this about our flesh body in 2 Corinthians 5, where he called our flesh body an "earthy house", but our other body is one that is not made with hands, but is eternal in the heavens.

2 Cor 5:1-2
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
KJV


What did he mean by, "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven"?

In what is groaning? Our spirit with soul inside our present "earthly house" groans, seeking to be released from this flesh of death.

We have (present tense) another body from God. In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul called it a "spiritual body". He said there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body, meant in the present tense, like right now. It means inside our flesh body we have another body of a different type, one that is made up of spirit.