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BreadOfLife
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I haven't "misrepresented" anything you've claimed about the Catholic view on salvation.
And the "You guys" I'm referring to is the anti-Catholic chorus that includes you and several others here on this thread who have completely disregarded everything I've stated about the Catholic position only to hold onto you r moronic presuppositions about what Catholics "believe".
As for the false 16th century Protestant invention of "Eternal Security" - it is anti-Biblical as I have amply shown and not ONE of you has bothered to refute the Scriptural evidence (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)
ALL of you have simply attacked me personally instead of addressing the evidence - which does NOT bolster your case . . .
BreadOfLife
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The Catholic Church rejects Pelagianism is ALL its forms - "semi" or otherwise.
So, your point is moot - as well as dishonest . . .
BreadOfLife
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Thanks for ignoring what I said - yet again.
It's blindingly-clear that either you didn't read what I wrote - or you're just a dishonest person.
Take your pick . . .
BreadOfLife
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All of the verses that speak of losing one's salvation are intended to produce the fear of the LORD in a man's heart so that he will not depart from the Lord (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), Psalms 19:9).
Jer 32:38, And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
Jer 32:39, And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
Jer 32:40, And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Psa 19:9, The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
That eternal security for the one who has a heart faith unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14) is a reality that can be seen if you will read and understand John 5:24, John 6:47, and John 10:27-30.
No one can snatch the believer out of God's hand; and he shall never perish, and he has eternal life (John 10:27-30).
He has passed from death into everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation (John 5:24).
He has everlasting life (John 6:47).
If anyone has the fear of the LORD, he will never walk away (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv), Psalms 19:9).
This is an airtight case for eternal security.
Verses that teach that a man can lose his salvation are intended to produce the fear of the LORD so that a man will fear well enough to walk within the boundaries of salvation.
As long as he walks within those boundaries, his salvation is unshakable. And the fear of the LORD will keep him walking within those boundaries.
It seems to me that you are ignoring what I am saying...because I addressed your statements.
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Now I know that I have not attacked you personally here...so I think that you are exaggerating.
While you have attacked me personally...
BreadOfLife
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My entire point about the works we do as an essential part of our faith are not really “ours” to begin with – so the whole argument about “works salvation” is completely moot. I explained that they were prepared FOR us BY God (Eph. 2:10).
Finally – you claimed that the verses of Scripture that you presented are an “airtight” case for Eternal Security. However – in the same breath, you make the CATHOLIC case against it by saying that a person’s salvation is secure – “as long as he walks within the boundaries” sent by God.
That’s PRECISELY what we’ve been saying for 2000 years.
Without our cooperation, with God’s grace - we cannot HOPE to be saved.
BreadOfLife
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Okay, to be fair – whereas, you and YOU alone didn’t attack me personally, you greatly distorted my position and completely ignored other things I said.
And I didn’t attack YOU either.
I said that either you are ignoring what I have said OR you are being dishonest.
Except I wasn't ignoring you (which was also evident)....
So you were claiming that I was being dishonest.
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I'm certainly not one to ignore the biblical statements that seem to be against eternal security.
But I'm also not going to ignore the biblical statements that are for the doctrine, either.
So, a balance must be reached in the realm of our understanding with sola scriptura in mind.
And I have never said that the Catholics are wrong on every issue.
If they can support their position with scripture, and also if there is no scripture that refutes their position, then they would definitely be right on whatever issue is being discussed.
Now in saying that I have made an airtight case for eternal security, I am keeping in mind that a person who is truly born again is sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthianss 5:5). This indwelling of the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption produces the fear of the LORD in the Christian's heart; which endures for ever (Psalms 19:9). The believer will not walk away from Jesus because of this fear (Jeremiah 32:38-40 (kjv)).
If someone has a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow, faith, then they do not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit and do not have this fear of the LORD. Because they can fall away (Luke 8:13).
But if someone has a heart faith that is unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) and enduring to the end (Matthew 10:22, Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 3:14), their faith is unto everlasting life (John 6:47); which is life that can never come to an end.
One type of faith will result in falling away when tested (Luke 8:13); the other type of faith will stand the test (John 6:47).
If you can determine that you have the type of faith that will stand the test, then you can have absolute assurance that you will never lose your salvation; as long as it is accompanied by a fear of losing it if you were to cross certain boundaries.
It is the nature of your faith that keeps you. And in this, it is not that you are kept by staying within the boundaries; but that you are kept by a faith that fears going outside of them.
There is even fear in faith (Hebrews 11:7).
Jeremiah 32:38-40 shows us the balance between verses that say you can lose your salvation and verses that tell us plainly that such a thing is impossible.
Fact is, it is impossible for those with a certain kind of faith.
I dont dislike Catholics. And i note that if i talk about a Catholic lie that is related to their Doctrine, the Catholics feel that this is "Hating Catholics".
So, thats a sensitivity issue that is related to feeling persecuted.
This happens to you because you identify yourself MORE as a Catholic then you do as a Christian.
Let me prove it to you., and many here have this same issue, and you not Catholic.
= If you met me on the street and didnt know who i was and i stopped you and asked you...>"are you SAVED". And i tried to hand you a TRACT, ... You would take it to be polite, and then you would tell me....>"yes, im a Catholic".
But you see, i didnt ask you if you were a Catholic, or a charismatic, or a baptist, or a methodist..etc, etc, etc..... i asked you if you were SAVED.
So, the correct answer is. 1. ) Yes. or 2.) Im a Christian.
But your initial response is your FAITH.
You faith is all about being a Catholic.
Think about that..
The fact is, i have high admiration for many believers who were qualified by the CC to be "Saints".
If you read my "Saints" Thread, you'll note my admiration for many of them.
Also, the CC position on salvation is that the Water is necessary.
In God's theology, the BLOOD is necessary.
Those are NOT the same.
BreadOfLife
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That's very presumptuous of you to to think you would "know" my response to the question, "Are you saved" - and you're dead wrong, by the way.
My response would be as it ALWAYS is when I'm asked this question: I believe as the Bible says: I WAS saved when I came to Christ (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), I am BEING saved as I cooperate with Go'd grace (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14) - and I WILL BE saved at the end if I continue to cooperate with God's grace (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
That's the Catholic answer.
As for my being a Catholic - that is what I AM, not simply the name of my Church.I am a Catholic Christian.
It very different from saying that I am a Protestant Christian - which is what YOU are - so I'm not really sure I get your point there.
Finally - as to your being anti-Catholic - it is very clear that you are. This isn't a "persecution complex" on my part.
An snti-Catholic is NOT a person who simply "believes differently" from a Catholic. It is a person who LIES about what the Catholic Church teaches - even AFTER it has been explained to them that they are mistaken.
Anybody reading my dialogue with many of you on this thread can see plainly that so far - this thread has been a testament to anti-Catholicism
BreadOfLife
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Not at ALL - go back and READ what I said.
Looks like you're ignoring what I wrote again . . .
BreadOfLife
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Nonsense.
Scripture does NOT teach that there are "different" types of born again believers. It teaches that ALL born again believers can fall away back to their former condition by their OWN doing (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)
.
You claim to have an "airtight" Scriptural case for Eternal security - but I shot well over a dozen Scriptural holes through that "airtight" case . . .
No, you haven't. For you to do that, you would have to actually quote the verses that you think so what you think they do so that they can be subjected to scrutiny; rather than just referencing them. The least you can do is reference them in such a manner that we might be able to scroll the mouse over them and see what they say more easily. You do know that if you type out the entire name of the book w/ the reference, the program will put that scripture in blue and we will be able to scroll the mouse over it and read the verse?
And the Bible does indeed teach that there are different types of faith...otherwise there is a contradiction between John 6:47 and Luke 8:13.
I believe that I have also answered all of the verses that you have mentioned in one fell swoop, here:
post #67 (Dead faith.)
and here:
post #72 (Dead faith.)
BreadOfLife
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As for John 6:47, it says that he who "believes" has eternal life. Biblical belief is NOT simple intellectual assent - but surrender to God's will.
It includes:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)
As for Luke 8:13 - NOT every example is about BORN AGAIN believers.
As for posting the verses that refute Eternal Security - here are some of the ones I listed:
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.
1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.
Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.
Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
Luke 8:13 is clearly about someone who has faith.
I agree that the one whose faith is nominal, lukewarm, or shallow is very likely not even born again.
Faith has to do with surrender; and works result out of that surrender. However, scripture is clear that works do not save us. Works are nearly always produced out of a living and saving faith but the scripture clearly shows that they do not have any salvation value. They are gold, silver, precious gems, wood, hay, stubble, on the day of judgment; and will result in reward after having been touched by fire, if they remain. But if someone has nothing to show for their faith in the way of works, they will still be saved, yet so as by fire (1 Corinthians 3:11-15). Therefore the works that we do as believers, if they stand the test, have value in that they will mean reward for the believer. But salvation is in the foundation being laid; which is faith alone in Jesus Christ.
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