Shroud of Turin: Absolute proof the man seen in it is Jesus Christ

Tong2020 · Jul 13, 2020

brian100 said:
If Tong won't believe then God will do something to him to make him believe. I believe so much that i know God can intercede into his life.. but he may not like God's answer for him. We can only pray he will come around to see the pictures as truth.

In real life I have seen too many times what God does to people who don't believe in Mary.

What I believe regarding the shroud does not in any way affect my salvation brian100. For my salvation is in no way because of a shroud nor was it because of the Blessed Mary, but is because of Jesus Christ. In fact, it had not affected the salvation of the many Christians who knew not of the shroud of Turin.

Tong
R0750

Bobby Jo · Jul 13, 2020

Tong2020 said:
... should we not start with the belief that it is not until proven otherwise?

NO! We should start with the ARTIFACT until proven otherwise, just we should presume that people are HONEST until proven otherwise. And so a simple "proof" is technology which wasn't available at the origination and is NOW available to test the veracity -- that being LASER holography.

But you're not interested in the veracity, you simply refuse the TRUTH of a matter. And I'd propose that if we delved into other matters, such as the Prophetic Psalms, you'd argue against THOSE facts too.

Don't be a SCOFFER.
Bobby Jo

Tong2020 · Jul 13, 2020

brian100 said:
John 18

Then Pilate said to him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice.”
38Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

Truth is the Shroud.

The seeing part.

WHAT?

Tong
R0751

GodsGrace · Jul 13, 2020

Tong2020 said:
I think you entirely missed the point. Anyone who have an erroneous belief about the gospel must repent, be it because of the shroud or something else. When one makes out of anything, like of the shroud, an erroneous teaching or belief, so that it changes, adds or subtracts to the gospel that the apostles preached, he would be guilty of preaching a different gospel. And Paul said "let him be accursed". So, must he repent or not?

You said "First, if a person is reading the gospels,. he has ALREADY repented." Not necessarily Ma'am. There are many unbelievers who reads the gospel for various reasons. You know this, and is somehow implied in your statement, "It's also possible that an unsaved person is reading the bible to find out about God,...."

You said, "AND....if I have a doctrine wrong, I'm lost?" Never said that nor is saying that.

OSAS have nothing to do with the shroud of Turin, nor does baptism with water. So, I would be refraining to address them here, so as not to have multiple topics discussed under this thread and stick to the topic, which is about the shroud.

Tong
R0747

I did not misunderstand you Tong.
You have just repeated your first reply to me.
You say above that if someone believes in the Shroud they are preaching a different gospel.
Preaching a different gospel is, for instance, preaching gnosticism.

The O.P. is not preaching a different gospel, but has beliefs that may not be in line with mainline Christianity. God will not hold him responsible for what is not understood.

He loves God and Jesus' mother and surely God is merciful to those that love Him.
I mentioned OSAS and baptism as examples. I h ave no intention of derailing this thread.

No one is accursed who loves God.

GodsGrace · Jul 13, 2020

Tong2020 said:
The matter about Mars is not analogous. The shroud is a real shroud as, no doubt. But that is not the issue. Rather, the issue is if the shroud was the actual grave clothes of Jesus Christ. Now, my questions are very relevant. In fact, they are one of the questions that must first be asked because scriptures talks about them.

I find it difficult to discuss with persons that don't understand my posts.
I said about Mars that just because we don't know EVERYTHING about it does not mean it doesn't exist.....for the Shroud the statement would be: Just because we don't know every answer about the Shroud does not mean it's not real.

It's just proof that everyone involved is trying to be very careful.

John 19:39 And Nicodemus, who at first came to Jesus by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. 40 Then they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in strips of linen with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury.

As I said Tong...common sense tells us that women could not move 100 pounds of myrrh and aloe.

I don't usually use commentaries, but it's necessary in this case:

About an hundred pound weight.—Comp. Notes on John 12:3 et seq. The quantity is clearly much more than could have been placed in the linen which surrounded the body; but the offering was one of love, and part of it may have been placed in the sepulchre. We read of the burial of Asa, that they “laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds of spices prepared by the apothecaries’ art” (2Chronicles 16:14).

sourece: John 19:39 Commentaries: Nicodemus, who had first come to Him by night, also came, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds weight.

With that kind of reasoning, we should not think that the resurrection would cause one not to worry too much about grave cloths.

Here's the thing about that we read in scriptures concerning the shroud. Notice what we have in John 20: 5-7, speaking of a head or face cloth, the "soudarion" and linen cloths or wrappings, the "othonion". Notice, we have a "soudarion" in the singular as to mean 1 piece. I think in other videos they somehow came up with an explanation to that. But here is where the issue lies, in the "othonion". In John 20: 5-7, the "othonion" is in the plural as to mean at least two pieces, which we also see in John 19:40 to be in the plural. And yet, the shroud of Turin, the supposed "othonion", is just 1 piece. What can you say about that?

Besides the custom of wrapping at that time, could be known in scriptures, as in the wrapping of the dead Lazarus, which used a head cloth and of linen strips. What can you say about that?

Tong
R0749

What I c an say is that I'm not a spokesperson for the Shroud and am not privy to information others don't have.

I'll just say this....
I don't have a solid opinion of the Shroud. It is not mentioned in the gospel of John, or by the others, and this seems important to me. However, we can not know everything that happened at that time. Finding an empty tomb was enough to deal with IMO.

What I know for sure is that the image on the Shroud CANNOT be duplicated.
Until it can, I have to entertain the idea that it might be real.
But even if it DID turn out to be real and could be proven conclusively, I doubt it would bring many new believers to Christianity --- maybe some.

I also have the idea that when God can be PROVEN,,,we might be at the end of this life.
What would be left? Nothing!

There is so much information about the Shroud,,,including the fact that it can be seen in 3D,,,that it kind of makes your questions be of no importance. They just don't matter.

brian100 · Jul 13, 2020

Mary is blessed over all woman. Full of grace means sinless.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Luke1:28
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

The Bible and the Shroud proves Jesus is with Mary
The Lord is with Mary

Tong2020 · Jul 13, 2020

Bobby Jo said:
NO! We should start with the ARTIFACT until proven otherwise, just we should presume that people are HONEST until proven otherwise. And so a simple "proof" is technology which wasn't available at the origination and is NOW available to test the veracity -- that being LASER holography.

But you're not interested in the veracity, you simply refuse the TRUTH of a matter. And I'd propose that if we delved into other matters, such as the Prophetic Psalms, you'd argue against THOSE facts too.

Don't be a SCOFFER.
Bobby Jo

No need for such language Bobby. Limit your tongue to the subject and refrain from ad hominem. It's unbecoming of a Christian, I have to say.

You said "We should start with the ARTIFACT until proven otherwise, just we should presume that people are HONEST until proven otherwise." I say, we should start with scriptures, that is, start with the truth. There is no better way than to start with the truth when one claims anything about things that relates to God.

So, starting with the truth, here's the thing about that we read in scriptures concerning the grave cloths. Notice what we have in John 20: 5-7, speaking of a head or face cloth, the "soudarion" and linen cloths or wrappings, the "othonion". Notice, we have a "soudarion" in the singular as to mean 1 piece. I think in other videos they somehow came up with an explanation to that. But here is where the issue lies, in the "othonion". In John 20: 5-7, the "othonion" is in the plural as to mean at least two pieces, which we also see in John 19:40 to be in the plural. And yet, the shroud of Turin, the supposed "othonion", is just 1 piece. What can you say about that?

Besides the custom of wrapping at that time, could be known in scriptures, as in the wrapping of the dead Lazarus, which used a head cloth and of linen strips. What can you say about that?

Tong
R0752

brian100 · Jul 13, 2020

Tong, the Lord is with Mary (Luke1:28 Douay) .. so you are wrong man about her being dead.
You are wrong she was a sinner.. she was 'full of grace'

The shroud proves she has an Immaculate Heart! And was Blessed above all woman! And the Lord is with her! I see her on the Shroud!

Protestants stick a sword thru her heart!

I know you are asking whats her Immaculate Heart doing on the Shroud. Catholics learned all this from God! We didn't just make stuff up- about Mary! Shroud skeptics know nobody but God put that on the Shroud in the fire in 1500.

The Catholic God is God!

Tong2020 · Jul 13, 2020

GodsGrace said:
I did not misunderstand you Tong.
You have just repeated your first reply to me.
You say above that if someone believes in the Shroud they are preaching a different gospel.
Preaching a different gospel is, for instance, preaching gnosticism.

The O.P. is not preaching a different gospel, but has beliefs that may not be in line with mainline Christianity. God will not hold him responsible for what is not understood.

He loves God and Jesus' mother and surely God is merciful to those that love Him.
I mentioned OSAS and baptism as examples. I h ave no intention of derailing this thread.

No one is accursed who loves God.

What I said: "Anyone who have an erroneous belief about the gospel must repent, be it because of the shroud or something else."

Your understanding: "You say above that if someone believes in the Shroud they are preaching a different gospel."

Did you understand? I don't think so. But if you think you did, so be it then.

You said "The O.P. is not preaching a different gospel, but has beliefs that may not be in line with mainline Christianity." The gospel is about Jesus Christ and not about anyone else, right? That there is salvation in no other, only in Jesus Christ. Now, what can you say in a gospel that says Jesus is the Savior and so is Mary, on the basis of the shroud of Turin, saying that the shroud says that to him? Is he preaching a different gospel other than the gospel that apostles preached or not?

Tong
R0753

brian100 · Jul 13, 2020

Look Tong.. The Lord is with Thee (Mary) Not dead!, Full of Grace is without sin, and Blessed above all women! (No Woman is higher than Mary)
Luke1:28 (Douay)

I've destroyed all your Pastor provided theories on Mary with the bible and with the Shroud.

Jesus (The Lord) is with Mary!

Bobby Jo · Jul 13, 2020

Tong2020 said:
... starting with the truth ...

To "start with truth", you have to first understand TRUTH. And so I cited a TRUTH that you don't know, -- the Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms --, as a validation that you can't discern TRUTH.

So how about if we open a Topic or a Conversation to see if you can receive "revelation" or whether as my favorite aunt used to tease: My Mind's Made Up. Don't Confuse Me With The Facts. -- And she was only teasing, but you appear to be serious.

Don't ya love pudding, -- because the "PROOF" is ALWAYS in the pudding.
Bobby Jo

brian100 · Jul 13, 2020

Knowledge is know how...

When you don't have knowledge you say dumb things to explain it 'like the devil made the shroud.' Or they just dismiss it as 'fake'. Saying its fake implies they have no know how. A bunch said the Shroud is fake pictures.(No faith in Jesus?) Then many said its all lies!! That's all devil can say about it.

I have heard a few people say that.

I' m the only one who stick to Science and the Bible?

For those images to get on both sides of the Shroud there had to be an Event Horizon in the Tomb.

35 min Isabel Piczek

Tong2020 · Jul 13, 2020

GodsGrace said:
I find it difficult to discuss with persons that don't understand my posts.
I said about Mars that just because we don't know EVERYTHING about it does not mean it doesn't exist.....for the Shroud the statement would be: Just because we don't know every answer about the Shroud does not mean it's not real.

Same here and for everybody I guess. Perhaps clarifications are in order then. What do you mean that the shroud is real? If I were to go with your line of thought there about Mars, that just because we don't know EVERYTHING about it does not mean it doesn't exist, for the shroud then it would be: Just because we don't know EVERYTHING about the Shroud does not mean it doesn't exist. And that's why I said "The shroud is a real shroud, no doubt.", which is the same as saying that just because we don't know EVERYTHING about the Shroud does not mean it doesn't exist.

GodsGrace said:
As I said Tong...common sense tells us that women could not move 100 pounds of myrrh and aloe.

If you have read John 19:39, nothing said there about women moving the myrrh and aloes. Please read again. The truth said is Nicodemus brought about 100 pounds of myrrh and aloes. How he brought them, it does not say. Are you suggesting that there is something wrong in this passage?

GodsGrace said:
What I can say is that I'm not a spokesperson for the Shroud and am not privy to information others don't have.

I'll just say this....
I don't have a solid opinion of the Shroud. It is not mentioned in the gospel of John, or by the others, and this seems important to me. However, we can not know everything that happened at that time. Finding an empty tomb was enough to deal with IMO.

The testimony of God's words are more than sufficient, for my faith is in God and to no other.

GodsGrace said:
What I know for sure is that the image on the Shroud CANNOT be duplicated.

And that is perhaps because you have trust in the men and women who have done work on the shroud, and believe their words. Else you will not say that. And perhaps because what they say makes sense to you at least, that you say you know for sure. That is not to say that there is something wrong in that.

GodsGrace said:
Until it can, I have to entertain the idea that it might be real.
But even if it DID turn out to be real and could be proven conclusively, I doubt it would bring many new believers to Christianity --- maybe some.

Maybe.

GodsGrace said:
I also have the idea that when God can be PROVEN,,,we might be at the end of this life.
What would be left? Nothing!

I don't quite get what you mean to say here.

GodsGrace said:
There is so much information about the Shroud,,,including the fact that it can be seen in 3D,,,that it kind of makes your questions be of no importance. They just don't matter.

I disagree. I am asking simple questions concerning the shroud. Questions that were based on scriptures, not science. How can they be of no importance? Are you suggesting that my questions are not valid? If the 1 piece shroud of Turin then would be the truth, that would make the scriptures err in speaking of a plural number of cloths used in the wrapping of the dead body of Jesus Christ. That is very much relevant and important, don't you agree? Well, if you don't, or that it just don't matter to you for whatever reason, so be it with you then.

Tong
R0754

GodsGrace · Jul 13, 2020

Tong2020 said:
What I said: "Anyone who have an erroneous belief about the gospel must repent, be it because of the shroud or something else."

Your understanding: "You say above that if someone believes in the Shroud they are preaching a different gospel."

Did you understand? I don't think so. But if you think you did, so be it then.

You said "The O.P. is not preaching a different gospel, but has beliefs that may not be in line with mainline Christianity." The gospel is about Jesus Christ and not about anyone else, right? That there is salvation in no other, only in Jesus Christ. Now, what can you say in a gospel that says Jesus is the Savior and so is Mary, on the basis of the shroud of Turin, saying that the shroud says that to him? Is he preaching a different gospel other than the gospel that apostles preached or not?

Tong
R0753

Here, I'll make it really easy:

INCORRECT DOCTRINE DOES NOT DAMN A PERSON TO HELL.
BELIEVING IN JESUS SAVES A PERSON'S SOUL.

brian100 · Jul 13, 2020

The Shroud is the only real proof there was ever a Jesus and a Mary.

Pilate said what is Truth? You can't hear truth.

Its seeing and hearing.

GodsGrace · Jul 13, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Same here and for everybody I guess. Perhaps clarifications are in order then. What do you mean that the shroud is real? If I were to go with your line of thought there about Mars, that just because we don't know EVERYTHING about it does not mean it doesn't exist, for the shroud then it would be: Just because we don't know EVERYTHING about the Shroud does not mean it doesn't exist. And that's why I said "The shroud is a real shroud, no doubt.", which is the same as saying that just because we don't know EVERYTHING about the Shroud does not mean it doesn't exist.

If you have read John 19:39, nothing said there about women moving the myrrh and aloes. Please read again. The truth said is Nicodemus brought about 100 pounds of myrrh and aloes. How he brought them, it does not say. Are you suggesting that there is something wrong in this passage?

The testimony of God's words are more than sufficient, for my faith is in God and to no other.

And that is perhaps because you have trust in the men and women who have done work on the shroud, and believe their words. Else you will not say that. And perhaps because what they say makes sense to you at least, that you say you know for sure. That is not to say that there is something wrong in that.

Maybe.

I don't quite get what you mean to say here.

I disagree. I am asking simple questions concerning the shroud. Questions that were based on scriptures, not science. How can they be of no importance? Are you suggesting that my questions are not valid? If the 1 piece shroud of Turin then would be the truth, that would make the scriptures err in speaking of a plural number of cloths used in the wrapping of the dead body of Jesus Christ. That is very much relevant and important, don't you agree? Well, if you don't, or that it just don't matter to you for whatever reason, so be it with you then.

Tong
R0754

1. I meant that the Shroud is AUTHENTIC, NOT that it doesn't exist.
OF COURSE it exists !

2. I don't know if there's something wrong in the passage. If you think 100 pounds of myrrh and tree bark was moved by some women, then so be it. I wasn't there so I don't know....
It's John's words being translated MANY TIMES over....has nothing to do with salvation.

3. I NEVER said I know the Shroud is authentic FOR SURE. I've always said we cannot know for sure either way. Time will tell. However, there is no reason to be so insistent that it is not authentic...we cannot really know.

4. Regarding your questions...there are so many important matters that are confirmed that it makes your questions pretty useless...this is not to insult you...very important questions have been investigated...100 pounds of myrrh is not going to be investigated...this is what I mean.

The Shroud is a negative.
Negatives were not known in the middle ages, let alone Jesus' time.
It's in 3D. Nuff said.
It cannot be reproduced.

This is really all I need to know to keep an open mind, but there's so much more.

Tong2020 · Jul 13, 2020

GodsGrace said:
Here, I'll make it really easy:

INCORRECT DOCTRINE DOES NOT DAMN A PERSON TO HELL.
BELIEVING IN JESUS SAVES A PERSON'S SOUL.

I won't belabor on that anymore than I already have GGrace. You can have the last word on that.

Tong
R0755

brian100 · Jul 13, 2020

Tong has nothing to do here.

Tong2020 · Jul 13, 2020

brian100 said:
The Shroud is the only real proof there was ever a Jesus and a Mary.

Pilate said what is Truth? You can't hear truth.

Its seeing and hearing.

I don't know about you, but here's what the word of God says:

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

God has spoken. Now what God had spoken is the truth. Can you hear truth or can you see truth?

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.

In case you don't know yet who the Prophet Moses is referring to, He is Jesus Christ. I suppose you at least believe that all that Jesus said is truth. Now, can you hear truth or can you see truth, that the passage says "Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you." ?

Tong
R0756

brian100 · Jul 13, 2020

Tong you are beaten by the Shroud..and what's there.

Shroud of Turin: Absolute proof the man seen in it is Jesus Christ

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