Spotting the Heretic

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Waiting on him

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Go here :

What is "Amazing Grace"?
[/QUOTE

Galatians 2:20-21 KJV
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 

Nancy

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God and "us"?
What is the "us" part you are trying to explain that you believer is your part in God's Salvation??


will talk to you later....


-B

No, I take no part other than working out my salvation as He works it inside. I am speaking about the scripture i posted along with the post.

9 "For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building."
1 Corinthians 3:9

By His grace, all who have trusted Him for salvation have automatically been placed in this position as fellow-laborers with Him. We ARE the building stones and we are to build upon the foundation He set for us.
:)

 

Davy

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Praise the Lord, @Davy.

The rest of Hebrews 6 teaches us that we have Jesus as an anchor of the soul; so that if we cleave unto Him, we cannot lose what He has given unto us. It is confirmed by two immutable things: 1) It is impossible for God to lie; and, 2) He confirmed it by an oath.

No, the rest of Hebrews 6 does NOT teach that the believer who turns away from Christ can ever come back. What you just said is ADDING to the Scripture.

As a matter of fact, Apostle Paul made it clear that our hope in Christ is ONLY for those who 'endure' to the end, and not for those who turn away from Christ...

Heb 6:11-15
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:


12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater, He sware by Himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

KJV

What you should do is leave... that 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men you've been taught, and come to the simplicity and reality of God's written Word. The Pre-tribulationalists think God's Word speaks of a pre-trib rapture too, but it does not, yet those who believe that lie are so sure of it.
 

Behold

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You didn't really answer my question. You claim to be "saved", so YOU must know the point at which, as you say, "God sees the Faith you have in your HEART, where you have truly Trusted in CHRIST". So, when did that happen, exactly?
I mean, when God saw the faith in your heart and "instantly" saved you, did he send you a certificate of salvation, or something? If not, how do you know you're eternally saved - you could be just imagining things and deluding yourself (you could be mentally ill, for all I know). And how do you know you have enough faith to be saved?
Can you prove to me that God has written your name in the Book of Life for all eternity? Of course not ... all you've got is your opinion and your illogical interpretation of scripture.

Am i here to answer foolish questions?

But i will say this.. God knows me, because i belong to Him.
Only the born again will understand this reality.
 

Behold

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No, I take no part other than working out my salvation as He works it inside. I am speaking about the scripture i posted along with the post.

9 "For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building."
1 Corinthians 3:9

By His grace, all who have trusted Him for salvation have automatically been placed in this position as fellow-laborers with Him. We ARE the building stones and we are to build upon the foundation He set for us.
:)

What if you stopped?
You are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and God lives in you.
If tomorrow you stopped your effort to abide, what happens to your Blood Atonement?
 

Nancy

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:)

What if you stopped?
You are the Temple of the Holy Spirit, and God lives in you.
If tomorrow you stopped your effort to abide, what happens to your Blood Atonement?

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I bet these believed they were "saved" forever.

2 Peter 2:20-22
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Doesn't sound saved forever to me.


Ezekiel 18:24-26
"But when a RIGHTEOUS person TURNS AWAY FROM his righteousness AND DOES INJUSTICE and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty AND THE SIN HE HAS COMMITTED, FOR THEM he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? WHEN A RIGHTEOUS PERSON TURNS AWAY from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die."

1 John 3:6-9
"No one who ABIDES in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

There's that word "abide you do not seem to think is important...

2 Timothy 2:11-12
"The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; IF WE ENDURE, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"

There IS no other way BUT to always abide IN HIM if we are true to our walk.

James 5:19-20
"MY BROTHERS, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering WILL SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH and will cover a multitude of sins."

James is speaking to born again Christians (My brothers) so, how can he then say a wanderer is in danger of losing his soul from death?

Colossians 1:21-23
"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."

There ARE allot of "if's" in His Word...

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." ¯\(°_o)/¯

There are so many more verses about "abiding in Him" but...won't post them all!
I once believed OSAS and to an extent, I still do...to an extent and that is that we are to ALWAYS abide in Him
God Bless,
BTW-do you ever listen to Andrew Farley?
 
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justbyfaith

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No, the rest of Hebrews 6 does NOT teach that the believer who turns away from Christ can ever come back. What you just said is ADDING to the Scripture.

As a matter of fact, Apostle Paul made it clear that our hope in Christ is ONLY for those who 'endure' to the end, and not for those who turn away from Christ...

Heb 6:11-15
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:


12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no greater, He sware by Himself,

14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

KJV

What you should do is leave... that 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men you've been taught, and come to the simplicity and reality of God's written Word. The Pre-tribulationalists think God's Word speaks of a pre-trib rapture too, but it does not, yet those who believe that lie are so sure of it.

I didn't say in that post that the believer who turns away from Christ can ever come back. I said that if anyone clings to Christ, they cannot lose their salvation.

But I will say this: if anyone thinks that they have lost their salvation, John 6:37 would tell you that if you come to Christ, casting yourself upon His mercy, He will by no means cast you out.

Psalms 31:22 tells us that thinking you have fallen away and can never come back may be something that you think in haste. But if you make your supplication unto Him, He will hear you.

Job 14:7-11 shows us that we, as trees of righteousness, may even be cut off at the stump; but that at the first scent of water there can be regeneration and renewal.

Then there is the parable of the prodigal son. It is readily apparent that he was dead and lost; and yet he did not cease to be the son of his father; and when he returned he was accepted with open arms.

I could go on and on.

In Acts of the Apostles 27, there is a story where the people in the boat lost all hope of being saved; but only a few verses later they were saved from the power of the storm

In Luke 1:37 and a few other verses, it declares that with the Lord nothing shall be impossible.

In Acts of the Apostles 20:6-12, a boy named Eutychus falls from the third story of the building ans is taken up dead; but Paul raises him from the dead by the power of the Holy Ghost.

And this is representative of the fact that Romans 8 is the third story of the building, Romans 7 is the first story, and unbelief is the first story. A person who falls from the third storyto the second story has not fallen away. But even if someone falls from the third story to the first and dies, scripture testifies to the power of spiritual resurrection by showing forth a physical one.
.
.
.
As for pre-tribulation rapture, Revelation 3:10 teaches it pretty clearly impaho.
 

Behold

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I once believed OSAS and to an extent, I still do...to an extent and that is that we are to ALWAYS abide in Him
God Bless,
BTW-do you ever listen to Andrew Farley?



I'm not familiar with Andrew Farley.

Also..

OSAS is not always the same definition.
A heretic will teach it like this.....>"that is saying you can live like the devil now that you have a license to sin".
And that would be the wrong understanding of OSAS.

OSAS, just means that what saved you, keeps you saved.
Jesus who saved you, keeps you saved.
The blood of Jesus that saved, you, keeps you saved.
=OSAS


Are you teaching that by "abiding in him", you keep yourself saved by YOU doing that?.... and if you dont "abide", you are going to go to hell?

Are you are trying to say that if a person walks away from doing Christian works, they were not really saved to begin with...
As that would be different then being a Backslider, as this person is born again, but not walking in discipleship.





 
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Behold

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But I will say this: if anyone thinks that they have lost their salvation, John 6:37 would tell you that if you come to Christ, casting yourself upon His mercy, He will by no means cast you out.
.



God does not get rid of His blood bought redeemed, and you can't "walk away" from being Born.

If a believer becomes a backslider, they are still born again.
Most eventually return to their discipleship, others, do not.
In both case, they are still the "sons of God", and both have God in them.
God does not leave you, if you behave badly, in the same way that He didnt save you because you were behaving "good".
God accepts you, and keeps you for the exact same REASON.
= THE Blood of Jesus" that was applied to all your sin and to you, once you gave God your Faith.
Faith is counted as Righteousness, not abiding, or enduring, or any other self effort.
 
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marks

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There are so many more verses about "abiding in Him" but...won't post them all!
I once believed OSAS and to an extent, I still do...to an extent and that is that we are to ALWAYS abide in Him

Hi Nancy,

I spent a few years on this some time back. I would routinely find books, websites, anything, where people would make their arguments that being reborn from God was not necessarily forever, that is, that you could somehow lose salvation, that the born again could die again.

In all the lists of hundreds of verses, I've examined each, and none actually say that. In fact, it was through this venture that I discovered much more Biblical teaching that when we are born of God, we are never "unborn", or that we would "die again".


Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

I bet these believed they were "saved" forever.

What we can say for sure about these is that they were trying to justify themselves by their works.

2 Peter 2:20-22
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

Doesn't sound saved forever to me.
The context here is earlier . . .

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,

Them that walk after the flesh, Romans 8:4-9 tells us that these are they who do not have the Spirit of Christ.

Ezekiel 18:24-26
"But when a RIGHTEOUS person TURNS AWAY FROM his righteousness AND DOES INJUSTICE and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty AND THE SIN HE HAS COMMITTED, FOR THEM he shall die. “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? WHEN A RIGHTEOUS PERSON TURNS AWAY from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die."

This describes life under the old covenent, and describes those who have the righteousness of works. It is lost as soon as the works cease, since works can never make US righteous.

1 John 3:6-9
"No one who ABIDES in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God."

There's that word "abide you do not seem to think is important...

I always like a more literal translation . . .

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If we live in Him, we do not sin. If we do sin, we have not seen Him, and we don't know Him. Don't let anyone fool you! He that does righteousness is righteous, just like Jesus is righteous.

He that commits sin is of the devil. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. If you are born of God, you do not commit sin. You cannot sin, because God's seed remains in you, and you cannot sin, because you are born of God.

Where in that passage do we see someone becoming un-born again?


2 Timothy 2:11-12
"The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; IF WE ENDURE, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;"

There IS no other way BUT to always abide IN HIM if we are true to our walk.

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

James 5:19-20
"MY BROTHERS, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering WILL SAVE HIS SOUL FROM DEATH and will cover a multitude of sins."

James is speaking to born again Christians (My brothers) so, how can he then say a wanderer is in danger of losing his soul from death?

. . . will save his 'psuchen', like our 'phyche", not pnuema, spirit. This does not specify temporal or spiritual death.

Colossians 1:21-23
"And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."

There ARE allot of "if's" in His Word...

Indeed there are!

upload_2020-7-13_14-58-43.png

This word, "grounded", "If (or since) you are persisting in the faith - having been founded - and settled and not being removed . . .

"having been founded", this is in the Perfect Tense Passive Voice. The Passive voice shows the direction of the action, it is done to us. The Perfect Tense shows the timing of the action, it was done and remains done, like the "rung bell". A bell having been rung can never return to being an "unrung bell", that is the use of the Perfect Tense.

What's been done to us is that we've been set upon a foundation, and that foundation is sure. That we remain shows we are on the true foundation.

The one who builds on the rock . . .

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." ¯\(°_o)/¯

And this passage tells us how we should understand these people. They are not "of us", never were true believers.

Much love!
 
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justbyfaith

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Faith is counted as Righteousness, not abiding, or enduring, or any other self effort.

Since we abide and endure by faith, it is a moot point. Abiding and enduring will not be by self-effort but will be done because your faith in Christ is genuine and because you understand the warnings of holy scripture.
 

Behold

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Since we abide and endure by faith, i.

We dont abide and endure by Faith.
We are "in Christ", through redemption which causes us to abide.

You are still trusting in your faith as your savior.
And as i told you a few times, your Faith didn't save you, and can't keep you saved.
God saved you through your faith, and God keeps you saved according to His faithfulness, not yours.

Philippians 1:6
 

justbyfaith

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We are "in Christ", through redemption which causes us to abide.

We have redemption and are in Christ through faith (Romans 5:2).

You are still trusting in your faith as your savior.
And as i told you a few times, your Faith didn't save you, and can't keep you saved.

This is unbiblical (see 1 Peter 1:5 (kjv), 1 John 5:18).

1Pe 1:5, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Jo 5:18, We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
 
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Behold

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We have redemption and are in Christ through faith (Romans 5:2).

1Pe 1:5, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Your first verse, speaks to initial Salvation, whereby God accepted our faith, and we are "justified by faith"...= "redemption".

Your 2nd verse, speaks of Jesus's faith.... This is why its called the "power of God, Through Faith".
So, that a different faith.....its the faith that KEEPS you.
This is Hebrews 12: 2 """"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."""

So, Salvation is God accepting our initial faith to Justify us..>"justification by faith", then Jesus (God) becomes from that same moment, the author and finisher of "our" Faith.

Go here to learn more about this..

What is "Amazing Grace"?
 

justbyfaith

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Yes, the Lord instills within us the faith that we need to be able to keep our salvation.

He is the one that keeps us through our faith (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5); which He instills within us through the Holy Ghost as a fruit (Galatians 5:22-23) and as a gift (1 Corinthians 12:9).
 

justbyfaith

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Its our faith initially, but Christ's ultimately.
It is His faith initially, and ours ultimately.

It is faith that is given to us by Him.

Once it is given to us, it belongs to us.

He does in fact seal us by the Holy Spirit so that His faith within us will keep us as He motivates us by the Spirit to abide in Him through that faith.
 

Nancy

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Hi Nancy,

I spent a few years on this some time back. I would routinely find books, websites, anything, where people would make their arguments that being reborn from God was not necessarily forever, that is, that you could somehow lose salvation, that the born again could die again.

In all the lists of hundreds of verses, I've examined each, and none actually say that. In fact, it was through this venture that I discovered much more Biblical teaching that when we are born of God, we are never "unborn", or that we would "die again".




What we can say for sure about these is that they were trying to justify themselves by their works.


The context here is earlier . . .

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed,

Them that walk after the flesh, Romans 8:4-9 tells us that these are they who do not have the Spirit of Christ.



This describes life under the old covenent, and describes those who have the righteousness of works. It is lost as soon as the works cease, since works can never make US righteous.



I always like a more literal translation . . .

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If we live in Him, we do not sin. If we do sin, we have not seen Him, and we don't know Him. Don't let anyone fool you! He that does righteousness is righteous, just like Jesus is righteous.

He that commits sin is of the devil. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. If you are born of God, you do not commit sin. You cannot sin, because God's seed remains in you, and you cannot sin, because you are born of God.

Where in that passage do we see someone becoming un-born again?




13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.



. . . will save his 'psuchen', like our 'phyche", not pnuema, spirit. This does not specify temporal or spiritual death.



Indeed there are!

View attachment 9889

This word, "grounded", "If (or since) you are persisting in the faith - having been founded - and settled and not being removed . . .

"having been founded", this is in the Perfect Tense Passive Voice. The Passive voice shows the direction of the action, it is done to us. The Perfect Tense shows the timing of the action, it was done and remains done, like the "rung bell". A bell having been rung can never return to being an "unrung bell", that is the use of the Perfect Tense.

What's been done to us is that we've been set upon a foundation, and that foundation is sure. That we remain shows we are on the true foundation.

The one who builds on the rock . . .



And this passage tells us how we should understand these people. They are not "of us", never were true believers.

Much love!

Yes, very good Marks,
I suppose it all boils down to whether one has His Spirit within them, which... just brings us right back to OSAS ...and weather or not I believe OSAS, matters not at all when it comes to salvation. :)



confusedwhatdoesthismeme-5ab836db119fa80037791e45.PNG
 
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