You're contradicting yourself!
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Amen Jesus!
Salvation Through Baptism ???
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Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
Amen Jesus!
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8) was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning (Hebrews 11:7).
If being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation, we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. *You can read about it in Luke 5:12-15. *No water is found here. Naaman was not even a believer until after dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (vs. 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers!
Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins. The Bible uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD and not of salvation by H20. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation by H20, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).
The Ephesians were saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) just like the rest of us. You really seem to really be hung up on your pet verses. In Acts 19:2, Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed.
Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10). It did signify their inclusion into the church. Apostles were also present when the Samaritans (chapter 8) were included. God's purpose here was to emphasize unity in the church.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
No contradiction. Christ and the Apostles said to believe and be baptized. If that does not happen it is between you and Christ. Where is Paradise? You are saying that Christ went to heaven and back to the tomb, resurrected and then ascended to heaven. There is nothing in the storyline that suggest this. We can speculate what paradise is, but it is all speculation.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In regards to "water" in John 3:5, take note that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and *connects it with receiving everlasting life.* John 4:14 - but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.
John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.
The word "water" is also used in scripture as an emblem of the word of God and in such is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, divine life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4). The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23), but the Holy Spirit is the Agent who accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)
The Bible says MANY things for us to do. Do you obey them all? I'm sorry you have so much trouble with "Paradise". I think most people understand it.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *Not through faith and water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, not through water baptism. Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were "baptized into Christ" have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." *Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses, but in regards to "identification" with Moses. So believers are "baptized by one Spirit into one body" (1 Corinthians 12:13) upon believing the gospel (Ephesians 1:13) and water baptized into Christ would be in regards to "identification." Works-salvationists generally confuse water baptism with Spirit baptism.
So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO.
"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved as well (Romans 13:14). Right? NO. Let's be consistent. This exhortation is to those ALREADY SAVED.
"Put off," wrote Paul, "the old man," and "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness"(Ephesians 4:22,24); And, "put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil" (Ephesians 6:11).
The allusion is to putting off old clothes and putting on new ones, to enclosing oneself in armor, etc. When a soldier puts on armor he is imitating his superiors and trainers, is revealing himself to be a soldier. Putting on a judge's robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare their qualifications.
So too with being water baptized, the Christian puts on robes for which they has previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christ is not what makes one become a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it. If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian (child of God through faith), then one becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what they are not.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I have no trouble with paradise. There are people that will form a whole religion on one scripture. What are you going to do with, you must hate your mother and father to be a disciple of Christ? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Selling all that you have is a requirement for salvation stipulated by Christ Himself.
Matthew 7:13-14
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Few who find it from the time of Christ. Salvation is not a loosey goosey thing that you get to choose the way. The wide gate that leads to destruction. What you describe is anything works, what Christ describes is a narrow Way. The only Way. From there comes judgment.
You hate your parents? You sold everything? You're perfect?
FYI, I was baptized in the Name of Jesus.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
They call them the hard sayings of Christ. And the Apostles have a few. And no I am not perfect.
Scripture speaks of two kinds of baptisms, yet in Ephesians 4:5 it says there is only one baptism. Do you know which baptism saves?
The demons also believe, so according to your calculations above and understanding demons + baptism = saved, correct?
You are having so much difficulties regarding baptism because you only focus on water baptism.
To God Be The Glory
I know "preaching Christ" includes teaching water immersion for the remission of sins b/c of what I read in (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16).
The jailer was out at midnight, in the dark looking for water so he could be baptized for the remission of sins. (Acts 16:30-34).
He was only said to BELIEVE after he was baptized in water vs 34.
That could shed new light on (Jn 3:16)
The jailer was out at midnight, in the dark looking for water so he could be baptized for the remission of sins. (Acts 16:30-34).
He was only said to BELIEVE after he was baptized in water vs 34.
That could shed new light on (Jn 3:16)
Bound to be water baptism b/c water is mentioned in (1Peter 3:20,21).
Baptism saves!!!
Do you believe and obey all the Bible? The emphasis was clearly on REPENT and be baptized! Why did you omit REPENT?
I guess Jesus lied to the thief on the cross?
Luke 23:43
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
The Truth is that the thief was with Jesus in Paradise and wasn't baptized. If that insults you, so be it.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
For about the 50th time, you DO NOT form a doctrine out of one verse of scripture.
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
In Romans 6:4, the phrase "buried with Him through baptism," seems to support the idea that baptism is the instrumental cause of justification. However, even here baptism could be understood as the sign of justification. It is not unusual in Scripture to call the reality by the name of its sign. Thus, for example, Paul says that all Christians are circumcised (even though one may not be physically circumcised) - meaning that they possess what circumcision signifies (Philippians 3:3). Using this kind of language, Paul can speak of the reality of the believers’ spiritual union with Christ, and the benefits which flow from that union, in terms of baptism, its sign.
We are forced to give this interpretation by the context. Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that FAITH, not baptism is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1). That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification" (Romans 4:24,25).
As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains, "A symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality."
Romans 6:3 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Romans 6:4 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Since believers receive the benefits of Christ’s death and resurrection (justification), and that through faith, believers must be spiritually united to Him (delivered and raised up with Him). If baptism is taken as the instrumental cause, then Paul contradicts what he had established before, namely that justification is by FAITH, not baptism. *Hermeneutics. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by immersing the new believer in and out of the water.
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