What does the Kingdom of God mean to you?

Miss Hepburn said:

"Thus, if we connect the dots, we see that one of many definitions of the Church is that it is the Kingdom of God. " -Irish Eddie
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And if we connected the dots more - is the Church/church "within" ?
See how it gets confusing to me - is a church a building - a congregation wherever it is held - a building, open air, 4 people in a home, 2 people talking about God at a restaurant, within inside... ?

I seem to follow the "church" being believers everywhere... that's not hard for me.
But, then others disagree with that.

"Church/church" is probably the hardest overall single concept in the Bible for me. So far anyway.

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Why not do what I have just tried to do for you. Take the words which are in Hebrew and Greek and which translate into the English word "church". See what it is that they are talking about. Then examine closely the characteristics of that particular institution -- is it visible? Is it physical? Is it on earth? Does it have leadership? How is that leadership responsible to God? How does that leadership exert authority over those in that body?

I think those concepts should help you firm up in your mind what the biblical definition of the Church is.

There are two churches in the Bible. The false church which is religion. The true Church which is in us all.

IrishEddieOHara said:

Why not do what I have just tried to do for you. Take the words which are in Hebrew and Greek and which translate into the English word "church". See what it is that they are talking about. Then examine closely the characteristics of that particular institution -- is it visible? Is it physical? Is it on earth? Does it have leadership? How is that leadership responsible to God? How does that leadership exert authority over those in that body?

I think those concepts should help you firm up in your mind what the biblical definition of the Church is.

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Benoni said:

There are two churches in the Bible. The false church which is religion. The true Church which is in us all.

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That is not the definition of the Hebrew word "qahal" or the Greek word "eklessia". Both of these words refer to a physical, visible, hierarchical body with human leadership. The Church is the "congregation" or "gathering". Pray tell me how I can have a "gathering" or "congregation" inside me. Your definition doesn't even fit those words. It is the standard Calvinist definition which John Calvin created to convince people that they could leave the Church and not face the wrath of God for such disobedience to legitimate authority, no matter how badly that authority was ruling at the time.

Miss Hepburn said:

Well, I returned to this topic, because I don't think/consider the "church or Church " to be the Kingdom of God.

I consider the Kingdom to be within inside us and to be at hand - and is to be saught first and foremost.

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It is a manifestation of the kingdom of God.

Eklessia is the Greek word for Church.

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[font="tahoma][size="3"]Actually this is inaccurate, the English word "church" is derived from the Greek word kuriakos and means "the Lord's" , ekkelsia means "called out ones"[/size][/font]


To refer to the ekklesia as "the church" is a mistranslation and a mistake that has caused a severe misnomer concerning the entity of the body of Christ, to which many today think of ekklesia as a material building as in " look at the old white church with the steeple", something we go to, or something we do like "we sure had church tonight". I believe many fail to understand the spiritual entity of the ekklesia because of this carnal misnomer.

jiggyfly said:

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[font="tahoma][size="3"]Actually this is inaccurate, the English word "church" is derived from the Greek word kuriakos and means "the Lord's" , ekkelsia means "called out ones"[/size][/font]
To refer to the ekklesia as "the church" is a mistranslation and a mistake that has caused a severe misnomer concerning the entity of the body of Christ, to which many today think of ekklesia as a material building as in " look at the old white church with the steeple", something we go to, or something we do like "we sure had church tonight". I believe many fail to understand the spiritual entity of the ekklesia because of this carnal misnomer.

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This is the problem with Protestantism and the idea that everyone has the right to "private interpretation." 2,000 years of Christians, of both Protestant and Catholic, have defined the Greek word "eklessia" to mean Church. Men who are fluent in Greek, who are smarter than both you and I combined, have agreed that this is the right translation.

Yet here you come, with some sort of agenda, and you decide that you know more than all others.

There is a strange arrogance in Protestantism wherein its members refuse to build upon the foundations which have been laid by the Apostles, the Early Fathers, and the saints of the Church over the last 2000 years. Instead, there appears to be this terrible need for anyone with a Bible and a minimal ability to read and speak to try to act as if they are so intelligent, so brilliant, so thoughtful, that they can find deep and esoteric "truth" that 2000 years of other men missed entirely.

I find that very dishonest, quite frankly. As one critic said "It's almost as if they act like the Holy Spirit speaks to them and them alone."

IrishEddieOHara said:

This is the problem with Protestantism and the idea that everyone has the right to "private interpretation." 2,000 years of Christians, of both Protestant and Catholic, have defined the Greek word "eklessia" to mean Church. Men who are fluent in Greek, who are smarter than both you and I combined, have agreed that this is the right translation.

Yet here you come, with some sort of agenda, and you decide that you know more than all others.

There is a strange arrogance in Protestantism wherein its members refuse to build upon the foundations which have been laid by the Apostles, the Early Fathers, and the saints of the Church over the last 2000 years. Instead, there appears to be this terrible need for anyone with a Bible and a minimal ability to read and speak to try to act as if they are so intelligent, so brilliant, so thoughtful, that they can find deep and esoteric "truth" that 2000 years of other men missed entirely.

I find that very dishonest, quite frankly. As one critic said "It's almost as if they act like the Holy Spirit speaks to them and them alone."

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Guess you don't like correction eh. It's all there and relatively easy to research. Some feel there is a very rich heritage in the "church" over the centuries, this same "church" that brutally killed and tortured tens of thousands of people all in the name of God, the God that loves. Yes history can be very revealing.

Argue all you want with linguistics but it doesn't change the truth.

Miss Hepburn said:

It didn't appear to me in the least that jiggy had any "agenda". Or was acting in any way -as if he was a
know it all or the Holy Spirit was speaking directly to him --
He seemed to know something about that word. Maybe he's incorrect, maybe not. But he was unemotional
and I believe that if someone came along to change his mind with scholarly research he would change - thus "no agenda".

And that's not because I lean towards agreeing him, either, really.
I can change also. I'm after the truth, really. My opinions are malleable.

Thanks,
Miss Hepburn

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The problem with jiggy and all others like him is that he is making a statement that cuts across 2000 years of Church teaching, of the intelligence and teaching of men who were intimately associated with the Greek and spoke it, and of men whose shoes he couldn't carry intellectually. This is the commonality of Protestantism. I have even seen two Protestants on a forum board arguing like crazy with each other over some nuance of a word because they don't agree. Each one condemning the other to hell for not accepting a definition. Each one acting like he and he alone is spoken to by the Holy Spirit regarding Truth. This is the craziness of Protestantism, and its deeply rooted in pride which will not accept that God may have chosen someone else (or actually, an institution) into which He pours his Truth.

It is very humbling to human pride to have to think and admit that someone else is actually correct. It is something that Protestants do not like to do when confronted with the 2000 years of Church teaching and Truth.

Miss Hepburn said:

I was just thinking about that quote above...
What would make a person say that?

I bet because some born again Protestants don't go through a Pope, bishop, priest, saints, other's writings,
magisterium, religious superior of some sort for interpretation and guidance in their walk towards and with God, the Father.

I mean here you have someone like Sister Faustina and many, many others- she has Jesus come to her- but a
superior has to "approve" that it even happened.

If Mary came to me or Jesus, I would not be going to someone else - no matter their position as friend or priest to
confirm that it really happened, see what I mean?

Thus, to Catholics it seems we are islands unto ourselves - and that the Holy Spirit talks only to us, perhaps.

I have had huge experiences of the Holy Spirit coming to me for HOURS - of course, I was a limp pile of weaping gratitude in awe...if I had told a priest he probably would have thought I was borderline psychotic or had a psychotic break. And dismiss it.
Sometimes when I tell a "Protestant Christian" what has been revealed to me at different times ---they sometimes will say -"Where does it say that in the Bible?"
Even they can get so bogged down in the written word rather than a direct experience.

Take care,
Miss Hepburn

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The Scriptures are quite clear as to where the Truth is found.

1 Tim 3: [sup]15[/sup]But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

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To anyone who really wishes to be honest with himself, it is clearly evident that the protection of the Holy Spirit from teaching doctrinal and moral error has only been found in the Catholic Church. One merely has to look at all the THOUSANDS of different Protestant interpretations of scripture, doctrines, ideas, and sometimes very bizarre practices to see that this is not the place the Holy Spirit is. Catholic doctrine has developed over the centuries, but the foundational truths of the faith have not changed -- they have been built upon.

IrishEddieOHara said:

To anyone who really wishes to be honest with himself, it is clearly evident that the protection of the Holy Spirit from teaching doctrinal and moral error has only been found in the Catholic Church.

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Absolutely ludicrous, thanks for the chuckle.

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that was pretty good.....however it is at hand,a drunk can not see it...[so some where perhaps we find it and it grows ]...................................................

Christina said:

Now to answer the question as I see it
Christ is the Power the key that opened the door to salvation to enter into the kingdom of God ..The kingdom of God has always existed. It is a growing living thing. that has and will encompass all things.   

Mark 4:30 And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?

4:31 [It is] like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:

4:32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

However flesh and blood can not enter in to the kingdom of God

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The kingdom of God is coming here physically when Christ returns but for now we can spiritually be a part of it when we accept Christ and keep our minds and hearts turned toward him 

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jiggyfly said:

Absolutely ludicrous, thanks for the chuckle.

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In other words, you don't have a cogent response to the Truth, like all Protestants

IrishEddieOHara said:

In other words, you don't have a cogent response to the Truth, like all Protestants

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You seem to be a very assuming person.

responde stulto iuxta stultitiam suam ne sibi sapiens esse videatur

jiggyfly said:

You seem to be a very assuming person.

responde stulto iuxta stultitiam suam ne sibi sapiens esse videatur

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You didn't give me anything even closely resembling an answer, did you? Just a one liner off the cuff. You stand against 2000 years of men who taught different than you, you stand against the current consensus of intellectuals, and I am supposed to bow to your understanding just because you say so?

You know who else does that -- cults!

Christian history is filled with men who thought that they found something different and hence, they were smarter than other and God had indeed spoken to them. That is not how the Holy Spirit works. We see very early in Acts 15 that after the council had met, they went with the consensus opinion, say "It seems good to us and to the Holy Spirit". The voice of the one was outweighed by the voice of the many.

And that has been how the Spirit of God has moved throughout the Church for 2000 years.

Your post (and your arrogance) is why the "private interpretation" of Protestantism is so dangerous. It has resulted in thousands of denominations, shredded the Body of Christ in to fragments, divided people, started wars and bloodshed, and is not in line with the prayer in John 17 where Jesus prayed that all believers be "ONE" not many!

Give me an example of the "massacring of whole villages of innocent people." Your just saying it does not make it so.

you all are sinners,come from groups that have done terrible things......you spend to much time tring to be bible teachers,not enough time giving all you have ..and having faith that god will take care of you if you stopped supporting the evil things from the power we call america...[all the saints will be fooled dah who do you think they are look in the mirror we are in the same boat here and the wrath of god will come to us for good reason that we are lost]and you all think you got the tidbits to follow them that say here he is there he is...wow to you all for time is short and grief will be high ..and all you do is fight over the milk .......................................

IrishEddie OHara said:

Give me an example of the "massacring of whole villages of innocent people." Your just saying it does not make it so.

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