Why do you think faith alone saves us?

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Benoni

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Alot of words but where is the scripture?

WhiteKnuckle said:
I think faith alone saves us simply because God said it. So, we believe that God took away our sins through Jesus Christ. If we don't believe that we're calling God a liar. Since God can't lie, that would make us liars, and we'd have more sin added to the sins we can't take away from ourselves. That would make us live in perpetual sin, even if all other sins are taken away whether we believe or not. We would unwittingly add sin. That's why simply not believing is a sin.

The person that doesn't believe will not have the sins of unbelief taken away, they stay there. That's why you can't be redeemed without believing.

Works can't save, that's a fact. But, works are merely a result of believing. Since we believe we obey, by obey we show works. We show works not because we believe that something better is going to come our way (well, we all fall into a type of fear or hope depending on our own works), However, works are to show the Love of Christ, and that Christ loves All men regardless of their sins.

Throu Jesus we have a type of freedom of what our works are that we would have in the old covenant.

That's how I see it anyway.
 

Benoni

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When it comes to carnal mans having a desire to walk and talk with God he is dead from that realm for he has no spiritual life to see, or hear God.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:11 (AMP) No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

Romans 3:11 (NCV) 11 There is no one who understands.
There is no one who looks to God for help.

This is why God must draw us (John 6:44) or quicken us out of our carnal nature and we have no freewill or choice within this human naked state to do this on our own. Notice the context of Ephesians 2 where God’s Spirit took seven verses to lay down the foundation of how man’s spiritual death state and God must quicken us. (Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING!

1(1) And you hath he quickened, (2) who were dead in trespasses and sins;
"For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (3) (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.
 

Benoni

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Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself that in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him." [Ephesians 1:9-10].



So precious are these verses, we must share them also from two other translations, each which adds to the beauty and wonder of this glorious truth.

Phillips: "For God has allowed us to know the secret of His plan, and it is this: He purposes in His sovereign will that all human history shall be consummated in Christ, that everything that exists in Heaven or earth shall find its perfection and fulfillment in Him."

Weymouth: "He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it-- the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."
 

Nomad

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Once again Benoni, you're way off-topic with your hobbyhorse doctrine. Allow me to assist you. The question at hand here is, is faith alone God's appointed appropriating instrument for justification or is it faith + works? Could it be that works and obedience are rather the fruit or result of faith as Scripture saith?


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Benoni

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Nomad,

If anyone has a hobby horse doctrine it is you who is maliciously with calculation ignored the total context of Ephesians 2 seeing we have discussed this very principle thoroughly many times.

Faith comes only after God quicken the carnal man who is dead in trespasses and sin. You fundies love to cry context when it fits your hobby horse doctrine, well you are ignore the context you put so much trust in; look at the context of the chapter instead of your hobby horse doctrine.


Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast



It is a strange theory that obsesses men that the human will is greater in power than God, and that, no matter what the will of God is for His creatures, man is able finally to wreck it.

Although the Holy Spirit seeks to woo all men to Christ, since God loves all mankind and wills to save all men, still, the omniscient God has boxed Himself into a corner, since the will of God is bound by the will of man, and the Omnipotent Spirit can be resisted by finite man if man so chooses.

Such faulty reasoning actually brings into prominence ANOTHER OMNIPOTENCE which, because it baffles the omnipotence and love of God, is by far the greater. Man will not so God cannot! What makes this notion so tragic is that it DEIFIES MAN, elevating him to god-hood, and aligns all who embrace it with the very sin that caused the fall in the beginning!

It is true that man has a will, but so also has God.

It is true that man is endowed with power, but God is all-powerful.

It is true that, speaking generally, the material world is regulated by law, but behind that law is the law-Giver and law-Administrator.

Man is but the creature. God is the Creator, and untold ages before man first saw fight "the mighty God" (Isa. 9:6) existed, and ere the world was founded, made His plans; and being infinite in power and man only finite, His purpose and plan cannot be withstood or thwarted by the creatures of His own hands.

To say that Christ is unable to win to Himself those who are unwilling is to deny that all power in heaven and earth is His. To say that Christ cannot put forth His power without destroying man's responsibility is a begging of the question here raised, for HE HAS put forth His power and MADE WILLING those who HAVE come to Him, and if He did this without destroying their responsibility, just why "CANNOT" He do so with others?
 

Nomad

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One again Benoni, I agree that faith is the gift of God. But, that's not the point of this thread.

Let's try this again. From my previous post:

The question at hand here is, is faith alone God's appointed appropriating instrument for justification or is it faith + works? Could it be that works and obedience are rather the fruit or result of faith as Scripture saith?


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Benoni

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Amen, but God is not calling all people. So yes thouse who are called are justified but for a purpose.

Nomad said:
One again Benoni, I agree that faith is the gift of God. But, that's not the point of this thread.

Let's try this again. From my previous post:

The question at hand here is, is faith alone God's appointed appropriating instrument for justification or is it faith + works? Could it be that works and obedience are rather the fruit or result of faith as Scripture saith?


Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

Benoni

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You speak of justification, So please let us look at God’s Word.

Please give up, let go and let God.


Colossians 3:14-16

14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

(Amp) 15And let the peace (soul harmony which comes) from Christ rule (act as umpire continually) in your hearts [deciding and settling with finality all questions that arise in your minds, in that peaceful state] to which as [members of Christ's] one body you were also called [to live]. And be thankful (appreciative), [giving praise to God always].


Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Resurrection means to rise; notice the word unjust.
 

Butch5

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Miss Hepburn said:
Now, what I'm aiming for is not necessarily for verses.
I mean in your heart - in your understanding of God 's Heart...

Why? Why is it so simple - why is it we just have to have faith in His Son?

Thank you, I look forward to your posts,
:) Miss Hepburn


Faith alone doesn't save us.
 

Butch5

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Adstar said:
  • [quote author=Miss Hepburnlink=topic=11486.msg75822#msg75822 date=1260249937]
    Now, what I'm aiming for is not necessarily forverses.
    I mean in your heart - in your understanding of God 's Heart...

    Why? Why is it so simple - why is it we just have to have faith in HisSon?


    Thank you, I look forward to your posts,
    :) Miss Hepburn


  • God is perfect.
    He can only accept a Perfect creation to exist with Him in Eternity.
    Therefore to have eternity with God we must become perfect.
    We are not perfect.
    We cannot achieve perfection
    We can only be changed into a perfect state by Gods intervention.
    This intervention can never be earned.
    It must be a gift.
    So if we are transformed into a perfect state then there can be no boasting on our part.
    Therefore all Glory and Honour rests with God who has achieved the Redemption of His creation by His own Works.

    Therefore our works while we do them out of Love for God and Love for our Neighbour.
    And our efforts to resist sin while being noble showing agreement with the will of God.
    Can never reach a point of perfection that would justify eternity with God on their own merit.

    Therefore all talk of Works earning ones eternity with God is nothing but the pride of man striving to earn self-justification.


    The gift of salvation from God can only be a gift if it is not payed for. Once you pay for a gift then the gift becomes a payment. Indeed seeking to pay for the gift is an insult to the gift Giver. How would you feel if you when through hell on earth to obtain a gift for someone you love and for them to turn around and offer money for it?


    All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[/quote]

My friend, you have some dangerous statements in your post, the one highlighted may be the most dangerous.
 

Benoni

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Titus 3
1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
2To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
 

Benoni

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Heb. 13:13Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach

Revelation 18:3-5 3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Four things men follow other then Christ: Colossians 2:[sup]8[/sup] See ye that no man deceive you by philosophy and vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. Philosophy, vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, The name of God denotes the majesty the authority, the personality and the revealed character of God. In ever temple there is a god or and unseen god to which the temple is dedicated. God has given us a mind that must discover things for our selves. This goes even further when we understand that He is changing our mind from glory to glory so we can not just understand His Word; but that we understand what He is saying.

Isaiah 4 1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
 

mjrhealth

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Benoni, its nice that you have a good knowledge of the scriptures, but it means nothing, they cant save you, Paul after he was converted counted all His knowledge for dung. and only wanted to know Jesus. And Butch, salvation is a gift, a gift is given freely and accepted without cost, If you believe that you can earn your salvation by doing a greater work then Jesus, go ahead, but you will soon find it does nothing to earn you browny points. Jesus paid the price, you cannot add to it. Fait without works is dead, but this only works when you have being sent, If God Himself says go, like Jesus sent the apostles, and you go in faith, then surely the works must follow for Jesus cannot deny Himself, but if you go and then expect God to follow that is pure arrogance and ignorance, because that is works of the flesh and counts for nothing. And free will, the world is in the mess its in because of freewill. God wont stop you from doing something stupid if you choose to, and are persistent. Ultimately God plan will be fullfilled, but we still have the choice to believe or not.

In His Love
 

Stumpmaster

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From Benoni
God has given us a mind that must discover things for our selves.
God has given us minds so that we can discover thing for ourselves, and He has given us instructions on what He wants us to discover. He didn't want Adam and Eve to have the knowledge of good and evil and instructed them against discovering this.

Now that the world is fallen we have instructions not to be conformed to it but to change our mind by renovating it throughout and refurnishing it to accommodate the will of God.

Romans 12:2
(2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

"Discovering for ourselves" = "proving what that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God is."

Right on, Benoni!
 

Benoni

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First of all I have been saved for well over fifty years and have an awesome relationship with my Lord and savior; if fact i am striving for my full savation. Second point there is no such thing as freewill or choice in the Bible when it comes to salvation. Chapter and verse not opinion please.

mjrhealth said:
Benoni, its nice that you have a good knowledge of the scriptures, but it means nothing, they cant save you, Paul after he was converted counted all His knowledge for dung. and only wanted to know Jesus. And Butch, salvation is a gift, a gift is given freely and accepted without cost, If you believe that you can earn your salvation by doing a greater work then Jesus, go ahead, but you will soon find it does nothing to earn you browny points. Jesus paid the price, you cannot add to it. Fait without works is dead, but this only works when you have being sent, If God Himself says go, like Jesus sent the apostles, and you go in faith, then surely the works must follow for Jesus cannot deny Himself, but if you go and then expect God to follow that is pure arrogance and ignorance, because that is works of the flesh and counts for nothing. And free will, the world is in the mess its in because of freewill. God wont stop you from doing something stupid if you choose to, and are persistent. Ultimately God plan will be fullfilled, but we still have the choice to believe or not.

In His Love
 

Benoni

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God has given us minds but far too many of us have a religious mind a carnal mind and reject the deep things of God’s Word for they are spiritual. So what you are saying is Ps. 90: 1-2 and Romans 8:20 is lying and I should believe your opinion? I disagree with your assumption. I agree God instructed Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden tree but it was not their choice it was God who ordained the fall.


Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have[/quote]

Romans 8:18-21 (MSG) That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.

22-25All around us we observe a pregnant creation. The difficult times of pain throughout the world are simply birth pangs. But it's not only around us; it's within us. The Spirit of God is arousing us within. We're also feeling the birth pangs. These sterile and barren bodies of ours are yearning for full deliverance. That is why waiting does not diminish us, any more than waiting diminishes a pregnant mother. We are enlarged in the waiting. We, of course, don't see what is enlarging us. But the longer we wait, the larger we become, and the more joyful our expectancy.

God has only one will and it is good, acceptable and it is perfect.

Stumpmaster said:
From Benoni
God has given us a mind that must discover things for our selves.
God has given us minds so that we can discover thing for ourselves, and He has given us instructions on what He wants us to discover. He didn't want Adam and Eve to have the knowledge of good and evil and instructed them against discovering this.

Now that the world is fallen we have instructions not to be conformed to it but to change our mind by renovating it throughout and refurnishing it to accommodate the will of God.

Romans 12:2
(2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

"Discovering for ourselves" = "proving what that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God is."

Right on, Benoni!
 

Stumpmaster

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From Benoni:
God has given us minds but far too many of us have a religious mind a carnal mind and reject the deep things of God’s Word for they are spiritual. So what you are saying is Ps. 90: 1-2 and Romans 8:20 is lying and I should believe your opinion? I disagree with your assumption. I agree God instructed Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden tree but it was not their choice it was God who ordained the fall.

From Benoni:
Four things men follow other then Christ: Colossians 2:[sup]8[/sup] See ye that no man deceive you by philosophy and vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. Philosophy, vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, The name of God denotes the majesty the authority, the personality and the revealed character of God. In ever temple there is a god or and unseen god to which the temple is dedicated. God has given us a mind that must discover things for our selves. This goes even further when we understand that He is changing our mind from glory to glory so we can not just understand His Word; but that we understand what He is saying.
Why are you so disagreeable may I ask? You contradict your own posts and go off on a tangent even when someone finds a tiny shred of truth in your incorrect "dividing" of the word of God.
 

Benoni

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The Mind of Christ:

The reason I am disagreeable is because I disagree.

Where did I contradict my own post?

There is a mind of Christ which is a open mind, a progressive mind ( a mind that is always seeking asking and knocking). That mind is light a child in that it is open and hungry to sup with our Lord not a childish religous mind seeking to spin all understanding as they have been previously taught.

How hungry are you for God; how deep do you dare to probe, where your limits of God is in what you perceive who He is.

I read an article a while back from a man I respect as and believe anointed of God in many way. This man spoke of a dream he had where he was sitting at a table full of spiritual food, across the table was Jesus. They just sat there eating all this food which was right in front of them. As they sat there the man sup with Jesus, he noticed Billy Graham come to the table get a plate full of spiritual food, and he left. This happened over and over as he noticed many well known deep men of God eat from this table and then leave.

He then asks Jesus why they leaved after so little when there was so much to eat. Jesus replied to Him, they were satisfied.

I had an experience happen to me where for a time I feasted and feasted on some deep anointed literature; let me tell you something; I am satisfied; sure I want more.

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if ANY MAN hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to HIM and sup with HIM and he with ME.' The church of the last days is the church of the INDIVIDUAL. It is the individual believer with a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP to Christ. For the man who will forsake ALL ELSE and sup with Christ this is an age of glory, an hour of preparation such as we have never known. This is a time when the Spirit of God is speaking TO YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL. He seeks to sup and dine and feast with you apart from all the religious confusion about us. It is a glorious day when we see the promise that is ours in this hour"

The religious Mind:

Then we have the religious mind, which is far closer to carnal them spiritual; this mind is not open unless you agree with their preconceived idealism, being it Catholic, Pentecostal, JW and or Baptist this mind has the mind of 'what ever' agenda listed above or one of the twenty thousand sisters of Babylon, it is a closed mind and bias. They say they are following Christ (which means anointing) but in reality all they know is their preconceived bias.

God’s Word is like a river that flows and not a stagnet broken cistern.

Ezekiel 47: 4Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.

5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.


How deep is your river; up to your ankles or knees; or is it so deep and mighty all you can do is float as if flows and gets deep and wider continually.


I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new” scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.





Stumpmaster said:
From Benoni:
God has given us minds but far too many of us have a religious mind a carnal mind and reject the deep things of God’s Word for they are spiritual. So what you are saying is Ps. 90: 1-2 and Romans 8:20 is lying and I should believe your opinion? I disagree with your assumption. I agree God instructed Adam and Eve not to eat of the forbidden tree but it was not their choice it was God who ordained the fall.

From Benoni:
Four things men follow other then Christ: Colossians 2:[sup]8[/sup] See ye that no man deceive you by philosophy and vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. Philosophy, vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, The name of God denotes the majesty the authority, the personality and the revealed character of God. In ever temple there is a god or and unseen god to which the temple is dedicated. God has given us a mind that must discover things for our selves. This goes even further when we understand that He is changing our mind from glory to glory so we can not just understand His Word; but that we understand what He is saying.
Why are you so disagreeable may I ask? You contradict your own posts and go off on a tangent even when someone finds a tiny shred of truth in your incorrect "dividing" of the word of God.
 

Miss Hepburn

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Well, I guess my question created a bit of a stir.

If I myself were to answer the question - I would have to say - the reason I believe faith alone saves ---in whatever way one wants to interpret the word saves, I understand ---I would have to say it is because the Lord loves us so much.

It seems He loves us so much that ALL we have to do is believe in Him, acknowledge Him, have faith in Him - and it's all done - like a child that does a goofy bad thing, but looks at us with love it melts our heart and anything else he does -just doesn't matter. (Or replace child with lover.)

God is just waiting and wanting us to love Him and believe in Him, you know?

It's so simple. THAT is SO amazing - it's just all about Love for Him and His for us!
And that is how much, that no matter what weak, stupid things we do - when we have faith in Him - it brings so much joy to Him - He forgives and forgets and will never let us go.
What a love story.
:)