Salvation Through Baptism ???

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Mr C

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You erroneously interpret all of those scriptures that you cited above to teach that man is saved by works. You could not make it any clearer that you teach salvation by works. Your argument about being saved by grace "after accomplishing a work that God commands you to do" sounds similar to what Mormonism teaches. In 2 Nephi 25:23 (from the book of Mormon) we read "..it is by grace that we are saved, after all WE can do." In other words, do all YOU can or else the Lord won't be able to save you, which is in complete contradiction to (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..) Your argument also reminds me of what someone who attends the church of Christ (Campbellism) once said to me during a discussion: "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." That is also in complete contradiction to (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..)

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it and building the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning (Hebrews 11:17).

In regards to Naaman, if being healed from leprosy is an illustration of salvation by works (being immersed 7 times in the Jordan river) we have another case that reveals one can be saved without any water. *Read about it in (Luke 5:12-15). *No water is found here. Naaman was not even a believer until "after" dipping in Jordan. He said "NOW" (after being healed) I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," (2 Kings 5:15) and vowed to worship only Him (verse 17). If we follow this "example," we will have to baptize unbelievers! Naaman received cleansing from leprosy (not eternal life) after he dipped in the Jordan 7 times, but no sins were literally remitted for Naaman in Jordan. Likewise, water baptism does not literally remit sins. The NT uses the experience of Naaman as illustrative of the SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD, not of salvation by works/water baptism. Naaman was a heathen, not a believer, and did not know God until the miracle occurred. The purpose of the miracle had nothing to do with salvation by works, but was to demonstrate "there is a prophet in Israel" (2 Kings 5:8) and that "there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel," as Naaman found out (2 Kings 5:15).

Sadly, you seem to have more faith in water baptism to save you than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. :( Those who refuse to believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) end up turning to supplements. In your case it's water baptism. *Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. *No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, (not faith and water baptism) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 - through whom also we have access by faith into this grace (not faith and water baptism) in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

God's grace is unmerited and shows us mercy, kindness, and patience instead of the judgment that we deserve for sinning against Him. God's grace cannot be earned by our actions. Grace is based on the character of God and not on our works, performance, ability to keep the law etc.. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 11:6 - "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."

Ephesians 2:8,9 - We are saved by grace through faith, not works, not of ourselves it is the gift of God.

2 Timothy 1:9 - "who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."

God's grace (enabling power) also operates sovereignly in the lives of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.

2 Corinthians 1:12 - For our proud confidence is this: the testimony of our conscience, that in holiness and godly sincerity, not in fleshly wisdom but in the grace of God, we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially toward you.

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.

Let's notice what (Rom. 6:3-18) teaches.

16. decide who to serve.
17. Obey a certain Doctrine (Rom. 6:3-6) (Acts 8:5,12,13, 26-40)
18. Being Then Freed From Sin ye became servants of righteousness. (Acts 22:16)

I think that about settle it.
 

Marymog

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It's no secret that the Roman Catholic church teaches man is saved by faith and works.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works
Your right. There are no secrets on what The Church teaches. They have 2,000 years worth of documents, starting with the Didache, showing what they teach. Where can I find the writings of what your church teaches mailmanddan?

Also, and this is very important so please don’t gloss over it: You said it is no secret what the Catholic Church teaches But then provide a link to a non-catholic site on what the Catholic Church allegedly teaches. Why would you do that? Why not just go to a catholic site and quote it?

Keeping it real....Mary
 

mailmandan

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What is the word I’m looking for?? I was being facetious....no, that’s not it! Sarcastic...nope nope that’s not it.....There is another word for it....help me out here!!!
Help me out here. o_O So which is it? Do you believe that man is saved by grace through faith, not works, OR through faith and works?
 

mailmandan

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Your right. There are no secrets on what The Church teaches. They have 2,000 years worth of documents, starting with the Didache, showing what they teach. Where can I find the writings of what your church teaches mailmanddan?

Also, and this is very important so please don’t gloss over it: You said it is no secret what the Catholic Church teaches But then provide a link to a non-catholic site on what the Catholic Church allegedly teaches. Why would you do that? Why not just go to a catholic site and quote it?

Keeping it real....Mary
Joe Mizzi (who writes these articles on that site) is a former Roman Catholic and he is quoting doctrine straight out of the Roman Catholic church.
 

Enoch111

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They have 2,000 years worth of documents...
2,000 years worth of false doctrines is still 2,000 years of false doctrines. The Gospel excludes all works from salvation (eternal life), which is the gift of God's grace to the one who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

mailmandan

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You have a chance now to clear up any confusion here. Do you believe that man saved by faith AND WORKS? - YES or NO.
 

Marymog

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You just contradicted yourself again. You said God did not say that we are saved by works, then you turn around and say God said what we must do to be saved and that list INCLUDES works. So which is it? You can't have it both ways.
YES....obtaining our salvation INCLUDES works....You finally got it!
 
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Marymog

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And that list of things you mentioned that you said we must do to be saved includes works. Ugggg indeed. ;)
YES....You finally got it!!!! The list God gave us on the things we must do to be saved INCLUDES works!

Now we can end this conversation....
 
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marksman

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Water baptism does not save anyone.
No one has said it does. What saves people is repentance AND BAPTISM. Baptism is effected once a person has repented. No repentance no salvation. According to Acts 2 baptism follows repentance. simple.

Repentance is getting rid of the old man and baptism is putting on the new. You can't put on the new until you get rid of the old and there is no point getting rid of the old if you don't put on the new.

2Corinthians 5:17 So that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new!

Romans 6:4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.
 
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Marymog

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Help me out here. o_O So which is it? Do you believe that man is saved by grace through faith, not works, OR through faith and works?
You are presenting an either or choice. Scripture does not do that so why are you?

Read Post #790 Again
 

Marymog

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Joe Mizzi (who writes these articles on that site) is a former Roman Catholic and he is quoting doctrine straight out of the Roman Catholic church.
Did he quote all of doctrine concerning this matter or did he cherry pick it?

Sooooo, once again, since you agree it is not secret what the CC teaches: Why did you not just go to a catholic site and quote it?
 

mailmandan

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Let's notice what (Rom. 6:3-18) teaches.

16. decide who to serve.
17. Obey a certain Doctrine (Rom. 6:3-6) (Acts 8:5,12,13, 26-40)
18. Being Then Freed From Sin ye became servants of righteousness. (Acts 22:16)

I think that about settle it.
That's just your biased interpretation of Romans 6:3-18 in order to promote salvation by water baptism. You continue to confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism). Now in regards to Romans 6:16, works-salvationists typically ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which "follow saving faith in Christ" are "unto righteousness," as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

There is a contrast here between servants/slaves. There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for believing the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness.
 

mailmandan

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YES....obtaining our salvation INCLUDES works....You finally got it!
How did I finally get it? I knew all along that's what you were teaching, along with a few others on this thread. Now you just need to figure out how many works you must accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Christ save you. Let me know when you figure that out. ;)

As I mentioned before, Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)
 

Marymog

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You have a chance now to clear up any confusion here. Do you believe that man saved by faith AND WORKS? - YES or NO.
Do you believe that if you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" you will be saved?
 
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Mr C

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Water did not cleanse Naaman the leper (2Kings5).

His faith can be seen in dipping 7 times in muddy water (Heb.11).

Mr 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
 

Candidus

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I do not teach baptismal regeneration.

I was passive when I was baptized in water. Someone else was doing the work.
And that "somebody" was not God! It was faith in the work of some person, a mere sinful creature. Did they pick you up, carry you into and out of the water? If not, YOU participated in the action, and were not passive.

It is God who is doing the work when I am baptized in water (Col.2:11,12)

But Col. 2:11 -12 has no water in it! In fact, it is impossible to baptize with water without using hands, any less than a Jew could circumcize without hands!
Only God, the Holy Spirit can spiritually baptize or circumcize "without hands."

The Lord is cutting away sins (not skin)
at the point of water baptism (Acts 2:38,47 ; 8:5,12,13,26-40 ; 16:15 ; 16:30-34 ; 22:16)

Strange... you run to a spiritual answer after you force a literal/physical interpretation and water where it does not exist!

Yet Peter makes it clear...
“Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The LIKE FIGURE whereunto even baptism doth also save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Water does not cleanse from sins. If it were so, any sinner could take a bath or a shower and save themselves.
 
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mailmandan

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Do you believe that if you declare with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" you will be saved?
Of course, because this confession is an expression of faith from the heart (and not a work for salvation). Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9,10) are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. *Notice in Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is our Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead is not unto righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" (not by the Holy Spirit) "lip service confession" is not unto salvation.
 
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Marymog

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How did I finally get it? I knew all along that's what you were teaching, along with a few others on this thread. Now you just need to figure out how many works you must accomplish and "add" as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to "help" Christ save you. Let me know when you figure that out. ;)

As I mentioned before, Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)
It is not what I am teaching. It is what The Church has btaught for 2,000 years. What you are teaching is around 500 years old. So the question is: Why did God wait 1,500 years to reveal this “truth” to the men you follow?

Your “figure out how many works you must accomplish” is bizarre!!!
 
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mailmandan

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It is not what I am teaching. It is what The Church has btaught for 2,000 years. What you are teaching is around 500 years old. So the question is: Why did God wait 1,500 years to reveal this “truth” to the men you follow?
Great sales pitch for Roman Catholics, but it does not work on me and I'm a former Roman Catholic.

Your “figure out how many works you must accomplish” is bizarre!!!
Not bizarre at all. If you believe that man is saved by faith AND WORKS, then there must be a set amount of works that must be accomplished in order to be saved. If not, why not? How in the world could you ever know for sure that you were saved if salvation is based (at least in part) on your performance/works? You couldn't.

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. :)
 
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