What About Other Religions?

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Isick

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I attended a local christian outreach program and had the chance to ask some questions to some local Christians. Here is what I concluded:
- You must believe in Christ
- You must believe he died for your sins
- You must believe he was God.
That seemed easy enough, but when I asked them, "Will observant Jews and Muslims sit with God in heaven?" many of them found it hard to say no.

So now I pose my question to the Educated Christians at this forum. Keeping in mind that they prostrate before the same God as Christians, will an observant Jew or devout Muslim be invited into a Heaven?

Thanks
 

gumby

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Jewish people some yes and some no, the ones who beleive that jesus (yeshua) came and died on the cross for there sins and accept him as there savior yes. Muslims if they beleive in jesus as well then yes they to shall be saved. For the ones that place another god/deity before christ or with christ when he returns then no. Remember John 14:6, John 10:9, John 11:25 and 1st John 5:20. Christ is our only way in this troubled world.

God bless :)
 

kestrel

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I attended a local christian outreach program and had the chance to ask some questions to some local Christians. Here is what I concluded:
- You must believe in Christ
- You must believe he died for your sins
- You must believe he was God.
That seemed easy enough, but when I asked them, "Will observant Jews and Muslims sit with God in heaven?" many of them found it hard to say no.

So now I pose my question to the Educated Christians at this forum. Keeping in mind that they prostrate before the same God as Christians, will an observant Jew or devout Muslim be invited into a Heaven?

Thanks

It's very hard to say who is not saved. I don't presume to know God's judgement and mercy.

However, please bear in mind that there are many, many Christian groups, and within those groups many different opinions about many things. Some denominations (the Catholic for example) have common or shared positions, but some do not.

If you ask me, I just don't know, but I trust in God's mercy and fairness.
 

Isick

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Jewish people some yes and some no, the ones who beleive that jesus (yeshua) came and died on the cross for there sins and accept him as there savior yes.
No Jew believes that - if they do then they are Christians.

Muslims if they beleive in jesus as well then yes they to shall be saved. For the ones that place another god/deity before christ or with christ when he returns then no.
Muslims believe Jesus lived and was a prophet (he is quoted in the Qur'an), but they believe he did not die on the cross and therefore could not have died for their sins. They believe each man is responsible for his own actions and will be held accountable.

For the ones that place another god/deity before christ or with christ when he returns then no.
When you refer to god/deity does that include the father? IE: when Christ returns and you refuse to bow to him, but instead bow to the Father (the one who sent him) are you still destined to be condemned? Because I know both Jews and Muslim pray to the God of Abraham (Christ's father), but claim that he is One God. Jews say Shema and Muslims say Shahada, both of which refer to God as being One Deity. So does that still count as placing another before Christ?

I just don't see why the Father cannot be an equally valid way in this trouble world, why is the Son the only way?

Thank you for your patience as I question.
 

gumby

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No Jew believes that - if they do then they are Christians.


Muslims believe Jesus lived and was a prophet (he is quoted in the Qur'an), but they believe he did not die on the cross and therefore could not have died for their sins. They believe each man is responsible for his own actions and will be held accountable.


When you refer to god/deity does that include the father? IE: when Christ returns and you refuse to bow to him, but instead bow to the Father (the one who sent him) are you still destined to be condemned? Because I know both Jews and Muslim pray to the God of Abraham (Christ's father), but claim that he is One God. Jews say Shema and Muslims say Shahada, both of which refer to God as being One Deity. So does that still count as placing another before Christ?

I just don't see why the Father cannot be an equally valid way in this trouble world, why is the Son the only way?

Thank you for your patience as I question.

When i say god/ deity i mean false gods and false prophets that are not in the bible, and i never staed that i would refuse to bow to christ. I love christ and you should to :)
 

Isick

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When i say god/ deity i mean false gods and false prophets that are not in the bible, and i never staed that i would refuse to bow to christ. I love christ and you should to :)
Oh sorry, I did not mean "you" as in "you, gumby" I meant the universal "you" as in "a person".

Thank you for clarifying. So Christians, at least some, do believe other devoutly religious people (namely Jews and Muslims) will be saved on the final day of judgment because they believe in the One God, even though they do not believe in His son Jesus.

That kind of raises more questions than answers in my mind as to the relevance of Christ, but I will ask them at a later date; I do not wish to bog you all down with so many questions at once.
 

forgivenWretch

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Oh sorry, I did not mean "you" as in "you, gumby" I meant the universal "you" as in "a person".

Thank you for clarifying. So Christians, at least some, do believe other devoutly religious people (namely Jews and Muslims) will be saved on the final day of judgment because they believe in the One God, even though they do not believe in His son Jesus.

That kind of raises more questions than answers in my mind as to the relevance of Christ, but I will ask them at a later date; I do not wish to bog you all down with so many questions at once.

They will only be saved if they accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. They have a chose to make. Although most people do not want to hear the truth, it is cut and dry, yes or no, Heaven or Hell. If they choose wisely and follow Christ and not the world then yes they will be saved.
 

Nomad

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I just don't see why the Father cannot be an equally valid way in this trouble world, why is the Son the only way?

Because we are born into this world children of wrath by nature. Our sin stands between us and God. There is only one remedy acceptable to God. That is, the perfect sacrifice of the Son of God. There is only one way. Jesus himself said that no one comes to the Father except through him.

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Act 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."


 

Isick

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John 13:16
"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him."

John 13:20
"I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."

Jesus acknowledges he is not the most powerful. If he is just a messenger - a means by which people reach the real God - then why are Jews and Muslims condemned for knowing that God on their own?

To bow to any other than the Father Himself would be a conflict of the first commandment.
Exodus 20:3 - "Do not have any other gods before me."
 

Nomad

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John 13:16
"I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him."

John 13:20
"I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."

Jesus acknowledges he is not the most powerful. If he is just a messenger - a means by which people reach the real God - then why are Jews and Muslims condemned for knowing that God on their own?

Jesus never claimed that he was "the most powerful." I don't know where you got such an idea. The persons of the Trinity are ontologically equal. However, when it comes to the function of each person in redemptive history, the Son voluntarily took on the role of a servant in order to procure salvation. The Father and Son then send the Spirit to apply salvation. The subordination we see here is one of voluntary function and role in the execution of God's plan of redemption. This subordination in theological terms is economical not ontological.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


...then why are Jews and Muslims condemned for knowing that God on their own?

I already answered this in my previous post. You obviously chose to ignore it. I reaffirm that answer. I will give you no other.


To bow to any other than the Father Himself would be a conflict of the first commandment.
Exodus 20:3 - "Do not have any other gods before me."

Not if Jesus is God.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...

Joh 1:14 ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
 

Jimmy Engle

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Any man or woman found not living in Christ on the day of judgment will be found lacking.
It says clearly in John 14:6 - I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Jesus is the only way, everything outside of Jesus is lost and damned. Harsh words I know but it's just the truth. So if you are truly Muslim or truly Jewish or any other religion, and you do not completely submit your life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ then you will be found lacking and on that final day Jesus according to Matthew chapter 7 will declare that he never knew you and will tell you to depart for you lived as though he never gave you a law to obey.
 

Isick

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Not if Jesus is God.
There is but One God, is there not?
Deut 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one."

And how do you reconcile Christ's just judgment of those who do not accept him with the idea of predestination?
Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


That is to say, those who believe were predestined thus and those that do not, likewise, were predestined as such.
 

Nomad

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There is but One God, is there not?
Deut 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one."


Yes. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Bible teaches this explicitly. There are three subsistences within one essence or essential nature. In other words, three persons, one God.


And how do you reconcile Christ's just judgment of those who do not accept him with the idea of predestination?
Romans 8:28 - And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:29 - For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:30 - And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


That is to say, those who believe were predestined thus and those that do not, likewise, were predestined as such.

What about it? What is there to reconcile?

By the way, you're going horribly off-topic. You asked if there are other valid ways to God other than Christ and you have been given the clear Biblical answer--which is no.
 

Isick

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Yes. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Bible teaches this explicitly. There are three subsistences within one essence or essential nature. In other words, three persons, one God.
So when Jews say they have placed their faith in God they are by default accepting Christ? Or when Muslims say they place their faith in God they are also placing their faith in Christ?
Then would you agree all paths are paths to salvation so long as that path is adhered too?


What about it? What is there to reconcile?

By the way, you're going horribly off-topic. You asked if there are other valid ways to God other than Christ and you have been given the clear Biblical answer--which is no.

Not exactly. I am saying that, perhaps those who are fortunate enough to place their faith in Christ do so because they were predestined too, but that because not ALL people were predestined as thus, they too must have some way to be saved and that way could be other Religions.

If God is truly just then all people will have an equal chance to be saved.
If the only way to be saved is through belief in Jesus then all people should have equal opportunity to believe.
That seems easy!
However, it says that only those predestined are "called" and therefore "Justified"
Meaning not everyone has a fair shot at Salvation.
So either...
A ) there is more than just one way in
or
B ) God is not Just.
and if God is not Just, then there is no need for Christ's death on the cross (because it was through his eternal Love that he wanted to save Man, but his eternal Justice required someone to bear the guilt of our sins). But this cannot be the case because we know that Christ DID live a perfect life and that he DID die on the cross.
This means that the only other possibility is A) Christ is one of multiple ways to be saved.



Please take care and note that my questioning is not an attempt to sway you from your beliefs; I am simply seeking truth. The best way for me to understand is to have my questions answered, please be patient with me.
 

Nomad

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So when Jews say they have placed their faith in God they are by default accepting Christ? Or when Muslims say they place their faith in God they are also placing their faith in Christ?

No.


If God is truly just then all people will have an equal chance to be saved.

That may be your opinion, but it's not Biblical.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
 

Isick

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I wish you would explain that "No" a little more in depth, but I understand the concept of the Trinity is hard to explain - it must be because it makes no sense to me (clearly).

That may be your opinion, but it's not Biblical.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

I never thought of it like that, there is no real reason to assume that God would WANT to save all people anymore than there is reason to assume He would NOT WANT to.

I suppose this only begs the question, "Why bother evangelizing?" because those who were made Jewish were made so because God so intended it and to evangelize them otherwise would be contrary to God's will. Though I suppose you could argue that it His will that you evangelize... it's an interesting proposition.

My final contention would have to then be that you (Christians) have no idea who is going to heaven because, biblicaly speaking, God does whatever He wants. And if He wants to keep one Christian out of Heaven for His reasons he may do so because he is the potter. And, likewise, if He wants to let a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu into paradise then He very well may because he is the Molder and he does with the clay as he pleases.

I guess what I am asking is how can you feel sure you are going to Heaven when you openly accept the fact that God is not Just and unpredictable?
 

Nomad

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I wish you would explain that "No" a little more in depth...

Once again, I answered the question posed in your opening post quite clearly. See my first post to you in this thread. Once again, you have chosen to ignore it. "No," once again, means Christ is the only way to salvation. Jesus said so. His Apostles said so. The Scriptures are crystal clear on this. You will get no other answer.


I guess what I am asking is how can you feel sure you are going to Heaven when you openly accept the fact that God is not Just and unpredictable?

Unpredictable? No sir. Those who believe will not perish, but have everlasting life---very predictable. Not just? Ahh yes... the cry of every unrepentant sinner brought before a holy God. There's still time for you Isick. Believe in Christ and live. Reject Him and perish. You want choice? There it is before you. Choose.
 

kestrel

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Once again, I answered the question posed in your opening post quite clearly. See my first post to you in this thread. Once again, you have chosen to ignore it. "No," once again, means Christ is the only way to salvation. Jesus said so. His Apostles said so. The Scriptures are crystal clear on this. You will get no other answer.




Unpredictable? No sir. Those who believe will not perish, but have everlasting life---very predictable. Not just? Ahh yes... the cry of every unrepentant sinner brought before a holy God. There's still time for you Isick. Believe in Christ and live. Reject Him and perish. You want choice? There it is before you. Choose.

That's Nomad's opinion. A common conservative one, but not the only one, though.
 

Isick

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Once again, I answered the question posed in your opening post quite clearly. See my first post to you in this thread. Once again, you have chosen to ignore it. "No," once again, means Christ is the only way to salvation. Jesus said so. His Apostles said so. The Scriptures are crystal clear on this. You will get no other answer.
I understand what you said - you are saying you must place your faith in Christ to be saved. But you ALSO said that Christ was God (IE: Christ = God). My question was, if a Jew or a Muslim places their faith in God, are they not, by transitive property, placing their faith in Christ? Muslims love God, Christ is in God, therefore Muslims love Christ?

See this is the reason I ask the question, I fear that many modern Christians are blaspheming God by putting such an emphasis on Jesus Christ (the Man) and are ignoring the fact that the Trinity is God - all 3. To pray to only part of the Trinity is to create an idol. In every Church you see an image of Christ on the cross, but wait...
Exodus 20:4 - "You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth."
So clearly the Christ on the cross is not the Christ that is of the Trinity (otherwise you are breaking the commandment that forbids creating images of the divine), so then what are prostrating before? A man? If this is so you have created for yourself an Idol; an equally heinous offense.


Unpredictable? No sir. Those who believe will not perish, but have everlasting life---very predictable. Not just? Ahh yes... the cry of every unrepentant sinner brought before a holy God.
If God is Just then he will not punish those men that he predestined not to accept Christ. The molder of clay has every right to create an ugly pot, but he surely cannot be upset that the pot was made as ugly as he intended.

And so if you believe he predestined some to accept Christ and others not to, you must also concede that (so long as God is Just) belief in Christ is not the only way into Heaven for the reason I explained above.

There's still time for you Isick. Believe in Christ and live. Reject Him and perish. You want choice? There it is before you. Choose.
It would be a lot easier to accept Him if you patiently answered my questions. If there is one thing that does not work on me it is force feeding; I live by the lesson taught in Proverbs 14:15
"A fool believes everything, but a cunning man understands his steps."


Kestrel, may I ask what you believe? Do you believe a devout Jew or Muslim (a follower of the God of Abraham) will have a lot in heaven?
 

Nomad

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That's Nomad's opinion. A common conservative one, but not the only one, though.

My opinion? No sir. Absolutely not. It's what Christ and his Apostles taught. Plain, simple, unambiguous and explicit.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Act 4:11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
Act 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."