Judge Not...

Joseph77 · Jul 29, 2020

Scoot said:
Additionally - it seems Joseph77 seems to have the same view as you - but my question then is - how does this scripture apply? If it's not dealing with sleeping with each other before committing to marriage (such as making a conveneant between man and God - and witnessed by man) - because sleeping with each other = marriage - then it seems to appears to annul the scripture. Where would you say that 1 Cor 5:7-10 should apply?

Actually, it there appears to be too much mixed up , and now this too >>

Scoot said:
But as for them - please pray for their salvation. This example I used occurred over a decade ago. The relationship didn't last much more than a year after they got married and then they've split up and have been with with other partners since and have completely walked away from God. Interestingly enough though - both are very happy to talk with us (individually, obviously not together) and hold no grudge for what we did.

(so they continue in more sin, and did not learn from you nor from the church anything ? )
===========================================================

And the overall picture (from reading the posts you had about the church pastor and members)

Scoot said:
there are issues the church should have dealt with that they left untouched, to a point where the church was ignoring even things that the pagans wouldn't do. Is this an example of a church taking "Judge Not" to the point of ignoring and not dealing with sin in the church, and Paul clarifying what it was about.

... shows a much greater problem, than the couple....
A systemic problem , not uncommon at all in churches since the 4th century, and more specifically today, for the last century in the usa, and other places 'modern' having a form of religion, but denying the power (to save, to heal, to change people, the power of God as was once evident in the assembly of Ekklesia, and some times throughout history like in the Waldensians, Anabaptists, Baptists (by another name in the first few centuries, even before catholicsm was 'named' and in power ) ....

So , with a host of problems.... what do you think is Revealed by The Father , through Jesus and Scripture,
as the simple and true solution ?

dev553344 · Jul 29, 2020

Scoot said:
JUDGE NOT

I raise this topic, not looking to preach - but looking for answers, and would love comment on where I am wrong, or what I'm missing, or what I could have done better in the scenario below.

Matt 7:1-5 says

I have heard this verse used many time to say that we shouldn't judge ever / at all, and mind our own business. Likewise, I see in John 8:1-7 that people were quick and willing to Judge:

But Jesus also mentions in John 7:24

And Paul goes on to judge in 1 Cor 5:3-13

We're also told in 2 Jn 1:9-11

Are not these scriptures talking about judging?

So... we have one of these places where the bible appears contradicts itself (at least first).

Now - anyone who knows me knows that I don't believe this is possible - and when I see contradiction I get excited because it means that I am misunderstanding the scriptures, not that the scriptures are wrong and in conflict with each other. That when I have the correct understanding, these scriptures won't conflict - but rather will complement each other - thus giving confidence that I'm understanding them correctly.

Over the years I have come to the following conclusions:

Firstly - Jesus didn't say to not take the spec out of our brothers eye. He told us to deal with the plank in our own eye first - and THEN to take the speck out of our brothers eye.

When it came to the woman caught in adultery - the mob didn't seem to be interested in her best interest - they appeared eager to condemn and stone that woman. It was all about what others are doing wrong, whilst feeling self-righteous ignoring their own sins. It seems the verses about not judging appear more about attitude. ie: I should not be wanting to judge - but to help.

I should be willing to help a brother that I see has an issue - but first I need to be willing to be corrected myself - and deal with my problems as humbly (if not more) than how I expect my brother to accept my help - and likewise I should approach them in the way that I would like to be approached if the shoe was on the other foot.

Galatians 6:1 seems to back this up...

So the pattern I'm seeing here is that first - it's not our role to judge those outside the church. Period. They are lost. Whether they commit a particular sin or not is irrelevant - even if they stop say homosexuality - that will benefit them nothing - they are sinners and individual sin for those who are unsaved is not the issue - and not worth focusing on.

That doesn't mean that we don't identify what's being done as sin - but to judge them is useless (or even more so - damaging).

However - there is a responsibility of us however to judge those in the church - but in a very specific way. The attitude should be of love - one of wanting to see the best for that person - and see them repentant - not one of wanting to see them condemned. Only as a last resort do we go to an action of 'judgement'...

Mat 18:15-17

So what I take away from this is that we will be judged according to the measure that we judge others. If we have a heart to see the best outcome in others - and act accordingly - we will have the same judgement used against us. If we judge with condemnation and pride - the same measure of judgement will be used against us.

And of course we have Paul above saying that someone who calls themselves a brother - who continues to sin willfully - don't associate with such a person to the point of not even eating with them. And that's where things start to get interesting...

But first - I know I have a weakness - that it is easy for me to be judgemental. My father was always quick to judge, and that's a family trait that I have been fighting with for ages.

So as I read these verses I'm aware that my flesh would try and persuade me to read them through a lens of justifying judgement.

But I'm also aware that I'm aware of this - and because of this - I run the risk of taking the other extreme to avoid that - and not judge in a scenario where it is my duty as a loving brother in Christ to say something....

Not judging yields self injury. Judge righteously, and forgive the sinner, but be wise in so doing.

Scoot · Jul 29, 2020

Joseph77 said:
Actually, it there appears to be too much mixed up , and now this too >>

(so they continue in more sin, and did not learn from you nor from the church anything ? )
===========================================================

And the overall picture (from reading the posts you had about the church pastor and members)

... shows a much greater problem, than the couple....
A systemic problem , not uncommon at all in churches since the 4th century, and more specifically today, for the last century in the usa, and other places 'modern' having a form of religion, but denying the power (to save, to heal, to change people, the power of God as was once evident in the assembly of Ekklesia, and some times throughout history like in the Waldensians, Anabaptists, Baptists (by another name in the first few centuries, even before catholicsm was 'named' and in power ) ....

So , with a host of problems.... what do you think is Revealed by The Father , through Jesus and Scripture,
as the simple and true solution ?

I sense that you are frustrated with me as more information has been disclosed over time. If so - maybe we best end our dialog with each other here? (I'm involved on the forum with the goal to build up and learn, not to frustrate and cause problems)

But if I'm wrong sensing that - and you're not frustrated and you're happy to continue conversing - can I please kindly ask that you do it with a mindset - this is an example I'm giving from a point where at the time - we did not have the benefit of hindsight. Please don't be angry because I didn't give you details about what happened afterwards. We didn't have that information then either - so it's irrelevant - not "mixed up". We had no idea that the relationship would fail, or have the benefits of what we now know. We only had the information to work from that we had at that time (which was what had happened up until then).

What happened afterwards is irrelevant to the topic at hand because no one will know at the time what the future holds. I only brought it up now - and it was addressed directly to @Rita because she has so graciously offered to pray for them - in which case I felt it only right to give her the information about where they stand now - not then, so that her prayers are more effective.

If I am wrong and you're not frustrated - and you are willing to continue dialoging... may I go back to the position you've brought forward is that it's not fornication because them having sex consummates marriage - to which I've asked (and remains unanswered) - if I am to take that approach with what happened here - wouldn't that make what they're doing adultery in your view since they had partners previous? And if so - what do you say on how should have we dealt with it?

Likewise - if I take your approach that having sex is consummation of marriage (for a different example - not this) - how are we supposed to take 1 Cor 5:7-10 which deals with fornication? How is fornication even possible? The first person you have sex with is your spouse, and all others afterwards will be affairs / adultery - not fornication wouldn't it?

Or are you saying that 1 Cor 5 only applies to churches with a systemic problem - and that those scriptures are not relevant to us as individual Christians on how to deal with those situations?

These are the same questions I had at that time for those opposing us then too... (How or when do we apply 1 Cor 5) - which none could give us a definitive answer, but rather sidestepped or deflected onto other areas such as 'do not judge' or we weren't being loving if we didn't attend the reception. The narrative was showing love was 'being kind' - not addressing concerns. The concern was more about 'not offending - and keeping them attending church' than it was addressing sin. Unlike you though - they never claimed that sex prior to marriage wasn't fornication - or that we should consider them already married because they've performed the act. Rather they were all claiming that it was sin - and even from that perspective - they couldn't answer our question about what we do with 1 Cor 5 7-10 in our lives except to ignore it.

So , with a host of problems.... what do you think is Revealed by The Father , through Jesus and Scripture, as the simple and true solution ?

At present - for the issues are those mentioned in 1 Cor 5:9-11 - I think the solution is simply to be obedient to all scripture - which is to address our brother or sister in Christ and discuss our concerns in love. If they do not heed, and are unrepentant and to continue, to talk with one or two others. If not - go to the church/elders. If they will not listen to the church - and continue to call themselves a brother or sister (in right standing with God especially as was in this case) - we're to withdraw from them according to the scripture.

If we are wrong with our understanding and being judgmental - lovingly withdrawing from them - but with a pathway to reconciliation is beneficial to them because they are not associating with people who are wrong about their condition and gives us all space to hear from God without being in constant conflict. Alternatively - if we're right in our understanding - we're being obedient to God in the scenario exactly as Paul mentioned.

Hidden In Him · Jul 29, 2020

Rita said:
Just curious, why do we call it ‘ living in sin ‘ if it is the covenant with man that a marriage actually achieves . If it is viewed that the coming together is a covenant between them and God then moving in with one another, is in essence showing people that they are committed to one another.

Well, because two people can live together for the rest of their lives, or they can live together for two months. No legal and binding commitment has been made, which is what a marriage contract is. It is supposed to be until death do you part.

Rita said:
I am not sure where I sit with the marriage service itself, and the biblical aspect. It’s not completely evident how marriage took place in the OT as such, and look how many wives some had, and sometimes they just took another wife !
Why was that never seen as ‘ living in sin ‘ , God never seemed to have a problem with it unless it involved taking another mans wife !

Well, I know it seems like that, but God actually did have a problem with it. But what you have to understand about Old Testament law is that He was trying to govern an entire people in the flesh, and with that you have to make allowances for a very fleshly people lest they abandon you completely.
Jesus said He allowed for divorce because of the hardness of their hearts, but from the beginning it was not so:

1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. 3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of the hardness of your hearts. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” 10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” (Matthew 19:1-12 NIV).

Joseph77 · Jul 29, 2020

Scoot said:
What happened afterwards is irrelevant to the topic at hand because no one will know at the time what the future holds.

It was, and could be relevant, as disclosed in Scripture , perhaps frequently.

The results were expected, given the situation they were in - it happens a lot.

The results also were not such a big surprise, given what you posted about the leaders and members and information about the church - that also is something to be aware of, and hopefully learning from God in Scripture what to do, individually, and also if ever as a member, deacon, elder, or so forth in an assembly (for instance Ephesians instructions, and/or other Epistles, clear instructions .... and warnings, and blessings)...

For instance, maybe so as to recognize as in Corinth why many are sick and dying, and what to do about it, in a forum or assembly.

And note throughout all Scripture, when God says He curses someone, an individual, personally, or a group, or a nation, as written; and the blessing that is usually possible instead of the curse (a blessing and a curse is almost always "paired" (speaking humanly) , in God's Directions ) ..... yet rarely if ever noted or recognized....

Rita · Jul 30, 2020

Hidden In Him said:
Well, because two people can live together for the rest of their lives, or they can live together for two months. No legal and binding commitment has been made, which is what a marriage contract is. It is supposed to be until death do you part.

Well, I know it seems like that, but God actually did have a problem with it. But what you have to understand about Old Testament law is that He was trying to govern an entire people in the flesh, and with that you have to make allowances for a very fleshly people lest they abandon you completely.
Jesus said He allowed for divorce because of the hardness of their hearts, but from the beginning it was not so:

1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the Jordan. 2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there. 3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?” 8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of the hardness of your hearts. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” 10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” (Matthew 19:1-12 NIV).

You have just raised an awareness to something that I had not considered before - when you say ‘ He was trying to govern and entire people in the flesh ‘ I presumed at first you meant God, and thought ‘ no don’t buy that at all ‘ !
Then it occurred to me that you meant Moses - which throws open all the things that are in Leviticus - so those laws were made by Moses , not God - is that what you are saying ?
Also, we are not talking about divorce, we are talking about taking more than one wife - they were not simply discarding the previous wives , but adding more, in some cases they just ‘ took ‘ another wife.
I do understand what you are saying HIH but , for me , it doesn’t explain why God never addresses the issue in the OT , implying that it was not a sin to have more than one wife. Also there are gaps in how it progressed from ‘ consumption ‘ sealing the contract and the ceremonies that we class as marriage today.
Anyhow this is taking this way off topic, so I guess I will just ponder the whole subject and look into the history of marriage x
Rita

Rita · Jul 30, 2020

Scoot said:
Thanks Rita for your post. I appreciate your input and the time you take to write things out clearly and in detail...

Just to touch on one thing...

That was indeed the start of the chapter - but Paul goes on to deal with not only that, but also not having company with fornicators - (but vs 10 clarifies - not fornicators of this world, but in the church (and as you mention, lists a few other issues as well)).

As I read it - I read it that Paul is addressing that there are issues the church should have dealt with that they left untouched, to a point where the church was ignoring even things that the pagans wouldn't do. Is this an example of a church taking "Judge Not" to the point of ignoring and not dealing with sin in the church, and Paul clarifying what it was about.

Thank you so much. It's always more than OK to pray! We'll take all the prayers we can get. But as for them - please pray for their salvation. This example I used occurred over a decade ago. The relationship didn't last much more than a year after they got married and then they've split up and have been with with other partners since and have completely walked away from God. Interestingly enough though - both are very happy to talk with us (individually, obviously not together) and hold no grudge for what we did.

Thanks for your input @bbyrd009.

It wasn't just our understanding. As I mentioned - the church (and pastors as well) had issues with their relationship. The church leaders, elders, etc all saw it as fornication - so it wasn't just 'my' view. The difference here is the response by the pastors, church and us to this.

Additionally - it seems Joseph77 seems to have the same view as you - but my question then is - how does this scripture apply? If it's not dealing with sleeping with each other before committing to marriage (such as making a conveneant between man and God - and witnessed by man) - because sleeping with each other = marriage - then it seems to appears to annul the scripture. Where would you say that 1 Cor 5:7-10 should apply?

Likewise, I'd also like to hear your thoughts on (the same question I asked Jospeh, but I don't recall a answer to it) - if one takes that view - since they both had sexual relationships with other people prior to this - wouldn't that make what they did adultery in this case - because their consummated and married to those previous people instead?

Hi Scoot ,
I don’t think I do agree with Joepth777, I definitely agree that the church should deal with sexual immorality -Not just the more serious situations as mentioned in the passage. my point overall was that the church seems lapse on dealing with all the other things on the list. It either deals with sin and takes it seriously, or it doesn’t - why is it that only certain things are addressed. In other words two people are deemed as ‘ being caught in sin ‘ while potentially the very people sitting in the church judging them could well be people slandering, drinking , being greedy ect ect ( The plank in your own eye comes to mind ) I didn’t mean to imply that it should not have been addressed. Also this is a general observation from my own years within different churches.

I was trying to work out if it was a collective thing to address as a church- but equally that did not mean you didn’t have to address it when you were invited to the wedding or within your own relationship with your friends.
I understood when I became an official member of a congregation ( something else I am not sure about- the ‘ official ‘ part ) that I was agreeing to come under the authority of the leadership, this in essence gave them my permission to address anything if they felt it was wrong. I understand from scripture that first you address the issues privately , then if nothing is resolved it goes further. In my case it would be the leaders collectively meeting , if nothing is resolved, the church meeting of members only. Then a person would be asked to leave if they really did not take the correction. In all my time in congregations there has always been an issue with gossip , of which I joined in on many occasions - I was wrong. There were known gossips within the church - private things brought into the public realm - it was never addressed.
I had a friend who was Publicly ridiculed in a church service once for wearing lipstick - her family were members of the church and were abusing- they sat there agreeing with the minister. Hypocrisy
Another church I was a part of had a known peodophile ( in fact it was my friends uncle ) it was never brought to the attention of the congregation- he was given a responsibility in the Sunday school and use to pick the children ( my children ) up for church. My daughter remembers him sitting her on his knee !!!!!! ( I found out years later - had no idea at the time ) They were allowing him to be placed into temptation. Yet the church prized itself on being ‘ the true church ‘ and had the gall to critique other churches.
Sorry, I have waffled again !! Lol ( really need to stop talking first thing in the morning on my days off ! )
Won’t be talking later as I have a dentist app - I hate dentists !!!!

I am so sorry to hear about what happened to the couple xxx
Rita

Hidden In Him · Jul 30, 2020

Rita said:
You have just raised an awareness to something that I had not considered before - when you say ‘ He was trying to govern and entire people in the flesh ‘ I presumed at first you meant God, and thought ‘ no don’t buy that at all ‘ !
Then it occurred to me that you meant Moses - which throws open all the things that are in Leviticus - so those laws were made by Moses , not God - is that what you are saying ?

No, actually I meant God, LoL. But by "in the flesh" I wasn't talking about God being in the flesh. What I meant was that he was trying to reach an entire people who were largely in the flesh. It would be like if God took over leadership of the entire country of England. Certainly there would be some spiritual ones in the bunch, but there would be a whole bunch of them who would be in the flesh, and resistant to His laws, even if they understood that those who obeyed would be blessed and those who disobeyed would be cursed (Deuteronomy 28). So just as He did with the Jews, He would have to do so again, and make allowances for the people so they didn't reject His lordship altogether.

Rita said:
Also, we are not talking about divorce, we are talking about taking more than one wife - they were not simply discarding the previous wives , but adding more, in some cases they just ‘ took ‘ another wife.
I do understand what you are saying HIH but , for me , it doesn’t explain why God never addresses the issue in the OT , implying that it was not a sin to have more than one wife. Also there are gaps in how it progressed from ‘ consumption ‘ sealing the contract and the ceremonies that we class as marriage today.

Well, see I personally believe that both were addressed by the Lord in His teaching, because His exact words were, "And a man shall leave his mother and father, and cleave to his wife (singular)." I think the original intention of God is one woman with one man, but He again makes allowances.

Rita · Jul 30, 2020

@HIH - thanks for the clarification x
I will have to think on these things - it’s the ‘ making allowances ‘ part that I am having an issue with I think , but maybe it’s something else ......hmmm needs more thought on my part x
Rita

ThePuffyBlob · Jul 30, 2020

Scoot said:
Thank you so much @Funny bird - what an incredible perspective t

that did not came from me naturally but i got it from a preacher so i just say it

Scoot said:
If we were going around trying to find sin in people's lives and point it out - I could see

i could see that i am being hypocrisy and an oppresor

but if you do not point it out does this mean you do not care about what will happened to her/him? this also means you do not love them if you do not care for them

you would just then start relying on God and just pray for them but is faith really enough? what if you end up just like those people in the bible you can help them but you will not help them instead rely on faith the bible says faith is not enough you should help them

but if faith is not enough then you would start to doubt and it will affect your faith in a long run what complexity x.x

Scoot said:
But when you find yourself in the middle of a situation where it at least appears that the word of God is clear on what to do in that situation and you didn't really want to be there - what is one to do?

it still depends on you just like now i am so down i am so guilty of my sins i feel so hopeless and tired very tired and irritated

i keep on ignoring the word of God i am just guilty i'm not saying this not because i am proud but it just the fact should you prefer me to lie instead and say ofcourse i will always follow what the word of God and become holy in the presence of your fellow

Scoot said:
There was another couple that didn't attend either for the same reasons as us (and were honest about it), and then there were a number of people who didn't attend - who made other excuses instead of being open like us.

it would be brought with their conscience and that feels so ... then they would regret and regret maybe just like how i end up doing so it was like a living portable hell every single day so guilty of what you did and you can't back out if you continue being with pride and a mask

and no i will be only fooling myself i feel like crap right now and please stop talking to me with politeness just to show me you are friendly

Scoot · Jul 30, 2020

Hi @Funny bird

Thank you for your reply and your honesty. And whether that came from you, or you're just repeating it - it's still great stuff. And in the end - aren't we all just repeating what God reveals to us (when it's good and wholesome), either through his word, or through someone else?

Funny bird said:
that did not came from me naturally but i got it from a preacher so i just say it i could see that i am being hypocrisy and an oppresor

but if you do not point it out does this mean you do not care about what will happened to her/him? this also means you do not love them if you do not care for them

you would just then start relying on God and just pray for them but is faith really enough? what if you end up just like those people in the bible you can help them but you will not help them instead rely on faith the bible says faith is not enough you should help them

but if faith is not enough then you would start to doubt and it will affect your faith in a long run what complexity x.x

it still depends on you just like now i am so down i am so guilty of my sins i feel so hopeless and tired very tired and irritated

i keep on ignoring the word of God i am just guilty i'm not saying this not because i am proud but it just the fact should you prefer me to lie instead and say ofcourse i will always follow what the word of God and become holy in the presence of your fellow

it would be brought with their conscience and that feels so ... then they would regret and regret maybe just like how i end up doing so it was like a living portable hell every single day so guilty of what you did and you can't back out if you continue being with pride and a mask

and no i will be only fooling myself i feel like crap right now and please stop talking to me with politeness just to show me you are friendly

I am sorry you are feeling that way. I would like to encourage you - I do not believe that God makes people feel like crap - and condemnation comes from the evil one - not from The Holy Spirit.

The enemy wants us to feel condemned, fill us with guilt so that we feel crap or unworthy - and run away from God...

When I'm feeling crap - the last thing I want to do is go to God. I want to drown my feelings in things of this world. Whether that be getting lost in a movie, going for food, or otherwise. Regardless- from that feeling (and the fruit thereof) - I know that this leads to bad fruit.

Rather The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins - which means that we become aware of them, and then run to Him instead...

Just letting you know that I'm praying for you now!

ThePuffyBlob · Jul 30, 2020

Scoot said:
would like to encourage you -

no don't it's my reality and it won't do me any good if you only say any words just to encourage me

Scoot said:
The enemy wants us to feel condemned, fill us with guilt so that we feel crap or unworthy - and run away from God...

but this helps ty

Scoot said:
When I'm feeling crap - the last thing I want to do is go to God.

how am i supposed to do that when i am not a child of God but a child of satan
based on works and heart

Scoot said:
Whether that be getting lost in a movie, going for food, or otherwise.

everything i do that makes me happy eventually makes me even more depressed it was temporary and pointless

i'm really destined to be lonely if i am alone how am i supposed to strive why lonely? try to consider me a mute who can't talk to anyone that's what i am but i am not a mute i can talk but do not because i do not know how to and when i try i feel invisible wether i am in a crowded place or not it was as if i wasn't even there

and i can't even hear the word of God this is why i am not a child of God like you that is also why i feel like i do not want to teach others about the word of God i am not even a child of God who i am to say those words? i am nothing in this lifetime nothing in the next world and i'll probably be tortured endlessly

this is my reality alive but dead

Scoot · Jul 30, 2020

Hi @Funny bird

Please also take what I'm saying with the gentle and kind, with love - but likewise the firm conviction that I have. As per this thread - I do not believe that love is saying kind things and being non-confrontational. Rather I believe true love is stepping in, and confronting when required. So with that spirit and intention I write this post. What I write may be hard to read, and even a bitter pill - but please read it with the love and compassion that I write it in.

However also - I am a fallible man - so please take what I say with caution, and seek scripture to see if what I am saying is true. I pray that God would give you discernment to see truth and to act on truth, and discard the rest...

I have a very strong conviction that depression is very often spiritual. I also believe this is relevant in your case for reasons I'll go into below. Some may disagree with me and that's OK. I've had my personal walk and know what I've experienced - but I'm aware that what I go through doesn't mean someone else's journey will be the same. We all see but dimly, and as different members of one body - we have different senses.

However in saying this - and looking at it from the perspective of a spiritual battle - I believe the enemy has limited access to us - and rather tries to deceive us into doing our own damage. Satan couldn't kill Job - but I'd bet that his desire was for Job to curse God, and then die by having Job killing himself. Satan wants us to do the harm to ourselves that he is unable to do, and is very skilled at deceiving us into doing this. (Yes - even Christians!)

I recall part of the story of the pilgrims progress (brilliant book by John Bunyon - if you haven't read it - it may be of great encouragement) where Christian made a mistake and allowed himself to be captured by the giant in the castle of despair.

The giant was unable to kill him. Power had only been given to the giant to torment and encourage Christian to kill himself.

Likewise - one of Satan's larger weapon against us is lies and deceit. If he can get us believing his lies instead of God's word and then confessing them (which basically is us claiming that what Satan say is true and that God is a liar) - he can start having us go down a track where we are hurting ourselves (and even others too). 1 Peter 5 tells us that Satan is a roaring lion looking for who he can devour. First believing, and then second confessing those lies is a huge tactic of his that many fall into.

With that in mind - my encouragement to you is to first stop believing those lies, and stop repeating and confessing lies, and renounce the lies you have said, and turn to God and ask Him for His forgiveness for believing and confessing Satan's words over Him. You are not a child of Satan. Anyone who is in Christ Jesus is now a Child of God, and your confession needs to be renounced, and you need to start confessing truth (scripture) as opposed to the lies of the enemy.

If you take nothing else away from that - take this.

(But please hear what I say - even though it's confrontational, with the yearning love and compassion I have for what you are going through).

Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your Sins?

Do you believe that He rose again on the 3rd day?

Have you confessed of your sins and repented and turned to Him, and put your trust in Him, believing in Him?

If so - what you have confessed in your previous post is a lie and you need to repent. If you haven't put your faith in Christ - then the first step is to become a Child of God through the wonderful Gospel of Jesus Christ, (but given your Christian faith under your avatar - I suspect you already know this).

The word / scripture is our sword to attack and cut down the lies that the enemy will spread if used correctly. Satan deceives many into not even picking up that sword by not confessing what is in the bible, and even worse, taking up his own filthy weapons of warefare by first believing, and then confessing his lies.

Funny bird said:
everything i do that makes me happy eventually makes me even more depressed it was temporary and pointless

Everything in the world will do that. I have been through a time where I was looking to worldly things to make me happy, or give me relief - and I found exactly the same. True peace only comes through Christ Jesus.

I understand you are lonely. It is a horrible time that many are going through at the moment. The fear you have of being alone, or of COVID, of even of death is not of God, but of the enemy! 2 Tim 1:7 tells us that God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of Power, of Love and a sound mind. Paul was convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 8:38). Oh how I pray that you would have a revelation of how that applies to you, and take that - and realise who you are in Christ Jesus, and take the attack to the enemy head on!

I believe Satan is throwing everything he has at us at the moment in a last desperate attempt because his time is shorter than any of us realise.

I believe your fear needs to be redirected - and have a reverent Holy fear of God - not of anything else. A fear that would have you so convicted that you wouldn't dare say or confess something that disagrees with God's word. That you place what God says above anyone, anything, or any feelings you may be going through. That you would face COVID or death head on before contemplating speaking against God or His word.

In saying this I am not discounting your feelings. What you are feeling is real - and horrible. But please be aware that you do not need to remain there. Pick up the sword - trust what God says about you, not the lies of the devil.

Fight!

You may not feel like it. You may feel weak - but who's report are you going to believe? Let God be true and every man a liar. (Rom 3:4) I shall believe the report of the Lord.

Courage isn't going into battle when you're brave and feeling up to it. Courage is going against your feelings and fighting anyway.

Pray, quote scripture and even consider serious fasting. (I needed to fast in my case to break free). Oppression's are heavy - real heavy but Christ came to set us free from them.

I don't believe God wants to remove us and rescue us out of these trials. I believe that God wants to take us through them - that we grow and learn how to use the weapons of warfare ourselves and become bold and mighty in Him. Many sit there asking for God to help when He already has given us what we need. As God said to Moses "What is in your hand?". I ask you the same thing? Do you have the word of God? Pick it up - and use it.

The kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. (Matt 11:12). As Christians we may be meek and gentle face to face on this earth - but in the spirit we are destined and should be be mighty warriors, pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God (including what you have been falsely confessing), bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ as per 2 Cor 10.

Not I, or anyone else can take you out of where you are. Anything we could do will be temporary (as you have experienced) - except the truth of God's word and the power of God working in you.

I hope you have read this with the love and compassion I have for what you are going through - and not as a hard cold post which can be sometimes seen when we're seeing only letters on a page. If only I could see you face to face so you could see the countenance of which I bring this, but likewise the urgency too. But you don't need me. You have someone far greater. The Holy Spirit is right there - whether you 'feel' Him or not. See through faith, not by sight (or feelings).

May the God of peace give you discernment to hear His voice through what I have written, discard the things that are not from Him or are not applicable, and give you the strength to take the first step forward in taking the battle to the enemy instead of been beaten by them.

bbyrd009 · Jul 31, 2020

Scoot said:
Where would you say that 1 Cor 5:7-10 should apply?

i would apply it how you see fit

Scoot said:
Likewise, I'd also like to hear your thoughts on (the same question I asked Jospeh, but I don't recall a answer to it) - if one takes that view - since they both had sexual relationships with other people prior to this - wouldn't that make what they did adultery in this case - because their consummated and married to those previous people instead?

imo that is their problem too, and i wouldnt make it mine, but i also understand that differing relationships might suggest different options

bbyrd009 · Aug 1, 2020

Rita said:
I definitely agree that the church should deal with sexual immorality -Not just the more serious situations as mentioned in the passage. my point overall was that the church seems lapse on dealing with all the other things on the list. It either deals with sin and takes it seriously, or it doesn’t - why is it that only certain things are addressed. In other words two people are deemed as ‘ being caught in sin ‘ while potentially the very people sitting in the church judging them could well be people slandering, drinking , being greedy ect ect ( The plank in your own eye comes to mind ) I didn’t mean to imply that it should not have been addressed. Also this is a general observation from my own years within different churches.

so, i wasnt going to address that, but see when our prophets have gone a'whoring we will naturally be hyper judgemental i guess about other ppls literal sins, yes. Comes with the territory i guess, evabody in that "church" thinking they are going to heaven after they have literally died, right? So there ya go

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