Salvation Through Baptism ???

Mr C · Jul 29, 2020

So belief is a work one obeys to be saved according to some, but submitting to water immersion is a work which will not save.

I think this argument has many problems.

(Jn 6:28,29)

Joh 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

mailmandan · Jul 29, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
This is a textbook example of why it is virtually impossible to have an intelligent conversation with an anti-Catholic.

BreadOfLife said:
You read MY words – then you add YOUR meaning to them. ONE more time . . .

God gives us the grace to believe – that’s a FREE gift. OUR free will dictates whether or not we are going to cooperate with that grace. Being Baptized is our response to that grace – it is our cooperation with that grace. Like it or not – THAT’S a work, which is an essential element of faith.

It's actually a textbook example of why it's virtually impossible to reason through the Scriptures with a brain washed Roman Catholic. You "re-define" faith to "include" works, which explains why you teach salvation by faith AND WORKS. Man is saved through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Plain and simple.

We don’t

“add” works to faith. Works ARE faith – just as belief is (James 2:14-26, Matt. 25:31-46, Gal. 5-6, 1 Cor. 13:1-13).

That's "adding" works to the definition of faith. So then according to your erroneous doctrine, faith "is" baptism faith "is" multiple acts of obedience faith "is" works. Faith is faith and works are works, yet you take faith AND works, wrap them BOTH up in a package, then simply stamp faith on the package, which explains why Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to Scripture (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

You CANNOT have faith without either one of those elements (James 2:14-26).

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works to evidence his claim. That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

So James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

That’s what Jesus was talking about in Matt. 25:31-46 and Paul in Gal. 5-6 and 1 Cor. 13:1-13.

Faith results in evidential works. We show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. Works are a demonstration of our faith and not the origin of it. In regards to love, We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19) Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

Those with authentic faith have love and faith works through love. (Galatians 5:6) If we have faith, then we have hope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.. (Hebrews 11:1)

1 John 4:7- Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

Paul is using hyperbole in 1 Corinthians 13 to stress the importance of love. Love certainly is the greatest quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" are now seen (Hebrews 11:1) and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) - For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? (Romans 8:24) Love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth. That's what Jesus was talking about and NOT faith "is" works or that we are saved by faith AND WORKS.

Continued..

mailmandan · Jul 29, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
We don’t “automatically” obey God throughout our lives because we are born again.

It's not about automatic, but it's also not about forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God.

We make the decision to cooperate with His grace.

We certainly do. Romans 5:2 - We have access by faith into grace.. Your theory on cooperating with God's grace results in works righteousness and in that case, grace is no longer grace. (Romans 11:6) Seeking salvation by faith AND WORKS is not cooperating with God's grace. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

EVERY verse that says God gives us the strength or the perseverance to endure in faith is CONDITIONAL on the fact that we remain in Him. That’s cooperation . . .

Genuine believers (like the 11 remaining disciples) remain in Him and make believers (like Judas Iscariot) do not remain in him. It never ceases to amaze me how many people in false religions and cults stress remaining in Him (and turn remaining in Him into self preservation and type 2 works salvation) when they were never in Him to begin with.

Calvinists wrongly believe that God creates some of us for salvation - and creates the rest of us just to toss us into Hell. If that’s what YOU believe – then you have completely perverted the Gospel.

I'm not a 5 point Calvinist, so that's not an issue with me. Roman Catholicism wrote the book on perverting the gospel.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

God does NOT coerce us to follow Him – OR to stay with Him. He give us the free will to do so by our own volition.

You over estimate self preservation and underestimate God's preservation. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, (how long is forever?) But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

Only a monster would force His love on his subjects and drag them kicking and screaming into Heaven against their will – while he sends the rest of humanity kicking and screaming into Hell against their will. God is NOT a Calvinist monster.

God does not need to drag those who are truly born of God kicking and screaming into Heaven.

THANK YOU for proving my point.

It's actually you who has continued to prove my point.

Those people were made righteous in Christ by God’s grace – because they COOPERATED with it.

How are we made righteous in Christ by God's grace? Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good - AMP], but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

They didn’t “add” works TO their faith.
The works they did were an essential element OF their faith.

A difference without a distinction. Bottom line. YOU teach salvation by faith (your version of faith) AND WORKS, yet man is saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You teach a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Tong2020 · Jul 29, 2020

kcnalp said:
Yes, I have been studying the Bible over 40 years. I have nearly 40 English Bible translations. "Catholic" is not in any of them that I know of.

Have you looked into all the Catholic Bibles? Did you find a version which have the Catholic Church there?

Tong
R0895

kcnalp · Jul 29, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Have you looked into all the Catholic Bibles? Did you find a version which have the Catholic Church there?

Tong
R0895

No, and I don't plan to. I've talked to enough Catholics to know I'm not interested in their religion.

Tong2020 · Jul 29, 2020

kcnalp said:
No, and I don't plan to. I've talked to enough Catholics to know I'm not interested in their religion.

I was just curious if they have it in their English Bibles and if so, when did they put it there. For it seems to me that they contend that the name Catholic Church is actually in scriptures in the original Greek. And if they believe what they contend, we could expect that in their very first English version of their Bible, it would have Catholic Church there at least in Acts 9:31. On the other hand, not having it there in their English Bibles, only shows, either that they are not too sure about their contention, or it is only just recently that they came up with such contention they thought would give support to the church name Catholic Church.

Tong
R0896

Heart2Soul · Jul 29, 2020

Tong2020 said:
I was just curious if they have it in their English Bibles and if so, when did they put it there. For it seems to me that they contend that the name Catholic Church is actually in scriptures in the original Greek. And if they believe what they contend, we could expect that in their very first English version of their Bible, it would have Catholic Church there at least in Acts 9:31. On the other hand, not having it there in their English Bibles, only shows, either that they are not too sure about their contention, or it is only just recently that they came up with such contention they thought would give support to the church name Catholic Church.

Tong
R0896

Please stay on topic....start a thread about Catholic Bibles or English Translations if you want to continue this discussion.
Thanks.

Marymog · Jul 29, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Right, not an individual Christian, but the church of God. And it does not say, Roman Catholic church, nor it say Catholic Church nor it say Baptist Church nor it say Church of Christ church. It simply is the church, whose head is Jesus Christ, the Lord. In apostolic times, we read about the church, that is at Rome, that is at Corinth, that is at Thessalonica, that is at Macedonia, that is at Jerusalem, that is at Galatia, that is at Ephesus, that is at Philippi, that is at Colosse, and of which Paul even said elsewhere, "Likewise greet the church that is in their house."

Tong
R0893

Good morning Tong and thank you for your articulate, heart felt response.

I am glad to see that we agree that The Church is "not an individual Christian".

Christ’s prayed for unity and in that prayer he prayed “that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me” (John 17:21). The fact is that no matter what one’s definition of “the Church” is, we all know that today Christians are NOT “one” as Christ prayed for.

In the NT times the church that was at Rome and Corinth and Thessalonica and Macedonia and Jerusalem and Galatia and Ephesus and Philippi and at Colosse all taught....or were supposed to teach.... the same doctrine. However, a problem arose. Some were practicing/teaching a different doctrine. So the Council of Jerusalem was called to settle that difference. In that Council they, the church leaders, decreed that Gentile Christians did not have to observe the Mosaic Law of the Jews. They sent Barsabbas and Silas with a letter (Acts 15: 22-23) and they were to tell all the other Christian Churches the decision of The Council by word of mouth. They were fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 2:15 by this word of mouth/letter action. The Church leaders decided for every other Christian what they were to believe/practice and it was good to the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28).

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT: Notice in vs 22 it says "Then the apostles and the elders, with the consent of the whole church....". Was the "whole church" (all the Christians alive at that time) present at that meeting Tongo? No, of course not. So according to Scripture when a decision is made on what all Christians are to believe/practice/teach The Church (church leaders) decide what that doctrine will be.

Scripture tells us to hold onto sound teaching and sound doctrine so that we can refute those who contradict it. Hold onto what was taught to us by word of mouth or by letter. Timothy was to instruct certain people (in Ephesus) not to teach any different doctrine and Scripture tells us how we are not to be tossed about by every wind of doctrine thru trickery, craftiness and deceitful scheming.(Titus 1:9, Titus, 2:1, 1 Timothy 1:3, 2 Timothy 1:13, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Ephesians 4:14). Paul told Timothy what you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others as well (2 Timothy 2:2). That, along with Acts 1:25 and Titus 1:5, is biblical support for Apostolic Succession.

I have found the Church spoken of in Scripture that has Apostolic Succession. It was first called Catholic in the year 107AD by Ignatius and in 155AD by Polycarp who were students of the Apostle John. In the year 170 AD in the Muratorian Fragment The Church was called Catholic. In the year 180 AD Irenaeus (a student of the aforementioned Polycarp) wrote, of that great and illustrious Church founded and organized at Rome by the two glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul!!!

So, in summary, I agree with you that Scripture does not specifically name one current denomination as The Church OR as you put it "the church of God". However, according to Scripture, we are to teach ONE doctrine and that ONE doctrine is to come to us from The Church (Church elders) that have been teaching the same thing for 2,000 years thru Apostolic Succession. That Church, according to your own Christian history, is The Catholic Church that has been anchored in Rome since Peter and Paul were there.

I have Scripture and Christian history to back up what I believe. I am sincerely interested in any Scripture and Christian history to back up what you believe. Your theory that The Church, whose head is Jesus Christ the Lord, is vague. ALL churches claim that. What current Church can document Apostolic Succession?

Sincerely, Mary

If @BreadOfLife @Illuminator @Mr C or @Philip James @Josho has anything to add that I may have left out I would appreciate your input.

Marymog · Jul 29, 2020

Tong2020 said:
As I have noticed, I read about bishops and deacons, elders, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in the church, but how about priests? Are there priest in the church? If so, who are the priests in the church?

Tong
R0893

The English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

Marymog · Jul 29, 2020

Tong2020 said:
Oh, is that so? So why change what is written in scriptures? Is that not forbidden, to tamper with the words of God in scriptures? By the way, was that name given by any of the chosen apostles of Christ? Obviously not. So that, nowhere can we find any of the apostles referring to the church by such name. No inspired chosen apostle of Jesus Christ was instructed to name the church as Catholic Church. So, you can only point to others as have come up with that name and believe that they have the authority to do that and change God's words in scriptures. Now, if there be anything that identifies the church today, it is not by what name someone called it by, but by the spirit, doctrine or teachings and the gospel they preach. As Paul have warned the church in his days saying, "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." Such person and those who congregate with him and believe and preach any other gospel other than what the apostles preached as written and found in scriptures, they are all accursed and so are not among the church, the house/household of God, regardless of what they believe is the name of the church.

Tong
R0894

The word Catholic is derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal" which comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning "on the whole", "according to the whole" or "in general", and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning "about" and ὅλος meaning "whole".

I don't know what you are referring to when you say is it not forbidden to tamper with the words of God in scriptures. I assume you are referring to Revelation 22:18-19? If so, he was speaking about the book of Revelation only. The Church does not "tamper with the word of God". The Church was given the authority by Christ to bind and loosen: "whatever you loosen/bind on earth will be loosened/bound in heaven". Which church do you believe has that authority today?

Mary

JunChosen · Jul 29, 2020

Marymog said:
The Church was given the authority by Christ to bind and loosen: "whatever you loosen/bind on earth will be loosened/bound in heaven". Which church do you believe has that authority today?

Mary

You must be reading the Catholic Bible or the catechism???

My Bible states, "shall having been" bound/loose on earth "shall having been" bound/loosed in heaven. The prior action ,you see, is in heaven!!!

Check the Greek or someone who reads Greek if you like! First time you heard it explained this way?

To God Be The Glory

Candidus · Jul 29, 2020

Marymog said:
The English term “priest” is simply a contraction of the Greek word presbuteros. They have the responsibility of teaching, governing, and providing the sacraments in a given congregation (1 Tim. 5:17; Jas. 5:14–15).

A priest is a mediator between man and God. Notice that the New Testament only gives that operation to Jesus Christ, and "overseer" or "pastor" is the concept of a leader in the Church.

There is no human "office" of priest, pope or nun in all of the New Testament.

Marymog · Jul 29, 2020

JunChosen said:
You must be reading the Catholic Bible or the catechism???

My Bible states, "shall having been" bound/loose on earth "shall having been" bound/loosed in heaven. The prior action ,you see, is in heaven!!!

Check the Greek or someone who reads Greek if you like! First time you heard it explained this way?

To God Be The Glory

Yes, it is the first time I have heard it explained that way. More research to be done by me

kcnalp · Jul 29, 2020

Candidus said:
A priest is a mediator between man and God. Notice that the New Testament only gives that operation to Jesus Christ, and "overseer" or "pastor" is the concept of a leader in the Church.

There is no human "office" of priest, pope or nun in all of the New Testament.

Very well said!

BreadOfLife · Jul 29, 2020

mailmandan said:
It's not about automatic, but it's also not about forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God.

We certainly do. Romans 5:2 - We have access by faith into grace.. Your theory on cooperating with God's grace results in works righteousness and in that case, grace is no longer grace. (Romans 11:6) Seeking salvation by faith AND WORKS is not cooperating with God's grace. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Genuine believers (like the 11 remaining disciples) remain in Him and make believers (like Judas Iscariot) do not remain in him. It never ceases to amaze me how many people in false religions and cults stress remaining in Him (and turn remaining in Him into self preservation and type 2 works salvation) when they were never in Him to begin with.

I'm not a 5 point Calvinist, so that's not an issue with me. Roman Catholicism wrote the book on perverting the gospel.

The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

You over estimate self preservation and underestimate God's preservation. Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, (how long is forever?) But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.

God does not need to drag those who are truly born of God kicking and screaming into Heaven.

It's actually you who has continued to prove my point.

How are we made righteous in Christ by God's grace? Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work [that is, the one who does not try to earn his salvation by doing good - AMP], but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not his works) is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

A difference without a distinction. Bottom line. YOU teach salvation by faith (your version of faith) AND WORKS, yet man is saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You teach a "different" gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

As I stated earlier – it’s virtually impossible to have an intelligent OR honest conversation with an anti-Catholic. You came right out of the gate with your faith AND works nonsense instead of honestly addressing the Catholic position that works are an essential element of faith.

Whether YOU believe that or not is irrelevant – it’s the Catholic position, so at least TRY to address it honestly.

I completely disagree with you on ALL of the Scripture verses I presented, which support the Catholic position.
No honest person who objectively reads passages like James 2:14-26 would come to ANY other conclusion than the fact that James is explain WHAT faith is – not the “after-effects” of it.

The contextual conclusion of ALL of these verses is: Faith = Belief/Trust + Works/Obedience.

You cannot have faith without ALL.

BreadOfLife · Jul 29, 2020

Candidus said:
A priest is a mediator between man and God. Notice that the New Testament only gives that operation to Jesus Christ, and "overseer" or "pastor" is the concept of a leader in the Church.

There is no human "office" of priest, pope or nun in all of the New Testament.

Actually - that's FALSE.

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also THREE levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more perfect than the Old Testament type - without exception.

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood WITHOUT the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the Rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

BreadOfLife · Jul 29, 2020

JunChosen said:
You must be reading the Catholic Bible or the catechism???

My Bible states, "shall having been" bound/loose on earth "shall having been" bound/loosed in heaven. The prior action ,you see, is in heaven!!!

Check the Greek or someone who reads Greek if you like! First time you heard it explained this way?

To God Be The Glory

Ummmm, which translation is that?
The KJV, which is the Gold Standard of Protestant Bibles, renders these verses as:

Matt. 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt. 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

JunChosen · Jul 29, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
Ummmm, which translation is that?
The KJV, which is the Gold Standard of Protestant Bibles, renders these verses as:

Matt. 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt. 18:18
Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Don't take my word for it. Like I said to Marymoog I say also to you, check out the Greek with someone who reads and understands Greek.

To God Be The Glory

Candidus · Jul 29, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
Actually - that's FALSE.

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
- The High Priest
- The Levitical/Ministerial Priesthood
- The rest of the people were a general priesthood of believers.

In the New Testament, there are also THREE levels of Priests:
- Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25)
- The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15)
- The general priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

Just as with all New Testament fulfillments, the fulfillment is always more perfect than the Old Testament type - without exception.

Finally, in the Epistle of Jude, we read the warning about those who would usurp Church Authority by assuming the ministerial priesthood WITHOUT the Church’s consent (Jude 1:11). In this passage he compares them to the Rebellion of Korah and their subsequent punishment (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

Usually, one reads what someone says before coming up with an answer that confirms what they are responding to!

Joseph77 · Jul 29, 2020

JunChosen said:
Don't take my word for it. Like I said to Marymoog I say also to you, check out the Greek with someone who reads and understands Greek.

To God Be The Glory

Unless things changed from the last thousand years, I think they can't do that, they have to accept what the hierarchy says it means.

Salvation Through Baptism ???

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