The Problems With End Times Prophecy

To me, the primary pillar of faith and proof of prophecy is the existence of the nation of Israel.

There are two major themes in the Bible. The first is the genealogy of Jesus, tracing His family tree from Adam through to his birth. Then it all stops. That theme in the Bible is now complete and all genealogical records destroyed with the destruction of the Temple.

The second major theme is the restoration of Israel in the Millenial Kingdom under the One Anointed, the seed of David.

Truth OT said:

So, based on what the Bible describes, I understand "THE LAST DAYS" to be the END OF THE COVENANT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PHYSICAL ISRAEL & GOD culminating with the utter destruction of the temple in a.d. 70.

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A novel disregard of Scripture. God says that his Covenant with Abraham and his seed is forever. When do you figure God decided to renege on his promise?

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee" (Genesis 17:7)

Truth OT said:

Now, please recall what God's messenger told Daniel in chp 9:14 and I've come to help you understand what will happen to your people in the last days, because this is a vision of the future.

... I understand "THE LAST DAYS" to be the END OF THE COVENANT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PHYSICAL ISRAEL & GOD culminating with the utter destruction of the temple in a.d. 70.

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You have NO CLUE. What you quote is NOT Dan.9, but is instead Dan. 10. And the angel's instructions pertain to the outline of world empires leading to 1914 and respective Historical events thereafter, -- not your ancient history. And so you contradict BOTH Scripture and History.

Bobby Jo

Bobby Jo said:

DOGMA? You cite a FALSE HISTOICAL RECORD, and you accuse ME of DOGMA? REALLY?

Perhaps YOUR DOGMA has blinded you to any semblance of TRUTH, but both Scripture and History agree.
Bobby Jo

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But Bobby Jo, it all depends on whether or not we chose our historical proofs carefully enough to actually confirm what the Bible is prophesying, or whether we are clutching at straws to win a perspective in spite of God's word. In other words, is the historical account relevant to the Biblical Prophesied event. In other words, have you found yet the historical evidence to support Jeremiah 50:39 back around 150 BC.

From the recent historical records for the last 100 years, we can find evidence that backs up the Biblical prophecies applicable to the recent and present times.

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones at other peoples glass houses. They may forget that they are not outside of their own house when they begin to thrown their stones at other houses.

Now be nice to those who do not accept your views as being gospel, as they are doing what you are doing in attempting to present what they perceive is gospel.

Now Bobby, please acknowledge that you also contradict both scripture and the historical record like everybody else does, according to you, in your rebuttals against them.

Truth OT said:

Except virtually the entirety of scripture stands against your assertion ...

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You can't even get past simple world History. Show us ONE objective source (not some lies from a commentator) which depicts the Medo/Persian [Achaemenid] Empire under Cyrus the Great as TWO EMPIRES.

Scripture and History AGREE, but liars (and there's no shortage) disagree WITH BOTH. -- Deut. 18:22
Bobby Jo

Truth OT said:

Except virtually the entirety of scripture stands against your assertion. The new testament is full of imminent last day and end of the age proclamations specific to that generation. Jesus is quoted as saying that, Paul reaffirms it, John on Patmos bolsters the claim as well. To place the "last days" into a current context requires one to purposely ignore a chunk of scripture to prop up pre-millenial, dispensationalist dogma. I'm convinced that knowing the scriptures and believing them would create preterists out of any honest believers.

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Which is exactly why I never use prophecy and supposed fulfillments as "proof of God" and/or "proof of Biblical reliability."

But .... do you care to return to the moral-argument debate ?

Tom_in_CA said:

Which is exactly why I never use prophecy and supposed fulfillments as "proof of God" and/or "proof of Biblical reliability." ...

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Deut. 18:22 says that FULFILLMENTS are PROOF. But most people don't have any grasp of Prophetic topics, so they dance around theological and argumentative aspects.

I prefer the TRUTH of Scripture and TRUTH of History, exactly as cited in the Medo/Persian [Achaemenid] HISTORICALLY VERIFIABLE FACTS.
Bobby Jo

Stan B said:

A novel disregard of Scripture. God says that his Covenant with Abraham and his seed is forever. When do you figure God decided to renege on his promise?

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee" (Genesis 17:7)

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Circumcision was an everlasting covenant.

Wasn't it?

According to Genesis, God told Abraham to circumcise himself, his household and his slaves as an everlasting covenant in their flesh. Those who were not circumcised were to be 'cut off' from their people (Genesis 17:10-14).

Mr C said:

Circumcision was an everlasting covenant.

Wasn't it?

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Yes circumcision was part of the Old Covenant with the seed of Abraham.

Stan B said:

Yes circumcision was part of the Old Covenant with the seed of Abraham.

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Will it also last FOREVER?

Mr C said:

Will it also last FOREVER?

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The Bible says it is an everlasting covenant with the seed of Abraham, nevertheless when they see the New Covenant, they may embrace it, and forget about the Old:

"For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.” By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:12

Stan B said:

To me, the primary pillar of faith and proof of prophecy is the existence of the nation of Israel.

There are two major themes in the Bible. The first is the genealogy of Jesus, tracing His family tree from Adam through to his birth. Then it all stops. That theme in the Bible is now complete and all genealogical records destroyed with the destruction of the Temple.

The second major theme is the restoration of Israel in the Millenial Kingdom under the One Anointed, the seed of David.

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Anyone who peddles about the State that is clamed to be called Israel nowadays is of Satan.

Clearly 2000 years ago they who were clearly Israel knew who Jesus Christ was in fact and they who did not understand were led astray by the religion of mans works.

As of the day that Jesus went to Heaven that was when all of true Israel became Christians in fact.

There is no more Jew under the Kingdom of God, as all are as one.

So all outside of the Kingdom of God is under a curse.

You must be born again of the Holy Spirit, as outside of that is not worthy.

The creation of the State that is claiming to be Israel nowadays is totally of mans works, it is a creation of the Rothschild's in fact ! it was this mob of criminals who created it all with all of their Satanist mates. it can all clearly been seen for what it all is, if one bothers to study the history of it's creation, it's all mans works.
Now I would be impressed if the State was truly worthy of the OT but it's not worthy of such at all, they are clearly not into the OT at all, the people could not hold a candle to the following of the OT books.
To be a worthy Jew one must live up to the OT books and follow Holy Moses totally and if not they are not worthy of such at all.
Just as Christians should live up to our Lord and Saviour and follow the NT books and understand the OT is the Blueprint of the NT. so there is not two but it is as one. there is only Jesus Christ in fact and anything outside of that is of Satan.
So anyone claiming to be a Jew is a fool ! because such is lost !
Anyone claiming worship about the Jews today is lost as well, such a one can not be truly born again in fact, because they spite Jesus is the King and that's why you will see such people peddling the State claiming it is Israel and peddling the second coming in the way that they do, with a foolish rapture story and idolising so called Jews. the thing is that they clearly have no true faith in Jesus Christ because they do not know him, they are only religious and religion never saved anyone, only Christ Jesus saves ! you must abide in Jesus Christ totally as outside of that is nonsense. Such morons come to me and insist that I am a Jew because of my sir name are clearly Satanist. they demand put people in boxes, that's typical of mans works madness, for they reject the Holy Spirit is above all.

Stan B said:

The Bible says it is an everlasting covenant with the seed of Abraham, nevertheless when they see the New Covenant, they may embrace it, and forget about the Old:

"For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more.” By speaking of a new covenant, He has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear." Hebrews 8:12

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Rubbish ! forget ? no ! the OT is the Blueprint, nothing is forgotten, the OT and the NT are one in the same, it just evolved to it's real potential when Jesus Christ came, before that it was in it's infants stage like a child, not of age to be worthy of God.
No one comes to the Father but through is only begotten Son, just remember that fact, no Jew no Islam no other religion is worthy of God in fact, one can only come through Jesus Christ. that's the absolute fact ! their is no other way ever.

Reggie Belafonte said:

Rubbish ! forget ? no ! the OT is the Blueprint, nothing is forgotten, the OT and the NT are one in the same, it just evolved to it's real potential when Jesus Christ came, before that it was in it's infants stage like a child, not of age to be worthy of God.
No one comes to the Father but through is only begotten Son, just remember that fact, no Jew no Islam no other religion is worthy of God in fact, one can only come through Jesus Christ. that's the absolute fact ! their is no other way ever.

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(Heb. 7:12 ; 8:6-13 ; 9:15-17 ; 10:9,10) (Rom. 10:4) (2Cor.3) (Eph. 2:14-17) (Col. 2:14-17)

Reggie Belafonte said:

Rubbish ! forget ? no ! the OT is the Blueprint, nothing is forgotten, the OT and the NT are one in the same, it just evolved to it's real potential when Jesus Christ came, before that it was in it's infants stage like a child, not of age to be worthy of God.
No one comes to the Father but through is only begotten Son, just remember that fact, no Jew no Islam no other religion is worthy of God in fact, one can only come through Jesus Christ. that's the absolute fact ! their is no other way ever.

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Not according to (Jer.31:31-34). It says the OT and NT are NOT the same.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Mr C said:

Not according to (Jer.31:31-34). It says the OT and NT are NOT the same.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

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I never said that they were the same, but the whole point was to come to Christ Jesus. so it was finished, Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega ! they were to be one in the same, as all Israel is saved and that means true Israelites in God in fact.
And see in 33 ? yep it was done, they who were his disciples became disciples in Christ.
Jesus Christ is the King of Israel in fact and all who are outside of that are a curse to God.
The people who are claiming to be Jews today are Anti-Christ in fact and so is any other religion and so called Christians are not saved unless they are truly born again of the Holy Spirit in fact and they who are truly water baptised are ok as long as they are not against Jesus Christ they will not go to Hell.
Jesus only forgives such because they have true Christian Grace abiding in them only.

The problem nowadays is that the Satanist are peddling that the Jews are worthy of such, when they are clearly not worthy of God at all, God vomited them out of the Land in fact.

Now if their was a people who truly followed the OT Law and all, that's one thing that I could respect in that they are true to such and I think it's only around 8% that could be regarded as some what worthy of such, but still they are lost as to God, as no one can come to the Father but only through his only begotten Son. but the Satanist are playing that the OT follower has some God given right outside of God ? and not even that, but on merit of being a race ? race ! fact is that the Tribes of Israel was not founded on about ones race at all, but as a people of God ! religious ? one only need read the OT to understand that fact, people were driven out Banished ! because they did not measure up to the religion in fact. and they Got Vomited out because the Christ came in fact and they who did not understand this fact were lead astray by the so called Jews, that Jesus warned about and St Stephen exposed them for in fact, they were leading the majority of Jews astray ! just as it is today by Satanist doing mans works and rejecting God in fact. remember about the narrow gate story, it's a fact ! remember about the Vineyard Story how they killed all of Gods Prophets it's a fact !
No ! mans works never cut it, for if it did you would not need Christ Jesus = our Lord and Saviour. it's not a one off thing ether as the Satanist try to peddle or many a one claiming to be a Christian do. because once truly born again you live it day in day out for the rest of your life, such a one will not go back to the vomit. as they do not need such as them, it's only they who are seeking and not found that look to so called Jews. or the OT to save them, because they can't have any faith that is truly worthy of Jesus Christ, they talk about faith but their faith is as the Bible points out, Oh ye of little faith ? but to be truly born again one has the faith that can move mountains. so why would one look to any anti-Christ for clarity, they are the blind leading the blind just like they were 2000 years ago, what blighted fools.

@Stan B

Truth OT said:

@Bobby Jo it seems that you are more inclined to fight for your dogma as opposed to what the scriptures actually assert.

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It's a simple test. -- Is there a "DIVIDED KINGDOM" after the Roman Empire, which consists of THREE SUPERPOWERS and a UNITED NATIONS:


Are the participants of this "DIVIDED KINGDOM" accurately represented by the LION (U.K.) & EAGLE (U.S.); and the BEAR (Russia); and the LEOPARD, which is actually a TIGER, -- vertically marked versus circularly marked --, (China); and a DREADFUL BEAST (United Nations)?

Or perhaps your (and @Stan B 's) understanding is FALSE dogma and doctrines, -- instead of Scripture and History --, which you reject along with GOD.
Bobby Jo