Did America Have a Christian Founding?

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Yehren

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So the question is; Did America have a christian founding.

The Constitution specifically avoided mention of God, and the Bill of Rights assured that we would not have an officially Christian nation.

To the point that the definition of religion in America was, Christianity.
Voodoo, Hindu, Witchcraft, Budda, and Islam did not qualify.

Well, let's see what the guys who wrote that Amendment say:

The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography

The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?
James Madison, Against Religious Assessments

They say you're wrong. Sorry.
 

Grailhunter

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I know it takes common sense, use both hands.
First off the Constitution was not intended to be a religious document or sermon. And the constitution does not mention God or women. Are you saying they were not thinking of women.
Are you saying they were including witches and voodoo witch doctors and Islam. I am use to you saying the most silly of things so just for the humor of it all let us see it in your words. How many Voodoo churches do you think were there, and what would happen if there were?
Common sense
What do you think they would do with an atheist in Early America, it not pretty.
Are you saying that the early Americans did not believe in something called the Providence of God.
What book do you swear on when you take the stand?
What book does every president have his hand on during in inauguration? From the very first president and on.
By the way review inaugural speeches.
Also the meeting for discussing the Constitution and the meeting for its ratification included an open Bible. So too the signing of the Declaration of Independence.
Why do you think we have "In God We Trust" on our money?
ls it over your head?

The common sense understanding. These people knew of the problems that were caused by church and state being in bed together. No preference of Christian religion by the state. But religion was defined only as Christian.
 
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Yehren

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First off the Constitution was not intended to be a religious document or sermon. And the constitution does not mention God or women. Are you saying they were not thinking of women.

I'm pointing out that neither God nor women were given any special place in our government, since the Constitution mentions neither of them.

Are you saying they were including witches and voodoo witch doctors and Islam.

That was Jefferson's opinion. Madison's too. And they should know the intent; they wrote the amendment.

What do you think they would do with an atheist in Early America, it not pretty.

Thomas Paine? He was honored as a Patriot and an important figure in the American Revolution.

How may Voodoo churches do you think were there, and what would happen if there were?

According to Jefferson and Madison, they'd be accorded the same freedoms everyone else enjoyed.

What book does every president have his hand on during in inauguration?

There's no requirement for any book at all. The Constitution allows presidents to use whatever they like.

What book do you swear on when you take the stand?

You are not required to swear on a Bible. You may merely affirm or use another religious tome, if you like.

Why do you think we have "In God We Trust" on our money?

It's a fairly new thing. It was basically a poke the eye for the Soviets. I remember when this changed.

"In God We Trust", also written as "In God we trust", is the official motto of the United States of America and of the U.S. state of Florida. It was adopted by the U.S. Congress in 1956, supplanting E pluribus unum, in use since the initial 1776 design of the Great Seal of the United States.
In God We Trust - Wikipedia

Like "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, it was a recent change. That one was basically the doing of the Catholic Knights of Columbus.
Generally courts have agreed with Madison that such things are "de minimus violations" and not worth the court's time.

The common sense understanding. These people knew of the problems that were caused by church and state being in bed together. No preference of Christian religion by the state. But religion was defined only as Christian.

Not according to the men who wrote our religious freedoms into the Constitution.

 

Brakelite

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Was there a fundamental unity within the Christian community that was leaving Europe at that time to travel to the New Americas?
Actually yes, there was a fundamental unity among all those Christians escaping the tyranny of European religious oppression... They all agreed that the papacy was the Antichrist.

The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?
James Madison, Against Religious Assessments
Yes, this reveals the brilliance of men like Madison, who saw that they only protection America has against Catholic tyranny as existed in Europe, was to grant true religious liberty. To grant religions the right to exist by government decree was to tolerate Christian sects and time would no doubt have revealed certain sects wanting to remove such toleration "for the common good" or other duplicitous politic. The only safeguard was to state outright that freedom of conscience was God given, not something bestowed upon man as a favor from government. That of course meant great risk because it included freedom even for their enemies. Common law was abrogated in Europe in favor of Divine oversight. In America the Divine right of Kings was removed so they're could be no religious excuse for murder and genocide.
Hence the great antipathy toward the constitution by the Catholic Church through the first 200 years or so of the American experiment.
Today the Catholic Church's only weapon is through the ballot box... Hence the support for open borders to the south and the support for legitimising immigrants to vote by the Catholic dominated Democrats.
 

Yehren

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Thank you for that, just as I expected.
You are all wrong, again


The men who authored the First Amendment say you are are wrong.

The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography

The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?
James Madison, Against Religious Assessments


I'll go with their opinions.
 

Jay Ross

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Yeah, that's how it works. If the state can let anyone's freedoms be abridged, then no one's freedoms are safe.



Not at all.

The issue is that what you call "freedom" is in fact your Liberties within the confines of the Law. You call these liberties "Your Rights," but the fact of the matter is that you have no "rights" under the law, what you have are expressed privileges and responsibilities within the confines of the law that should be complied with..
 

Jay Ross

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Actually yes, there was a fundamental unity among all those Christians escaping the tyranny of European religious oppression... They all agreed that the papacy was the Antichrist.

More of your catholic church bashing, I see.
 

Yehren

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The issue is that what you call "freedom" is in fact your Liberties within the confines of the Law. You call these liberties "Your Rights," but the fact of the matter is that you have no "rights" under the law, what you have are expressed privileges and responsibilities within the confines of the law that should be complied with..

You've still got it wrong. The Founders were entirely aware that the Constitution did not grant rights; it merely observed rights that that all humans have, whether governments observe them or not.
 
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Grailhunter

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The men who authored the First Amendment say you are are wrong.

The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography

The free men of America did not wait till usurped power had strengthened itself by exercise, and entangled the question in precedents. They saw all the consequences in the principle, and they avoided the consequences by denying the principle. We revere this lesson too much soon to forget it. Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?
James Madison, Against Religious Assessments


I'll go with their opinions.

As usual you try to convey a false meaning to suit yourself. If you are going to try to paint Thomas Jefferson and James Madison as atheists, you have failed


Thomas Jefferson was what people call deist, and he was not the only one. Deism is not atheism, and it is a loose term that echoes in many Protestant cessationist denominations. In application it is a personal religious belief in God, that does not have defined terms.

As far a James Madison, here is what he said directly on the topic.
In the twilight of his life, Madison wrote that "belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the World and to the happiness of man, that arguments which enforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources.
 
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Jay Ross

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You've still got it wrong. The Founders were entirely aware that the Constitution did not grant rights; it merely observed rights that that all humans have, whether governments observe them or not.

Have it your way then. I know nothing because I am not an American like you and therefore would have no idea about this subject matter.

Your liberties are a living part of the law, as they are constantly changing and being updated to dot all the "i" and cross all of the "t" with respect to the liberties that you have and your responsibilities within the law while exercising those liberties as things change.

It actually take a lot of laughing matter to get ones head around just this one subject matter of a person's liberties.
 

Grailhunter

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You've still got it wrong. The Founders were entirely aware that the Constitution did not grant rights; it merely observed rights that that all humans have, whether governments observe them or not.
How many ways can you be wrong. I think you work at it. The constitution was the foundation of our rights and an outline of our government. The Bill of Rights clarified what needed to be clarified.
 
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Prayer Warrior

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A History Lesson
The Founding Documents of the United States of America


The Declaration of Independence recognizes that certain rights are endowed by God.... It states:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.​

The first three Articles of The Constitution of the United States enumerate the powers and limits to power of each of the three branches of government. Here's a brief outline of the seven Articles:

Preamble
Article I -- Legislative Branch
Article II -- Executive Branch
Article III -- Judicial Branch
Article IV -- States
Article V -- Amendment Process
Article VI -- Supremacy Clause
Article VII -- Ratification and Signatures


Some of the Framers were concerned that enumerating the rights of the people would serve as a limit to their rights, so they included the Tenth Amendment, which states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

The Bill of Rights (first ten Amendments) was added to the original document and serves as a guarantee of basic rights/freedoms of American citizens. The Preamble to the Bill of Rights states: "THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution."

In a nutshell the First Amendment rights are as follows:
  1. Religion
  2. Speech
  3. Press
  4. Assembly
  5. Petition
The Bill of Rights

First Amendment
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Second Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Third Amendment
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner; nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Fifth Amendment
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself; nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.

Sixth Amendment
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed; which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the assistance of counsel for his defence.

Seventh Amendment
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of common law.

Eighth Amendment
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Ninth Amendment
The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Tenth Amendment
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
 

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rjs330

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How many ways can you be wrong. I think you work at it. The constitution was the foundation of our rights and an outline of our government. The Bill of Rights clarified what needed to be clarified.

I think he's kind of right on this. When the Constitution was written it acknowledged that our rights were granted to us by our Creator not by government.

The Bill of Rights was written specifically to outline rights that were granted in order to further restrict the government. Part of the preamble to the bill of rights says this:
The Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution expressed a desire in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.


So we see that the rights were further defined in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of powers of the government.

However the Constitution itself defines that these rights were given or granted to us by God. They are not expressly given to us by government. They were merely further defined by the Constitution to prevent the government from abuse or misconstruction of the rights. So I also think he's kind of wrong as well if I am understanding him correctly.
 

rjs330

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As far as the OP is concerned no we were not founded as a Christian nation in the sense that we would recognize Christianity as an official religion of the US. Nor would Christianity be used as the "because God said so in the Bible" reason for the creation of laws in Congress.

However, Christianity was also not forbidden in the halls of Congress and in government. Christianity was fully recognized as a belief system that was fully acceptable in the government and could be referred to and accepted. Prayers were allowed and preaching was too. It was recognized as having strong guiding principles within the halls of government and the justice system. But it was not allowed to be the official religious reason we did anything.
 

Enoch111

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The constitution was the foundation of our rights and an outline of our government. The Bill of Rights clarified what needed to be clarified.
True. But the Democrats who are presently in power (along with their treasonous associates and supporters, as well as the enemies of America) are bound and determined that the Constitution will be rendered null and void as soon as they gain power. One of them has publicly said "F*** the Constitution" but they all hold to the same belief. Then all talk about the Constitution will become academic.

America is already facing a constitutional crisis in that the legislative and judicial branches of government have usurped the authority of the administrative branch, while everyone has simply stood by.

The Supreme Court has recently shredded the Constitution in several of its rulings. The next step is for the Democrats to declare that America is now a Socialist/Marxist/Communist state, and the Constitution has been replaced by a Communist Manifesto.
 
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Grailhunter

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I think he's kind of right on this. When the Constitution was written it acknowledged that our rights were granted to us by our Creator not by government.

The Bill of Rights was written specifically to outline rights that were granted in order to further restrict the government. Part of the preamble to the bill of rights says this:
The Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution expressed a desire in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.


So we see that the rights were further defined in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of powers of the government.

However the Constitution itself defines that these rights were given or granted to us by God. They are not expressly given to us by government. They were merely further defined by the Constitution to prevent the government from abuse or misconstruction of the rights. So I also think he's kind of wrong as well if I am understanding him correctly.

I think he's kind of right on this. When the Constitution was written it acknowledged that our rights were granted to us by our Creator not by government.

Oh my! Yes, God given rights….but that does not mean that it is not the Constitution of the United States and as such a legal document that sets the foundation of our rights and structure of our government.

The Bill of Rights was written specifically to outline rights that were granted in order to further restrict the government. Part of the preamble to the bill of rights says this:
The Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution expressed a desire in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
So we see that the rights were further defined in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of powers of the government.

Have you ever looked up what the Bill of Rights are in relation to the Constitution?

However the Constitution itself defines that these rights were given or granted to us by God. They are not expressly given to us by government. They were merely further defined by the Constitution to prevent the government from abuse or misconstruction of the rights. So I also think he's kind of wrong as well if I am understanding him correctly.

Again, God given rights….but that does not mean that it is not the Constitution of the United States and as such a legal document that sets the foundation of our rights and structure of our government.






 
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Yehren

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Oh. Is that what it is? I thought it was history. A part of history it seems certain people would have the rest of us forget or pretend didn't exist.

We should be honest enough to admit that Christians have been less than Christlike in their behavior in the past. Both Catholic and Protestant leaders have committed grave sins against other Christians with whom they disagreed.
 

Yehren

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I think he's kind of right on this. When the Constitution was written it acknowledged that our rights were granted to us by our Creator not by government.

No. It does not mention a Creator. But the founders did believe that God granted rights to humans and governments merely acknowledge these. How do we know this, if it's not in the Constitution? Because it's in the Declaration of Independence. The founders did not want it in our laws, but they generally believed in a Creator from whom all rights are derived.