Sin

marks · Aug 4, 2020

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

We've been discussing sin.

What is sin, and what is sin in the Christian?

We know that sin is the transgression of the Law. But then, gentiles never were under the Law. And Christians aren't under the Law, no matter what nationality they are.

Sin . . . a "miss". Remember Battleship? "C . . . 4" "You sunk my battleship!" Sin is when there's no ship at C-4. Miss!

All that falls short of God's glory. Everything! All moments in our lives where we do not act and think as God Himself. He is the standard, and either we measure up to Him or we don't.

So . . . do we?

Is there anyone here that does not sin?

Let me ask this another way . . .

Is there anyone here who ALWAYS acts with love and patience and kindness and gentleness and faithfulness and, well, we can stop there for the moment.

Because That's sin! Not just disobedience to 613 various laws. Of which you are guilty of all if you break even one . . . but hey, that's a pretty loose standard.

Paul who called himself the foremost sinner, he also said that according to the Law he was blameless. Blameless according to the Law, yet the chief of sinners! Wrap your mind around that.

Here's a question . . . is it sin to be frustrated? To be dejected? God commands us - Commands! - to rejoice always. If you are not rejoicing right now, are you in violation of God's command?

And the examples of this are many. God tells us that love is patience. Ever lose your patience? Another command . . . Humble yourself under the might hand of God. Ever feel superior?

I have a feeling that those who say they never commit sins may not be defining sin Biblically.

Much love!

marks · Aug 4, 2020

Isaiah 59
1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Do our sins as Christians separate us from God?

Because if they do, I think we're all in a lot of trouble. See Post #1 regarding what sin is.

And be content with such things as you have . . . have you ever wanted something that you didn't have access to? That goes against God's command.

Do you have something that someone else needs, and you could give it to them, and you don't?

Have you every just gotten so fed up you've said To Heck with it? Love suffers long!

Love! Love is the key, God IS love. If your actions are EVER less than love for others, and love for God . . . Hm. Love for God.

Thou shalt love the LORD with all thy heart and soul and mind and strength. Now, did God just mean that occassionally? When it comes to mind? When I have that "feeling"?

Or do we all fall short of His glory?

Much love!

Candidus · Aug 4, 2020

marks said:
All that falls short of God's glory. Everything! All moments in our lives where we do not act and think as God Himself. He is the standard, and either we measure up to Him or we don't.

So . . . do we?

Is there anyone here that does not sin?

That is not the standard. God never expects us to be Him.

My next breath is not as perfect as God... I sinned? I don't know everything and err in a decision... that's sin?

To make that which is not sin, to be sin, is to make everything sin.

Candidus · Aug 4, 2020

marks said:
Isaiah 59
1 Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Do our sins as Christians separate us from God?

Yes!

Sophistry can try to talk around it, but God has never amended that the wages of sin is death.

marks · Aug 4, 2020

Candidus said:
That is not the standard. God never expects us to be Him.

Not to be Him, and that's not what I said. But to measure up to Him.

All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.

We have two commandments from Jesus specifically, to trust in Him, and to love each other.

Think about this a moment . . . just looking at "love each other". Do you mentally add qualifiers? Like, Love each other most of the time? Love each other somewhat? Or is God's command that we are to love fully, and all the time?

What should we do?

Much love!

marks · Aug 4, 2020

Candidus said:
Yes!

Sophistry can try to talk around it, but God has never amended that the wages of sin is death.

Then how can you avoid death? I don't think there's a single person here who loves competely all the time. To know to do good and not to do it, that's sin. God commands us to love, so I think it's safe to say that we know that loving others is a good thing we are to do. So not loving is sin. Ever not love someone?

Much love!

Candidus · Aug 4, 2020

marks said:
Not to be Him, and that's not what I said. But to measure up to Him.

All have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.

We have two commandments from Jesus specifically, to trust in Him, and to love each other.

Think about this a moment . . . just looking at "love each other". Do you mentally add qualifiers? Like, Love each other most of the time? Love each other somewhat? Or is God's command that we are to love fully, and all the time?

What should we do?

Much love!

"This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:17-18

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." 1 Jn. 2:5-6.

"For we are glad when we are weak and ye are strong. And this also we wish: even your perfection." 2 Cor. 13:9

marks · Aug 4, 2020

Candidus said:
"This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:17-18

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

"Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Romans 13:10

"But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." 1 Jn. 2:5-6.

"For we are glad when we are weak and ye are strong. And this also we wish: even your perfection." 2 Cor. 13:9

So what then do you think? Are we to love completely, and all the time? Or is a little unlovingness OK?

marks · Aug 4, 2020

Candidus said:
"This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:17-18

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matthew 5:48

This is another great example. Fear is not from God. If we are afraid, is that from the Holy Spirit? Our new creation? Or the old man?

That's the thing, you know. Whether what we are doing or thinking or even feeling, does it come from the new man, or the old man?

All that is from the old man is sin. All that is from the new man is righteousness. The old man cannot do righteousness. The new man cannot sin.

Much love!

Enoch111 · Aug 4, 2020

marks said:
We've been discussing sin.

Shouldn't you be discussing righteousness? Discussing sin is for sinners, but it is not exactly a sin to discuss sin.

Christians should follow the K.I.S.S. principle. Anything that is CONTRARY to the commandments and character of God and Christ is sin.

marks · Aug 4, 2020

Enoch111 said:
Shouldn't you be discussing righteousness?

There are some terrible misunderstandings regarding sin. The Bible devotes a fair amount of space discussing sin.

Yes, we should be focused on righteousness, and more so, focused on Jesus. For those who don't think they have true real righteousness, I'd like to get that cleared up.

And the real reason for this thread, albeit indirectly, is to learn about what the righteousness of God is.

Much love!

Waiting on him · Aug 5, 2020

Hopefully once all these temporary things in this world have lost there appeal Satan will have nothing left to negotiate with.

marks · Aug 5, 2020

I had a bad couple of days last weekend. 3 times I went off on my poor sweet and wonderful wife! Stupid things!

I don't believe in excuses, but I like to know reasons. It helps me grow in self-control. I hadn't realized how far into depression I was slipping. I think back on last week, and realize I was on a rollercoaster. I have clinical depression, a name I don't think accurately communicates what's happening unless you know about the disorder. It's not about being sad.

Clinical Depression is about depressed levels of neurotransmitters and the like, dopamine, seratonin, endorphins, the like. I've learned it's about "chemical resources". Stress uses up resources. Sleep replenishes them. At least to the degree the brain is capable of.

Sometimes it's best for me to just stay in my room and chill until I can get a better handle on myself. Those are generally really good times with God.

I didn't see it coming, and when it came, my mind just went way off track. I'm yelling at her, accusing her, I look back, it's hard to believe! Over kitchen work, nothing important, the next thing, about a container of salt for God's sake! Literally going off on her over nothing!

I finally realized what was happening, and got a grip. It's literally a mental illness. My brain has some problems, and I don't get enough of the stuff that makes it work right. Because my flesh has been corrupted.

Without the correct brain chemistry, all sorts of things can go wrong. In my case it was a matter of emotional control. My emotional control mechanism was malfunctioning, and all this hypercharged emotional energy was there. It's got a lot to do with the how the hypothalamus takes those horrible childhood memories and puts them there, where memories don't normally go, and it's underdeveloped anyway, and between these two factors, it can't keep up with normal life. OK, that's a massive oversimplification, but it's something like that.

Now, what I did was sin. There are no two ways about it, not to me. I sinned against God, and against my wife. Well, that's not actually true, though, according to the Bible. It is no longer I that sin, but sin that lives in me.

My broken flesh produced a twisted view of things in my mind, and produced a twisted solution, and all the twisted energy just popped the cork on the bottle, and came spewing out.

Isn't that what all sin is? The corruption of the flesh welling up with its own brand of living death?

Much love!

CadyandZoe · Aug 5, 2020

marks said:
I had a bad couple of days last weekend. 3 times I went off on my poor sweet and wonderful wife! Stupid things!

I don't believe in excuses, but I like to know reasons. It helps me grow in self-control. I hadn't realized how far into depression I was slipping. I think back on last week, and realize I was on a rollercoaster. I have clinical depression, a name I don't think accurately communicates what's happening unless you know about the disorder. It's not about being sad.

Clinical Depression is about depressed levels of neurotransmitters and the like, dopamine, seratonin, endorphins, the like. I've learned it's about "chemical resources". Stress uses up resources. Sleep replenishes them. At least to the degree the brain is capable of.

Sometimes it's best for me to just stay in my room and chill until I can get a better handle on myself. Those are generally really good times with God.

I didn't see it coming, and when it came, my mind just went way off track. I'm yelling at her, accusing her, I look back, it's hard to believe! Over kitchen work, nothing important, the next thing, about a container of salt for God's sake! Literally going off on her over nothing!

I finally realized what was happening, and got a grip. It's literally a mental illness. My brain has some problems, and I don't get enough of the stuff that makes it work right. Because my flesh has been corrupted.

Without the correct brain chemistry, all sorts of things can go wrong. In my case it was a matter of emotional control. My emotional control mechanism was malfunctioning, and all this hypercharged emotional energy was there. It's got a lot to do with the how the hypothalamus takes those horrible childhood memories and puts them there, where memories don't normally go, and it's underdeveloped anyway, and between these two factors, it can't keep up with normal life. OK, that's a massive oversimplification, but it's something like that.

Now, what I did was sin. There are no two ways about it, not to me. I sinned against God, and against my wife. Well, that's not actually true, though, according to the Bible. It is no longer I that sin, but sin that lives in me.

My broken flesh produced a twisted view of things in my mind, and produced a twisted solution, and all the twisted energy just popped the cork on the bottle, and came spewing out.

Isn't that what all sin is? The corruption of the flesh welling up with its own brand of living death?

Much love!

Yeah, sin comes as naturally as breathing. It takes special effort to do the right thing, and special training to know what is the right thing. In the next age, the reverse will be true. Doing the right thing will come as naturally as breathing.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

marks · Aug 6, 2020

That which is not of faith is sin.

Do all have the same faith regarding this? Do all believe exactly the same regarding what is and isn't sin?

The Biblical example, food offered to idols, one of the most delicious meals I can remember having was decades ago, before I was a Christian. I'd been picked up hitchhiking by a Hare Krishna group, and they invited me to feast with them as it was their feasting day. It was amazing food! I've never eaten these things before or since.

They showed me around their place, including their "temple", more a meeting hall, but for them, well, their "gods", 3 of them, stook in nooks at one end, with their flowers and fruit offerings, and incence, you know. And I watched as they dipped small portions from each serving vat, and brought them to offere to their gods. Then they returned the food to be mixed back in, so that we were all sharing the same food that was offered to their idols.

Paul's words, we know an idol is nothing, well! That day, there was a brush fire, and when it climbed the nearby hill, coming our way, the forestry service evacuated us. That meant I got a ride all the way to Berkeley, since that was the nearest temple that could take them in. Before they left, as we were all getting organized, I overheard, and watched, as a group of guys very carefully took their gods and buried them in the field so they wouldn't get burned up if the fire actually came through.

Hm!

A god you have to bury in the ground to protect! That certainly is no god at all!

I'd love to have some of that food again some day! So good! And if I had the opportunity, I would! In a heartbeat! Sacrificed to idols, not sacrificed, I don't care, the food is the same.

Unless, that is, they know I'm a Christian, and they know that I know the food was offered to idols. In that case, I'd pass.

It's not the eating of the offered food that is sin. It's not about the list of do's and don't. Our do's and don't go so much deeper than you can put on a list. Our do's and don't are between God and us, and my do's and don'ts won't always be the same as yours, and mine may be different from one day to the next.

Not because sin is relative, or that the rules change. But because sin in the Christian is not about behavior, or thought, or feeling, it's about the source. Where does it come from?

Eat, don't eat, but, am I acting in love? Or am I willing to risk giving the wrong idea so I can indulge in those sweet rice balls that were Oh So Good!

Much love!

amadeus · Aug 6, 2020

@marks
In the Old Testament under the law given to Moses, the sins for which a particular animal sacrifice were required were sins of ignorance. That is, they were sins committed in error or by accident or by oversight, or lack of knowledge, etc.

Sins that were committed premeditatedly, usually, if not always, carried the punishment of death!

Jesus clarified the situation somewhat by allowing mercy to enter into the equation... and something else!

"They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" John 8:4-5

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." John 8:7

marks · Aug 6, 2020

amadeus said:
Sins that were committed premeditatedly, usually, if not always, carried the punishment of death!

Hi amadeus,

On this part . . .

Exodus 22:1 "If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep."

This would be an example of a willful, intentional, knowing sin committed, where the requirement is restoration with a fine.

Here, no punishment is given for man to carry out, only that God would do so:

Exodus 22.
22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

And actually there are a number of sins that you'd have to intend to commit that don't carry the death sentence, that is, in the Law of Moses. Of course God will require it of us.

None of us are without sin. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory! And none of us are qualified judges of ourselves or others. So no one should be throwing stones!

Much love!

amadeus · Aug 6, 2020

marks said:
Hi amadeus,

On this part . . .

Exodus 22:1 "If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep."

This would be an example of a willful, intentional, knowing sin committed, where the requirement is restoration with a fine.

Here, no punishment is given for man to carry out, only that God would do so:

Exodus 22.
22 Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child.
23 If thou afflict them in any wise, and they cry at all unto me, I will surely hear their cry;
24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

And actually there are a number of sins that you'd have to intend to commit that don't carry the death sentence, that is, in the Law of Moses. Of course God will require it of us.

None of us are without sin. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory! And none of us are qualified judges of ourselves or others. So no one should be throwing stones!

Much love!

Consider this:

"And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him." Num 15:27-31

As to throwing stones, unless really directed by God via the Holy Ghost, we need to throw any necessary stones at ourselves. That is me at me! We, each of us, need to kill the beast in us so that there is no more death in us, but only Life. That is what Jesus brought!

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

quietthinker · Aug 6, 2020

marks said:
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

We've been discussing sin.

What is sin, and what is sin in the Christian?

We know that sin is the transgression of the Law. But then, gentiles never were under the Law. And Christians aren't under the Law, no matter what nationality they are.

Sin . . . a "miss". Remember Battleship? "C . . . 4" "You sunk my battleship!" Sin is when there's no ship at C-4. Miss!

All that falls short of God's glory. Everything! All moments in our lives where we do not act and think as God Himself. He is the standard, and either we measure up to Him or we don't.

So . . . do we?

Is there anyone here that does not sin?

Let me ask this another way . . .

Is there anyone here who ALWAYS acts with love and patience and kindness and gentleness and faithfulness and, well, we can stop there for the moment.

Because That's sin! Not just disobedience to 613 various laws. Of which you are guilty of all if you break even one . . . but hey, that's a pretty loose standard.

Paul who called himself the foremost sinner, he also said that according to the Law he was blameless. Blameless according to the Law, yet the chief of sinners! Wrap your mind around that.

Here's a question . . . is it sin to be frustrated? To be dejected? God commands us - Commands! - to rejoice always. If you are not rejoicing right now, are you in violation of God's command?

And the examples of this are many. God tells us that love is patience. Ever lose your patience? Another command . . . Humble yourself under the might hand of God. Ever feel superior?

I have a feeling that those who say they never commit sins may not be defining sin Biblically.

Much love!

In a nutshell, sin is anything dysfunctional.....from a minor infraction of thought to overt rebellion. Sin has a birth place, a maturity and when fully developed, destroys not only what it comes in contact with but its instigator as well.

Sin is an offence so heinous to eradicate its consequences cost the life of the life giver. This gift given freely, angels desire to look into and dwell upon.....it behoves us poor miserable sin steeped mortals to plead with our Father to open our eyes so the enticements to its seductive charms do not overwhelm us and a love for righteousness illuminates its rightful character.

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