Salvation An Hierarchy ? Or The Same For All ?

musicworld said:

Hi

With regard to salvation does hierarchy come in to this? Ex, Will all those that are to be saved be given different levels of eternal life/salvation? An example would be that on this earth GOD chooses who he wants and where he wants them, Ex. Artists, Actor’s Leaders, Kings etc, as such all live a different quality of lifestyle due to their position, will it be the same with salvation that is given? Or will salvation that is given be the same for all?

Click to expand...

............................

My understanding is that there will be an earthly existence, a Holy City existence, and a heavenly existence.
For the Christian, as Paul explains, after the meeting with Christ at the "Bema"; salvation is intact but rewards vary depending on actions and service in life.
After the "new heaven and new earth" event, changes to this take place, of which it is difficult to be precise.

do you think we will always have things to evolve to, or allways be able to obtain rewards..with out been evious or any other human feeling on the issue..of course we will be more then human at that time..

musicworld said:

.

Meaning as much as we do GODS will on earth is as much as he will reward us in heaven?

Click to expand...

bullfighter said:

do you think we will always have things to evolve to,

or allways be able to obtain rewards..

Click to expand...

with out been evious or any other human feeling on the issue..of course we will be more then human at that time..

Click to expand...

In order to understand the rewards given @ the time of the
First Resurrection, we must first comprehend the feast days
and their purpose.

Many Christians will be like the five foolish virgins, who lacked
sufficient oil in their lamps to attend the wedding at the Feast
of Tabernacles (Matt. 25:1-13). At the Feast of Trumpets, the
"shout" will be made, " Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to
meet him." But only the overcomers will be qualified to actually
meet Him, even though all of them (believers) were waiting
expectantly for Him.

Yet all is not lost. Only the greatest reward will be lost, which
has to do with authority and reigning with Him. This is a reward
that goes beyond salvation itself. All of the believers will be
saved, but not all will rule the nations with Christ. Further, they
will have to wait for another thousand years to receive their
immortal bodies.

Though life spans will be increased to the point where men
will be considered young if they die at 100 years old (Is. 65:20),
they will not yet be immortal in the Tabernacles Age to come.
They will not yet be clothed with that tabernacle from heaven
(2 Cor. 5:1-4). They will not yet be ready or prepared to
experience the Feast of Tabernacles, because they had made
no preparation for it during their allotted time on earth.

They will surely be saved, but they will not receive the "better
resurrection" (Heb. 11:35) of the overcomers. It is for this
reason that Paul disciplined himself, so that in the end, he
would not be disqualified (1 Cor. 9:27). Paul did not doubt his
salvation, but he remained unsure of being qualified as an
overcomer. Only at the end of his life did he know that he had
endured to the end and would receive the "crown of
righteousness" (2 Tim. 4:7, 8).

Many have wrongly interpreted Paul's misgivings to mean
that he was unsure of his salvation. Such teaching produced
a wave of uncertainty and fear in the Church, which was then
used to put men into the bondage of works. This fear was
used by unscrupulous Church leaders to motivate men to
give more money to the Church as proof of their sincerity.

But the truth sets men free. When Christians learn the
revelation of the feast days, they can then easily see the
difference between a Passover believer who is justified by
faith, a Pentecostal believer who is sanctified by the Spirit,
and a Tabernacles believer who will be glorified to reign
with Him.

This is the path toward the full salvation of spirit, soul, and
body (1 Thess. 5:23). Passover saves your spirit; Pentecost
saves your soul; and Tabernacles saves your body. We call
it Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification (or the
redemption of your body—Rom. 8:23).

Of course, understand that the glorified body will not be like
the present body with its limitations. Those who fulfill
Tabernacles will have a body like that of Jesus after His
resurrection. Because He had authority in both heaven and
earth (Matt. 28:18), He was able to move with ease in both
realms.

It is sufficient for now to understand the Feast of Trumpets
and its relationship to the Day of Atonement and the Days
of Awe. Meanwhile, I advise all believers to start purchasing
your oil today. Do not wait for the Feast of Trumpets, for that
will be too late.


Logabe

Hello musicworld

From the previous responses, I take it that your question has to do with how things will be in heaven, rather than who will be aloud to get saved.

Heaven will be very interesting.
Because there will be several groups in heaven, and indeed each will have differing positions.

At the top, will be “The Church”(The bride of Christ).
We will be ruling and reigning with Christ for ever and ever.

But there will also those who will be saved during the 7 year tribulation period:
They are promised to rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years.
(During the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ.)

And there are also the Old Testament saints.
They will be servants in heaven.(not slaves), but the Bible says “servants”!

Another group would be babies.
Every baby that dies before they reach the age of accountability, will go to heaven, yet they will not be part of the Body of Christ, nor a saint.
But because of their innocence, they will go to heaven.

There will also be angles in heaven.


It is going to be great.

musicworld said:

Hi

With regard to salvation does hierarchy come in to this? Ex, Will all those that are to be saved be given different levels of eternal life/salvation? An example would be that on this earth GOD chooses who he wants and where he wants them, Ex. Artists, Actor’s Leaders, Kings etc, as such all live a different quality of lifestyle due to their position, will it be the same with salvation that is given? Or will salvation that is given be the same for all?

Click to expand...

It is good just to think about it as being “great”. OK, please think about it. If Paul has a big old house up there would he invite me over to sit in the best seat and real be a good host and wait on me hand and foot? That is “Godly type Love”! The more Love you have the more you want and will serve others! They may have a huge crown of Love, but why would I be jealous of that, since that just means they are greater servants and wanting to serve me more than I want to serve them?
The only ones really needing serving in heaven will be those that never had a chance to accept Godly type Love while on earth. They have a strong wonderful child to parent love but not Godly type Love so we will serve them.

lloydnook said:

............................

My understanding is that there will be an earthly existence, a Holy City existence, and a heavenly existence.
For the Christian, as Paul explains, after the meeting with Christ at the "Bema"; salvation is intact but rewards vary depending on actions and service in life.
After the "new heaven and new earth" event, changes to this take place, of which it is difficult to be precise.

Click to expand...

I applaud you, lloynook, for your accurate depiction of what the Scriptures plainly teach. It is a shame that there are so few who are willing to take the time needed to know their allotment in Christ as revealed in the word of God. It is not hidden, but it is detailed by Paul, the apostle God commissioned for us, the gentiles. It is not found in the Hebrew letters of the NT. John the revelator expounds on that portion of God's Kingdom which pertains to the Son of David and His return for rule and regency for a thousand years with the Jews. But other than the Lord's statements to the lost sheep of the house of Israel while on earth, before the mystery of a joint-body was revealed in accordance with Paul's Gospel, no other writer in the Book says anything. Why should they, since their Kingdom is one of covenant promises based on earthly commitments to the patriarchs and prophets that Yahweh will never renege on in a billion years. They will one day rule over the nations, as the "Book of Revelation" so clearly describes.

We, who are Christ's at His coming, will be changed in the twinkle of an eye, putting on deathlessness, and begin to reign with Him while Israel and the Kingdom of God on earth begins. And then our work for the Lord will only become more glorious and powerful than it ever could be here on earth. To rule and reign with Christ in the Heavens, reconciling principalities and dominions and the spiritual forces that tormented us and mankind. This will be a time for minisitry, not relaxation! It will be a time of power and light and life as glorified new creations in Christ impossible to imagine, but it is our expectation in Him.

It is only through knowlege and grace that these things are apprehended, and there is much the Adversary has been allowed to do to obscure the truth. May God grant us the mercy to glorify Him in our pursuit of Him and His Son.

fivesense

musicworld said:

Hi

With regard to salvation does hierarchy come in to this? Ex, Will all those that are to be saved be given different levels of eternal life/salvation? An example would be that on this earth GOD chooses who he wants and where he wants them, Ex. Artists, Actor’s Leaders, Kings etc, as such all live a different quality of lifestyle due to their position, will it be the same with salvation that is given? Or will salvation that is given be the same for all?

Click to expand...

I think it is a fairly level playing field as far as salvation is concerned. One person cannot be more saved than another.

Variables will be at the judgment seat of Christ where he rewards according to whether we have done lots or done little (while down here).

Some will have mansions , some will have shacks. So yes , I think there will be some hierarchy in heaven for us. The bible hints at it fairly strongly.

Most likely rewards will be based on the works we do while down here. Works are very important (as far as rewards in heaven) but works do not get us to heaven. Some people get confused between the two.

Best regards
Martin W.

logabe said:

In order to understand the rewards given @ the time of the
First Resurrection, we must first comprehend the feast days
and their purpose.

Many Christians will be like the five foolish virgins, who lacked
sufficient oil in their lamps to attend the wedding at the Feast
of Tabernacles (Matt. 25:1-13). At the Feast of Trumpets, the
"shout" will be made, " Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to
meet him." But only the overcomers will be qualified to actually
meet Him, even though all of them (believers) were waiting
expectantly for Him.

Yet all is not lost. Only the greatest reward will be lost, which
has to do with authority and reigning with Him. This is a reward
that goes beyond salvation itself. All of the believers will be
saved, but not all will rule the nations with Christ. Further, they
will have to wait for another thousand years to receive their
immortal bodies.

Though life spans will be increased to the point where men
will be considered young if they die at 100 years old (Is. 65:20),
they will not yet be immortal in the Tabernacles Age to come.
They will not yet be clothed with that tabernacle from heaven
(2 Cor. 5:1-4). They will not yet be ready or prepared to
experience the Feast of Tabernacles, because they had made
no preparation for it during their allotted time on earth.

They will surely be saved, but they will not receive the "better
resurrection" (Heb. 11:35) of the overcomers. It is for this
reason that Paul disciplined himself, so that in the end, he
would not be disqualified (1 Cor. 9:27). Paul did not doubt his
salvation, but he remained unsure of being qualified as an
overcomer. Only at the end of his life did he know that he had
endured to the end and would receive the "crown of
righteousness" (2 Tim. 4:7, 8).

Many have wrongly interpreted Paul's misgivings to mean
that he was unsure of his salvation. Such teaching produced
a wave of uncertainty and fear in the Church, which was then
used to put men into the bondage of works. This fear was
used by unscrupulous Church leaders to motivate men to
give more money to the Church as proof of their sincerity.

But the truth sets men free. When Christians learn the
revelation of the feast days, they can then easily see the
difference between a Passover believer who is justified by
faith, a Pentecostal believer who is sanctified by the Spirit,
and a Tabernacles believer who will be glorified to reign
with Him.

This is the path toward the full salvation of spirit, soul, and
body (1 Thess. 5:23). Passover saves your spirit; Pentecost
saves your soul; and Tabernacles saves your body. We call
it Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification (or the
redemption of your body—Rom. 8:23).

Of course, understand that the glorified body will not be like
the present body with its limitations.

Those who fulfill
Tabernacles will have a body like that of Jesus after His
resurrection.

Click to expand...

Because He had authority in both heaven and
earth (Matt. 28:18), He was able to move with ease in both
realms.

It is sufficient for now to understand the Feast of Trumpets
and its relationship to the Day of Atonement and the Days
of Awe. Meanwhile, I advise all believers to start purchasing
your oil today. Do not wait for the Feast of Trumpets, for that
will be too late.


Logabe

Click to expand...

An overcomer is not the same as being a mere believer in Jesus
Christ. In John's message to the Seven Churches, the word was
given to the entire Church, but the rewards were reserved for those
who overcome. The clear implication is that not all believers would
actually overcome.

The difficulty that Christians have had in distinguishing the believers
from the overcomers is their simplistic view of divine reward and
punishment. It is generally believed that all unbelievers are
punished in “hell,” while all believers receive “eternal life.” There
seems to be a type of divine democracy in this, where all men are
treated equally, depending only on whether or not they believe in
Jesus Christ.

But Jesus Himself made it clear in Luke 19 that some believers
would be rewarded with rulership over five cities (19:19), or ten
cities (19:17). This alone shows us that all future rewards are
not equal. But this goes beyond the basic reward of immortal life,
for these rewards deal with authority over others, or other cities.
Immortality is immortality, and everyone who receives it will have
it equally. But immortality is not the only reward.

Then, too, there is the little-understood question of WHEN a
person will receive this reward of immortality. By this, I do not
mean to enter the debate about whether a person receives
immortality at the moment of his death or later in the resurrection.
The more important question is whether he is raised in the first
resurrection or the second. The first resurrection consists of
those who are called to positions of authority, for Rev. 20:4-6
says,

4 . . . and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a
thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand
years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has part in the first
resurrection; over these the second death has no power,
but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign
with Him for a thousand years.

The first resurrection will NOT include everyone, for it speaks
of “the rest of the dead” not coming to life until a thousand
years later. This makes it a limited resurrection. The second
resurrection, however, includes ALL the dead—that is, the
rest of the dead (Rev. 20:11). Of this resurrection Jesus said
in John 5:28, 29,

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which all
who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to
a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds
to a resurrection of judgment.

This resurrection of which Jesus spoke was the second,
in which “all who are in the tombs” are raised to life. In
verse 29 Jesus makes it clear that this resurrection will
include both believers and unbelievers, for some will
receive “life,” while others will receive “judgment.” (Paul
confirms this in Acts 24:15.)

We can only conclude, then, that the first resurrection will
include ONLY believers, but NOT ALL believers. The second
resurrection will include both believers and unbelievers, who
will receive their respective rewards (life or judgment) at the
same time. This is consistent with what Jesus taught in
Luke 12:46, where He says that some of God's “servants”
will receive their reward “with” (at the same time as) the
unbelievers.

This is also confirmed by Moses in the law. The dead are to
be raised “at the last trumpet” (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:16).
Moses prophesied that the congregation (“Church”) was to
be summoned before God by the blowing of two silver
trumpets (Num. 10:3). But only one trumpet was blown to
summon the rulers of the people—that is, those in positions
of authority or rule. Since “the last trumpet” uses the singular
term, we can see that Paul was speaking of the first
resurrection that would summon only the rulers of the people—
that is, the overcomers. This is the “better resurrection”
(Heb. 11:35) that the men of faith sought to attain.

The distinction between the two resurrections raises the
question of what it takes to be an overcomer. Must a person
be beheaded, as a literal reading of Rev. 20:4 would seem
to indicate? Must a person suffer martyrdom, as so many of
the men of faith did who are listed in Hebrews 11?

The simple answer is this: overcomers must indeed lose
their heads, but not necessarily their physical heads. God
is more concerned with replacing our minds with the mind
of Christ than He is with physical beheadings. Secondly, in
the list of overcomers in Hebrews 11, it is primarily their
faith that commends them, not their death. Yet they had to
love God more than their own lives. The list in Hebrews 11
includes (by name) only two men who were actually
martyred—Abel and Samson. Neither was beheaded, and
the rest died normal deaths. Yet all these obtained “a better
resurrection.”

Logabe

Hi logabe

You said........

“An overcomer is not the same as being a mere believer in Jesus
Christ. In John's message to the Seven Churches, the word was
given to the entire Church, but the rewards were reserved for those
who overcome. The clear implication is that not all believers would
actually overcome.”

Click to expand...

An interesting statement, but you are wrong.
If you look closely at each of the things given to the overcomers of each Church, you will see that these 7 things, have to do with “salvation”.

That is, the “overcomers” of each Church, are the ones that are “saved” in each Church.
These 7 Churches were all local Churches, therefore none of them had a membership, that was 100% saved people.

The clear implication here, is that “not all Church members, are saved”.

all this reward in heaven stuff sure doesnt sound to good for st Paul.

since he said this long after his conversion to Christianity

must be true To --------since all scripture is God breathed.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.


i claim to be the 3rd worst sinner though after st Paul and Martin Luther of course..

than comes horsecamp

bigape said:

Hi logabe

You said........

An interesting statement, but you are wrong.
If you look closely at each of the things given to the overcomers of each Church, you will see that these 7 things, have to do with “salvation”.

That is, the “overcomers” of each Church, are the ones that are “saved” in each Church.
These 7 Churches were all local Churches, therefore none of them had a membership, that was 100% saved people.

The clear implication here, is that “not all Church members, are saved”.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The overcomers are the meek (obedient) who will inherit the earth (Matt. 5:5).
The whole earth will be divided into sections over which the overcomers will
have the highest authority (Luke 12:42-44). The rest of the believers will
receive some limited kind of judgment. The parable of Luke 12:45-49 makes
it clear that they will be given their inheritance (life) at the same time that the
unbelievers receive their reward (judgment). The reward will not be the same,
obviously, but the timing will be the same.

The believers (“servants”) are said to receive “few stripes” or “many stripes,”
according to the law in Deut. 25:1-3, where the law's penalty is limited to forty
stripes. Whether this will be inflicted in a literal or symbolic sense, I cannot
say. I do know, however, that Jesus refers to this judgment as a “fire” in the
final verse of the parable (Luke 12:49). The beating is the fire, because it is
the penalty of the divine law.

Paul adds his witness in 1 Cor. 3:15, where he says that those believers
who built upon the Foundation of Christ using material made of wood, hay,
and stubble, will lose their reward when it is tried by the fire. But even so,
Paul says, “they will be saved so as by fire.” They will not lose their salvation,
but they will lose the rewards of righteousness for their lawlessness and
disobedience. Or, as Jesus put it in Luke 12, they will not be given the
authority of the faithful servant because they oppressed those who were
entrusted to them in this life time. That is, they used their positions of
authority to force men (parishioners?) to be their servants, instead of
serving others as Jesus taught us to do.

These non-overcoming Christians will be given various positions of
administrations under the authority of the overcomers. They will be
placed over various “cities” according to their faithfulness shown in
their life time (Luke 19:12-26).

As for the judgment of the sinners, the “fiery law” (Deut. 33:2) proclaims
all sinners to be debtors, and since these unbelievers will have no
means of paying their debt, they must be “sold” to the overcomers, who
will (as the Body of Christ) “redeem” them. This simply means that the
sinners will be sold as slaves to the overcomers during that final age
of judgment.

We are not told how long that age of judgment will last, but in 1 Cor.
15:24-28 Paul makes it clear that Christ must reign on the earth until
all enemies are put in subjection to Him. The sinners must be taught
obedience by those who are placed in authority over them. The
Christian slave owners will not mistreat them, but they will teach and
train the unbelievers by word and by example how to be subject to the
divine law. In time they will come into agreement with Christ, seeing
that He is not a tyrant or an oppressor, but a loving Master.

As they learn obedience, these slaves will have the law written upon
their hearts and not merely imposed upon them by force of an external
law. In time, they will not need to be told what to do, for they will
automatically do so with joy. The authority of the overcomers and the
other believers will therefore become more and more irrelevant, for
they will have less and less occasion to force obedience by their
authority.

Logabe

Hello again logabe

You said in your first paragraph........

“The overcomers are the meek (obedient) who will inherit the earth (Matt. 5:5).
The whole earth will be divided into sections over which the overcomers will
have the highest authority (Luke 12:42-44). The rest of the believers will
receive some limited kind of judgment. The parable of Luke 12:45-49 makes
it clear that they will be given their inheritance (life) at the same time that the
unbelievers receive their reward (judgment). The reward will not be the same,
obviously, but the timing will be the same.”

Click to expand...

The parable you are referring to in Luke 12:42-48, is describing the Local Church:
Because the parable describes a group of “servants”, with some being saved and some unsaved.......
Luke 12:46
“The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”
--------------------------------------------------
In your 2nd paragraph you said...........

“The believers (“servants”) are said to receive “few stripes” or “many stripes,”
according to the law in Deut. 25:1-3, where the law's penalty is limited to forty
stripes. Whether this will be inflicted in a literal or symbolic sense, I cannot
say. I do know, however, that Jesus refers to this judgment as a “fire” in the
final verse of the parable (Luke 12:49). The beating is the fire, because it is
the penalty of the divine law.”

Click to expand...

The Lord’s reference to “few stripes” or “many stripes”, is talking about God’s righteous judgement in regards to the lack of fire.............
Revelation 20:11-15
V.11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
V.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
V.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
V.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
V.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is a righteous judge, and every unsaved person will be judged, as to the kind of life they had lived.
They are all going to the lake of fire, because they rejected Christ as their Savior.
But their punishment in the lake of fire will be determined by their life, and how many times they rejected God’s free gift, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
Your next paragraph........

“Paul adds his witness in 1 Cor. 3:15, where he says that those believers
who built upon the Foundation of Christ using material made of wood, hay,
and stubble, will lose their reward when it is tried by the fire. But even so,
Paul says, “they will be saved so as by fire.” They will not lose their salvation,
but they will lose the rewards of righteousness for their lawlessness and
disobedience. Or, as Jesus put it in Luke 12, they will not be given the
authority of the faithful servant because they oppressed those who were
entrusted to them in this life time. That is, they used their positions of
authority to force men (parishioners?) to be their servants, instead of
serving others as Jesus taught us to do.

Click to expand...

Certainly salvation, is a gift and not a reward; So therefore believers can and will go to heaven, while yet losing rewards.
But the things talked about in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, given to the overcomers, are NEVER called rewards.
The Lord simply says, “to those who overcome, I will give.....”:
They are not things given, because a person overcame: but because they are overcomers.
It ever say that they were given, because these people overcame, would be teaching “works for salvation”.
--------------------------------------------------
In your next paragraph you said.........

“These non-overcoming Christians will be given various positions of
administrations under the authority of the overcomers. They will be
placed over various “cities” according to their faithfulness shown in
their life time (Luke 19:12-26).”

Click to expand...

First of all, there is no such thing as a “non-overcoming Christian”.
Every Christian is an overcomer, because they trusted Christ and got saved.

Now this parable (Luke 19:12-26), does talk about differing rewards, depending upon their faithfulness. But all were overcomers.

Now the third person in this parable, is simply unsaved: This is also a parable describing the earthly(local), Church, that will be made up of both saved and unsaved people.
--------------------------------------------------
Your next paragraph..........

“As for the judgment of the sinners, the “fiery law” (Deut. 33:2) proclaims
all sinners to be debtors, and since these unbelievers will have no
means of paying their debt, they must be “sold” to the overcomers, who
will (as the Body of Christ) “redeem” them. This simply means that the
sinners will be sold as slaves to the overcomers during that final age
of judgment.”

Click to expand...

The “fiery law” is the Law of Moses(V.4), and the Old Testament law was the way in which the Old Testament Saints, remained faithful.
It didn’t save them or keep them saved: It was simply the way they were sanctified.

As for all this stuff about......“unbelievers being “sold” to the overcomers”:
This is unBilical nonsense.
Sinners are in bondage to their sin, and are sold unto sin. (That is all)
--------------------------------------------------
Finally you said.........

“We are not told how long that age of judgment will last, but in 1 Cor.
15:24-28 Paul makes it clear that Christ must reign on the earth until
all enemies are put in subjection to Him. The sinners must be taught
obedience by those who are placed in authority over them. The
Christian slave owners will not mistreat them, but they will teach and
train the unbelievers by word and by example how to be subject to the
divine law. In time they will come into agreement with Christ, seeing
that He is not a tyrant or an oppressor, but a loving Master.”

Click to expand...

We are told how long Christ must reign on the earth until all enemies are put in subjection to Him.........
Revelation 20:6
“Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

And all this talk about “Christian slave owners”, is also unBilical nonsense.

bigape said:

Hello again logabe

You said in your first paragraph........

The parable you are referring to in Luke 12:42-48, is describing the Local Church:
Because the parable describes a group of “servants”, with some being saved and some unsaved.......
Luke 12:46
“The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”
--------------------------------------------------
In your 2nd paragraph you said...........

The Lord’s reference to “few stripes” or “many stripes”, is talking about God’s righteous judgement in regards to the lack of fire.............
Revelation 20:11-15
V.11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
V.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
V.13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
V.14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
V.15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God is a righteous judge, and every unsaved person will be judged, as to the kind of life they had lived.
They are all going to the lake of fire, because they rejected Christ as their Savior.
But their punishment in the lake of fire will be determined by their life, and how many times they rejected God’s free gift, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
Your next paragraph........

Certainly salvation, is a gift and not a reward; So therefore believers can and will go to heaven, while yet losing rewards.
But the things talked about in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, given to the overcomers, are NEVER called rewards.
The Lord simply says, “to those who overcome, I will give.....”:
They are not things given, because a person overcame: but because they are overcomers.
It ever say that they were given, because these people overcame, would be teaching “works for salvation”.
--------------------------------------------------
In your next paragraph you said.........

First of all, there is no such thing as a “non-overcoming Christian”.
Every Christian is an overcomer, because they trusted Christ and got saved.

Now this parable (Luke 19:12-26), does talk about differing rewards, depending upon their faithfulness. But all were overcomers.

Now the third person in this parable, is simply unsaved: This is also a parable describing the earthly(local), Church, that will be made up of both saved and unsaved people.
--------------------------------------------------
Your next paragraph..........


The “fiery law” is the Law of Moses(V.4), and the Old Testament law was the way in which the Old Testament Saints, remained faithful.
It didn’t save them or keep them saved: It was simply the way they were sanctified.

As for all this stuff about......“unbelievers being “sold” to the overcomers”:
This is unBilical nonsense.
Sinners are in bondage to their sin, and are sold unto sin. (That is all)
--------------------------------------------------
Finally you said.........

We are told how long Christ must reign on the earth until all enemies are put in subjection to Him.........
Revelation 20:6
“Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

And all this talk about “Christian slave owners”, is also unBilical nonsense.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Bigabe... you have some really good insight on the scriptures but,
let's get some basic understanding of the Laws of Redemption.

Under biblical law, men were bondservants until their debts were
paid or until the Year of Jubilee, when all debts were cancelled by
grace. Bondservants were forced by law to work for their masters,
but they also had rights. Slavery itself as practiced in most parts
of the world was unlawful under biblical law.

A man and his family who had become bond-servants because
of debt were supposed to work for their masters until the debt was
paid. Then they were set free. But there was another provision.
The bondservant could be redeemed by a relative.

Lev. 25:47-55 tells of the laws of redemption. It says that a relative
has the right of redemption, as long as he has enough money to
pay the debt of his relative. In other words, the bondservant's
master does not have a choice in the matter. The master only
has the choice if the potential redeemer is a mere friend of the
bondservant. If a friend came to negotiate a deal, the choice
would ultimately fall to the master, not to the friend of the
bondservant. Why? Because the right of redemption is given
only to a relative.

The Bible says in Heb. 2:11-17 that Jesus Christ did not come
to earth by taking the form of an angel. He came rather as a
man, taking upon Himself the seed of Abraham in order to
qualify as a relative to Israel and Judah. This gave Jesus the
right of redemption.

But further, the same passage tells us that Jesus Christ came
in “flesh and blood,” in order to qualify as a relative to all men.
This gave Jesus the right of redemption for all men all the way
back to Adam.

There are many people today and throughout history who have
not wanted to be redeemed by Jesus Christ, usually because
they did not really understand their need of redemption or did
not have faith that He could really set them free. What about
these people? Will they benefit from Jesus' redemption
payment in spite of their unbelief? Yes, but not immediately.
All will be held accountable for their actions, and every
judgment will fit the crime.

Here is how it works. The law of redemption says that those
who agree to be redeemed by their relative must serve their
redeemer (Lev. 25:53). In other words, those who are
redeemed are not set free to do their own pleasure. The
redeemer has purchased their debt note, and therefore,
they are still bondservants—but now they are bondservants
of One who loves them and will treat them right.

But what about those who refuse to accept the provision
God has made for us to be redeemed? The law says in
Lev. 25:54 that “even if he is not redeemed in these years,
he is still to go free in the year of Jubilee, both he and his
children with him.”

Because of Adam's sin, all men have become mortal. That
in itself is a judgment for sin. But the final judgment is the
“lake of fire, which is the second death” (Rev. 20:14). This
type of death is of a different sort. It speaks of the future age
when the unbelievers who did not avail themselves of Jesus'
offer of redemption will remain mortal and will have to learn
right and wrong as servants of God.

In the final analysis, the law says that if a man cannot pay a
debt (which is incurred by sin), he is to work as a bondservant
to pay the debt. If the debt is too great to be paid, he must work
until the year of Jubilee sets him free.

The unbelievers at the Great White Throne will be sentenced
to work as bondservants until the final Jubilee sets them free.
The purpose of this is not so that their masters can act like
tyrants over a bunch of slaves. The purpose is given in Isaiah
26:9, where the prophet says,

9 “When God's judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants
of the world will learn righteousness.”

In other words, the purpose of putting bond-servants under
masters is so that the sinners of the earth may learn the will
of God and learn to follow Christ. Their “masters” will teach
them and train them in the laws of God. What a happy time!

Logabe

Hello again logabe

Nice to talk to you again.

You have an interesting point of view, but you said..........

“Because of Adam's sin, all men have become mortal. That
in itself is a judgment for sin. But the final judgment is the
“lake of fire, which is the second death” (Rev. 20:14). This
type of death is of a different sort. It speaks of the future age
when the unbelievers who did not avail themselves of Jesus'
offer of redemption will remain mortal and will have to learn
right and wrong as servants of God.”

Click to expand...

I think I see your problem.
(You are forgetting that the Jews were all God’s people.)

The things that you have said about Old Testament bond-servants is correct, but it can not be applied to the unsaved.
(Because it is talking about “God’s people”.)

God’s people are taught to do right, by God’s chastening hand.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said.........

“In the final analysis, the law says that if a man cannot pay a
debt (which is incurred by sin), he is to work as a bondservant
to pay the debt. If the debt is too great to be paid, he must work
until the year of Jubilee sets him free.”

Click to expand...

This idea of working to pay off our debt, is what “religion” teaches;
But to this, Jesus said........
Matthew 11:28
“Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

And the “years of Jubilee”, are a reference to the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ.
--------------------------------------------------
You also said.........

“The unbelievers at the Great White Throne will be sentenced
to work as bondservants until the final Jubilee sets them free.
The purpose of this is not so that their masters can act like
tyrants over a bunch of slaves. The purpose is given in Isaiah
26:9, where the prophet says,

Click to expand...

This verse in Isaiah, is beautiful.......
Isaiah 26:9
“With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”

The time this is talking about(when thy judgments are in the earth), is also talking about the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ, when Jesus Himself, will be the King of the world, and will rule the world with a rod of iron.
Teaching the world righteousness.
--------------------------------------------------
Finally you said.........

“In other words, the purpose of putting bond-servants under
masters is so that the sinners of the earth may learn the will
of God and learn to follow Christ. Their “masters” will teach
them and train them in the laws of God. What a happy time!”

Click to expand...

This statement about “learning to follow Christ”, sounds a lot like......
Galatians 3:24
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

The law is for the unsaved, to show them their sinfulness and their need for Christ.
(The law showed us, that we could not do it ourselves
And that we needed the Lord, to save us and to deliver us from our sin.

bigape said:

Hello again logabe

Nice to talk to you again.

You have an interesting point of view, but you said..........


I think I see your problem.
(You are forgetting that the Jews were all God’s people.)

The things that you have said about Old Testament bond-servants is correct, but it can not be applied to the unsaved.

(Because it is talking about “God’s people”.)

Click to expand...

God’s people are taught to do right, by God’s chastening hand.
--------------------------------------------------
Next you said.........

This idea of working to pay off our debt, is what “religion” teaches;
But to this, Jesus said........
Matthew 11:28
“Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

And the “years of Jubilee”, are a reference to the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ.
--------------------------------------------------
You also said.........

This verse in Isaiah, is beautiful.......
Isaiah 26:9
“With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”

The time this is talking about(when thy judgments are in the earth), is also talking about the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ, when Jesus Himself, will be the King of the world, and will rule the world with a rod of iron.
Teaching the world righteousness.
--------------------------------------------------
Finally you said.........

This statement about “learning to follow Christ”, sounds a lot like......
Galatians 3:24
“Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”

The law is for the unsaved, to show them their sinfulness and their need for Christ.
(The law showed us, that we could not do it ourselves
And that we needed the Lord, to save us and to deliver us from our sin.

Click to expand...

Bigape...you have some really good answers and let's discuss
who God's people are. I thought when we believe on the Lord
Jesus, " We are His people". Tell me who Paul is talking to in
Rom. 6,

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace
might increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? . . . .
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin,
you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching
to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of
righteousness.19 I am speaking in human terms because of the
weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as
slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further
lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to
righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard
to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the
things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome
of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to
God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and
the outcome, eternal life.

Paul's discussion here is based upon the law of redemption.
The redeemed bondservant is bound by the divine law to
serve the redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer, who bought
us with His blood, and for this reason, as Paul says, we have
been “freed from sin and enslaved to God” (vs. 22). That is,
sin is no longer our master, but we now have God as our
Master. That means we are now accountable to His law
and are expected to be obedient to Him. John says that
“sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). John also says in 1 John
2:3 and 4,

3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if
we keep His commandments.4 The one who says, "I have
come to know him," and does not keep His commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John is not saying that the law is the basis of our salvation.
He is saying that our obedience is the outward EVIDENCE
that we are saved, for if we claim to be redeemed, but refuse
to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, we do not really know
Him. “By this we know.” The lawless Christian is violating
the law of redemption. For this reason, Jesus says of such
people in Matthew 7:23, “I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness."

Lawless Christians will not lose their salvation ultimately.
They will be “saved, yet so as through fire,” as Paul says in
1 Corinthians 3:15. And, of course, if a man merely professes
to be a believer but is not really a Christian at all—God judges
the heart—then such a man will be thrown into the lake of fire
for a longer and more extensive kind of purification. Those
unbelievers, however, will finally be set free at the great
Jubilee at the end of time, for we read in Leviticus 25:54,

54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall
still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him.

What a glorious promise! The Jubilee is the law of grace. No
matter how far a man goes into debt, the Jubilee will set him
free. Even if no kinsman redeems him, there is a day coming
when he will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of
God. This is why all of creation is awaiting this day. Romans
8:19-25 says,

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for
the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own
will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its
slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the
children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and
suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the
first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within
ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the
redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is
seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what
he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with
perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

All creation waits in anticipation of this Jubilee. It is the
goal of history and the ultimate purpose of God. The law
of Jubilee on every level obtains its power by the blood
of Jesus Christ on the Cross, as we read in 1 John 2:1
and 2,

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that
you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate
with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not
for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

What a Plan and what a God!

Logabe

logabe said:

Bigape...you have some really good answers and let's discuss
who God's people are. I thought when we believe on the Lord
Jesus, " We are His people". Tell me who Paul is talking to in
Rom. 6,

1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace
might increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? . . . .
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin,
you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching
to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of
righteousness.19 I am speaking in human terms because of the
weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as
slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further
lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to
righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard
to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the
things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome
of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to
God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and
the outcome, eternal life.

Paul's discussion here is based upon the law of redemption.
The redeemed bondservant is bound by the divine law to
serve the redeemer. Jesus is the Redeemer, who bought
us with His blood, and for this reason, as Paul says, we have
been “freed from sin and enslaved to God” (vs. 22). That is,
sin is no longer our master, but we now have God as our
Master. That means we are now accountable to His law
and are expected to be obedient to Him. John says that
“sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4). John also says in 1 John
2:3 and 4,

3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if
we keep His commandments.4 The one who says, "I have
come to know him," and does not keep His commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

John is not saying that the law is the basis of our salvation.
He is saying that our obedience is the outward EVIDENCE
that we are saved, for if we claim to be redeemed, but refuse
to be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, we do not really know
Him. “By this we know.” The lawless Christian is violating
the law of redemption. For this reason, Jesus says of such
people in Matthew 7:23, “I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness."

Lawless Christians will not lose their salvation ultimately.
They will be “saved, yet so as through fire,” as Paul says in
1 Corinthians 3:15. And, of course, if a man merely professes
to be a believer but is not really a Christian at all—God judges
the heart—then such a man will be thrown into the lake of fire
for a longer and more extensive kind of purification. Those
unbelievers, however, will finally be set free at the great
Jubilee at the end of time, for we read in Leviticus 25:54,

54 Even if he is not redeemed by these means, he shall
still go out in the year of Jubilee, he and his sons with him.

What a glorious promise! The Jubilee is the law of grace. No
matter how far a man goes into debt, the Jubilee will set him
free. Even if no kinsman redeems him, there is a day coming
when he will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of
God. This is why all of creation is awaiting this day. Romans
8:19-25 says,

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for
the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own
will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its
slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the
children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and
suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the
first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within
ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the
redemption of our body.
24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is
seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what
he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with
perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

All creation waits in anticipation of this Jubilee. It is the
goal of history and the ultimate purpose of God. The law
of Jubilee on every level obtains its power by the blood
of Jesus Christ on the Cross, as we read in 1 John 2:1
and 2,

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you that
you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate
with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not
for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

Click to expand...

What a Plan and what a God!

Logabe

Click to expand...

What Jesus accomplished at the Cross was the FACT of universal
salvation. There the sin of the whole world was paid as a matter of
fact. His blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat in heaven
(Heb. 9:12) on behalf of the entire group that had been affected by
the sin of Adam. 1 John 2:2 says,

2 and He Himself is the expiation for our sin; and not
for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

For this reason, Paul could boldly write in 1 Tim. 4:9-11,

9 It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance.
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we
have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior
of all men, especially of believers

Paul did not say ONLY believers, but "especially." Those who
believe have established the TIMING of their salvation. They
will inherit a better resurrection (Heb. 11:35), but in the end
God is "the Savior of all men," for Christ's blood has purchased
and redeemed all that was lost in Adam.

Nevertheless, death has continued to reign since the Cross,
because, while the FACT of universal salvation has been
accomplished, the TIMING of our salvation was yet to be
determined. Obviously, we are all born at different times, so
even our opportunity to conciliate God in return is extended over
thousands of years. But more than that, Paul says clearly that
men are reconciled to God only after they conciliate God in return.

Yet in the end, after the so-called "lake of fire" (symbol of the divine
law--see Deut. 33:2) has had its corrective effect upon the ungodly,
all of creation will be reconciled to Him. We read this in Col. 1:16-20,

16 For by Him all things were created, both in the
heavens and the earth, visible and invisible...all
things have been created by Him and for Him ...
20 and through Him [Christ] to reconcile
[apokatallaso] all things to Himself, having made
peace through the blood of His cross; through Him,
I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven

Paul was speaking of the overall FACT of reconciliation, not its
process through TIME. All have now been conciliated, Paul says,
but only believers are now reconciled and will be given Life in an
earlier resurrection.

What a Great God we have!

Logabe





.
11 Prescribe and teach these things.