Why Did Our Father Want Blood Sacrifices?

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bling

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May 5, 2009
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Sorry, I clicked on the submit button before I had finished.

So, the question is - what does God want to communicate to us through the rituals of blood sacrifice?

It is not about what God is 'pleased' with. God is not and has never been 'pleased' with sacrifices, in the sense that he gets any kind of pleasure out of seeing his creatures (animals are loved by God as much as we are) slaughtered. Rather it grieves God that this must happen.

However, what he wants to convey to us is some inkling of the consequences that sin has on the world. When my sin exacts the death of an inocent creature, I cannot easily ignore the message that my sin is grave and costly. When it is a gentle and inocent lamb, it is one thing. But when it is the death of the God-man Jesus Christ himself, that is altogether something else.

The question should be then - what is it about my sin that requires the devastating punishment of someone who has done nothing but love me and the world?

No other religion deals with this issue. Sin is not faced head on in any other religion or philosophy in the world. In the Old Testament and more fully in the New Testament alone is the absolute extent of the destructive nature of my sin made clear. I can only begin to understand the gravity of my sin when I realize that my wilful sin can only ultimately be dealt with by the death of God himself (in the human person Jesus Christ)! It is only his inocent blood that can make adequate payment for my sin.

The reality is this: if I sin and subsequently I am killed as punishment (as is just and fair) then God is satisfied that I have paid for my sin. But he is forever grieved that the relationship that he created me for with Him cannot be restored (because I am no more). However, if another life can be substituted for mine, and the punishment can be fully paid in this other's death, then God and I get the best of both worlds: that is, my sin is fully paid for, and because I am set free from the power of sin, God is able to restore the relationship he craves with me. This is the heart of the gospel (John 3:16).

This is the real message of the New Testament. It was hinted at in the Old Testament as a glorious day to be looked forward to, but the reality is in the advent of Christ. Sin is awful and hideously destructive, ultimately leading to the total destruction of the first creation. But in Christ, through his victorious death and resurrection, a new creation is being birthed that is better than the old creation because it is based not on innocence, but total and absolute forgiveness! And this forgiveness is not based on the whim of a God that just chooses to forgive, but on the basis of a legally binding reality - the payment of the sin of the world through the death of Christ, and made complete by the pouring forth of the Holy Spirit into our lives, made possible only because Jesus (being inocent and thus unworthy of death himself) was raised from the dead and lives to infuse us with his own nature through the indwelling Holy Spirit, who is working to bring us to maturity so that we will be ready to live in the new creation free from sin in all it's forms.

Not a short answer, but I think will answer your question.

You really need to read my post 86 to get an alternative answer.
Are we the ones needing to be punished (disciplened) for our actions and does disciplen not show we are children?
Could God forgive sin without the need for a human sacrifice andwould that be good for us to go unpunished?
Are you suggesting God tortured Christ?
 

Robinson Crusoe

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Feb 15, 2010
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Hi Gumby,

I can answer your question because I do not hold to the Penal model of the atonement which says that Christ died to pay our sin debt to God. Rather I hold to the Classic or Ransom view of the atonement in which Christ is seen as a conqueror and redeemer. You see the OT sacrifices were types, they wee to show Israel to that an innocent one would suffer for the guilty. According to the Penal model it is God who requires payment for sins, it say since man wasn't able to make the payment Christ did. However, in the Classic view Adam and Eve, disobeyed God and obeyed Satan, thus falling under Satan's control. Since Adam and Eve were now slaves They needed to be redeemed, so Christ offered Himself to God as a sacrifice. Not like an animal sacrifice but like an heroic sacrifice. He offered to lay down his life in order to redeem that which was precious to God, mankind. So, It wasn't God who was the cause of the horrible death, it was Satan. Christ died for our sins as ransom to redeem mankind not as a payment ot God like the Penal model portrays.

I hope this answers you question. I know it rather simplified and I haven't gone into great depth. I you have any questions, please, quest away.



The Original model, the same one the western church held for the first 1000 years of church history and the one the eastern Church still holds to, the one the Ante-Nicene church held to, The Classic or Ransom model of the atonement.

What is your Biblical argument for this?
 

Robinson Crusoe

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There are things that are required - innocent blood to atone for sin - and then there are things that are wanted - our love as shown in Hosea 6:6.

That's a good point; there is a Psalm (50) that is pretty explicit about that. But, to me, when I think about the word, "want," I am programmed to to think in terms like this: if doing something I don't want to do, will get me what I want, then I want to do it. It seems like, I am putting my desire in submission to some higher goal and then allowing that goal to mold and shape my desires. In effect, I am liberated from my desires and enslaved to my goals. Hence, the need to let God mold our goals; thankfully, He has given us His Law to guide us and fear of Him (as well as other emotions) to motivate us.

And then the whole squeamishness about blood bothers me, because we all have to suffer and die! If you aren't killing cows and chickens for your dinner, your farming is wiping out habit for animals and leading to their early death and perhaps even, extinction. I mean, there is no way to avoid bloodshed and obey God (i.e. Genesis: be fruitful and multiply). So, to be faithful, we should make it our goal to get over that.








 

bling

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May 5, 2009
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Are you referring to a Biblical argument for the Classic view?

If you go to my blog you can read my position on the Atonement www.Butch5.blogspot.com
I read your blog.
I agree with your issues against Penal Substitution and the Satisfaction explanation, But have problems with the Ransom explanation also.
You really need to read my post 56.
The Ransom explanation has Christ dying to “buy back” everyone from satan. We start out slaves to satan by our choice and have given ourselves over to him, but we can make the choice to change masters, without owing satan anything and God does not have to buy us away since He does not “owe” satan anything for having us back. All we have to do is accept God’s free undeserving gift of Love in the form of forgiveness, but we do not like to take charity. Satan is a powerful spiritual being that must be controlled by power greater than human ability alone and that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit that came after Christ went to the cross.
The great tempter satan, does get us to decide to sin, and satan does lots of destruction throughout this world, but that winds up helping those that are just a little willing to accept God most wonderful free gift of Love in the form of forgiveness.
How does the Ransom solution help us to accept God’s forgiveness (Love)?
How does the Ransom solution show we are Children of God by God seeing to it that we are disciplining (punishing of the guilty)?
How do we know we have been forgiven of much so we will Love much?
How does the ransom solution show we have free will, since it is not by our own free will we remain slaves to satan?
 

farouk

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Jan 21, 2009
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Ms H:

To answer your question, it was to cleanse sins that the Lord Jesus Christ was sacrificed, and this is the only way for you and me to be cleansed from our sins. The Old Testament sacrifices pointed forward to that sacrifice. The Epistle to the Hebrews explains it very well.
 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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Homer Ga.
Can you defend this with Bible verses or not?

Yeah, they were in the blog post, however, here are some.

Matthew 20:28 ( KJV )
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 ( KJV )
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Colossians 1:12-13 ( KJV )
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Hebrews 2:14-15 ( KJV )
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


1 John 3:8 ( KJV )
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Psalms 68:18 ( KJV )
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:7-9 ( KJV )
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Galatians 1:4-5 ( YLT )
who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father,
to whom is the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen.

Acts 26:14-18 ( KJV )
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Acts 20:28 ( KJV )
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Romans 7:14 ( KJV )
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
 

bigape

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May 22, 2008
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Hello Miss Hepburn

You said........
“Any help? If you say go to Hebrews 9 - it doesn't help them. It does not answer the question why?”
Your reference to Hebrews 9, was undoubtedly talking about..........
Hebrews 9:22
“And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.”


It is great for you to ask “why”(the LORD always wants us to ask for details), and praise the Lord the Bible gives us details.

But these details are reserved for believers only.......
1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.”


The unsaved have to take statements like Hebrews 9:22 on faith, until they are saved, and then the Holy Spirit will open up God’s Word to them personally.
--------------------------------------------------
You have already received a lot of Scripture on this subject,
But here’s my 2 cents.

First of all blood is special......
Leviticus 17:11
“For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.”


And this is how the LORD refers to our lives........
Genesis 9:6
“Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.”


(This is talking about capital punishment!)
--------------------------------------------------
Now capital punishment will not apply, if we have to take someone’s life, that breaks into our house.......
Exodus 22:2
“If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, [there shall] no blood [be shed] for him.”


This doesn’t require capital punishment, because this isn’t the shedding of “innocent blood”.........
Numbers 35:33
“So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye [are]: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.”


Here we see what capital punishment does: It cleans the land of the pollution caused by the shedding of innocent blood
--------------------------------------------------
As for your question.........
“Why would a loving Father want blood from innocents? His little innocent creatures, lambs, His Son...?”
In the Old Testament, the blood of animals hid(temporarily), man’s sins from God.
But in the New Testament, the Blood of Christ(the only innocent man to ever live), covers our sins permanently, because He was also God.

On the cross, Christ was our substitute.

Our “only hope”, for deliverance from our sin, is the Lord’s innocent blood.
 

Robinson Crusoe

New Member
Feb 15, 2010
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Yeah, they were in the blog post, however, here are some.

Matthew 20:28 ( KJV )
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 ( KJV )
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Colossians 1:12-13 ( KJV )
Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Hebrews 2:14-15 ( KJV )
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.


1 John 3:8 ( KJV )
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Psalms 68:18 ( KJV )
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Ephesians 4:7-9 ( KJV )
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Galatians 1:4-5 ( YLT )
who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father,
to whom is the glory to the ages of the ages. Amen.

Acts 26:14-18 ( KJV )
And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Acts 20:28 ( KJV )
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Romans 7:14 ( KJV )
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

I read part of your blog article and it sounds as if God has to pay Satan a ransom, before he will release his prisoners. That seems odd. The whole thing is kind of interesting though.


Anyway, this is Orthodox versus Catholic versus Protestant stuff, which, at this point in time, does not excite me. Once Christendom is secure, then I might be in the mood for these kind of fights, but until then, they seem counter-productive (we seem to need a greater identity now, not a smaller one). Of course, if if converts Hepburn's friend, fine with me! Still though, I think the main draw to Eastern Orthodox in The West these days is its' traditional values, which, are not unique to it, but seem relatively more intact, than they are in the other Christian churches.





 

Butch5

Butch5
Oct 24, 2009
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Homer Ga.
I read part of your blog article and it sounds as if God has to pay Satan a ransom, before he will release his prisoners. That seems odd. The whole thing is kind of interesting though.


Anyway, this is Orthodox versus Catholic versus Protestant stuff, which, at this point in time, does not excite me. Once Christendom is secure, then I might be in the mood for these kind of fights, but until then, they seem counter-productive (we seem to need a greater identity now, not a smaller one). Of course, if if converts Hepburn's friend, fine with me! Still though, I think the main draw to Eastern Orthodox in The West these days is its' traditional values, which, are not unique to it, but seem relatively more intact, than they are in the other Christian churches.

It isn't that had to Pay Satan a ransom, the idea is that he did so to show He is just. God had has the ability and could easily have taken mankind form Satan. However, since Adam and Eve willingly submitted to the sin the idea is that they willingly fell into Satan's control. There ore God purchased them back.While the Eastern Orthodox do hold this position it is not theirs. This was the view of the entire church for the first 1000 years. The western Church left this teaching when The Catholic church accepted the ideas put forth by Anselm of Canterbury, a Catholic theologian.

I don;t see this as a small matter because I think it would clear up a lot of the problems the modern church faces. You have the Catholic church which fo many years over emphasized works and now we have the Protestant church which over emphasizes faith, both almost to the exclusion of the other. I think most western Christians believe Christ died for their sins but don't know exactly how. Many say Christ died to appease the wrath of God against man. There are so many problems between this idea and Scripture.
 

Robinson Crusoe

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Feb 15, 2010
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It isn't that had to Pay Satan a ransom, the idea is that he did so to show He is just. God had has the ability and could easily have taken mankind form Satan. However, since Adam and Eve willingly submitted to the sin the idea is that they willingly fell into Satan's control. There ore God purchased them back.While the Eastern Orthodox do hold this position it is not theirs. This was the view of the entire church for the first 1000 years. The western Church left this teaching when The Catholic church accepted the ideas put forth by Anselm of Canterbury, a Catholic theologian.

I don;t see this as a small matter because I think it would clear up a lot of the problems the modern church faces. You have the Catholic church which fo many years over emphasized works and now we have the Protestant church which over emphasizes faith, both almost to the exclusion of the other. I think most western Christians believe Christ died for their sins but don't know exactly how. Many say Christ died to appease the wrath of God against man. There are so many problems between this idea and Scripture.

I think there is at least some truth to what you are saying and it is interesting. But, my perspective is different from yours, because as a Protestant, I saw all the squabbles among the many Protestant denominations. And the attitude of one denomination to the next, seemed ridiculous. Often they went so far as to claim to be the one true Christian denomination, to the exclusion of all others! Where I was sitting, that seemed absurd.

What always struck me about the Protestant-Catholic divide, was the debate seemed a lot like the one College Professors were forcing their students to have: nature versus nurture. In the end, the answer was always both!, but they refused to accept that. I guess, that would of killed the debate! And that is my point, they wanted to pick a fight, wether it made any sense or not. I remember somebody like that from 7th grade and he wouldn't take no for an answer, either!

Well, fighting doesn't = bad and it seems like The Catholics retained a strong identity throughout Catholic States, which were well defined by faith and subdivided by blood, whereas Protestants, forged a sphere of their own. Also, it would appear, The Orthodox did the same; God bless them all.

It seems like today, we are being mashed together, in a very uncomfortable mess. Quite frankly, I wish we had been left alone, in isolation, to whatever form of Christianity and Blood, dominated our great, great, great grandparents!


 

farouk

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2009
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It's not a question of which church a person might belong to.

We all need our sins forgiven, and faith in the sin cleansing blood of Christ shed at the Cross is the way, and the only way.
 

Robinson Crusoe

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Feb 15, 2010
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It's not a question of which church a person might belong to.

We all need our sins forgiven, and faith in the sin cleansing blood of Christ shed at the Cross is the way, and the only way.

You're right, but I don't think our "diversity is a strength."
wink.gif


All this "culture clashing" is a big bummer and bummers are discouraging and dis-courage is the opposite of en-courage. So, I don't think this culture clashing is making us more courageous, than we used to be; I think it is making us more cowardly, than we used to be and that is a bummer!

Here's President's Bush and Clinton singing about smashing our religious, racial and ethnic cultures. Although, the whole thing is sublimated into "anti-war rage."

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Here's a very funny song,

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
 

pastorlesofm

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Jun 28, 2008
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Because many people are turned off to God because of how they view Him in the Bible -as wrathful, mean, cruel, etc,---and
ask me many questions about all the contradictions found in the Bible ---help me with an answer about:

Why would a loving Father want blood from innocents? His little innocent creatures, lambs, His Son...?

Quoting the Bible doesn't count because they reject such "nonsense".
Their brains want to logically "get" ---W-H-Y?

Any help? If you say go to Hebrews 9 - it doesn't help them. It does not answer the question why?

Then, they don't want to believe in a God that would put His Son thru being a Blood Sacrifice.
Purposely, they reject the thought of such a Father as this.

What is in the mind of God that He likes lambs killed? Or does He? Is it a made up ritual of early Man's?
I need logic. Is there any?

Thanks,
smile.gif
Miss Hepburn

God Bless You Sister Chris, I have a home-aide who lost her 12 tear old son due to a brain tumor, she asks me the same questions you are asked. Non-believers many times refer to the Lord only when things go wrong, and very little praise when He blesses. I think that a good study of the Book of Job might be helpful, we would see the disappointments that Job faced as well as see his faith in God. Faith in God is our big key to overcoming, turning disappointments into appointments with the Lord. I pray this might help both of us. Love You in Jesus Name
 
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Butch5

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Homer Ga.
I read your blog.
I agree with your issues against Penal Substitution and the Satisfaction explanation, But have problems with the Ransom explanation also.
You really need to read my post 56.
The Ransom explanation has Christ dying to “buy back” everyone from satan. We start out slaves to satan by our choice and have given ourselves over to him, but we can make the choice to change masters, without owing satan anything and God does not have to buy us away since He does not “owe” satan anything for having us back. All we have to do is accept God’s free undeserving gift of Love in the form of forgiveness, but we do not like to take charity. Satan is a powerful spiritual being that must be controlled by power greater than human ability alone and that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit that came after Christ went to the cross.
The great tempter satan, does get us to decide to sin, and satan does lots of destruction throughout this world, but that winds up helping those that are just a little willing to accept God most wonderful free gift of Love in the form of forgiveness.
How does the Ransom solution help us to accept God’s forgiveness (Love)?
How does the Ransom solution show we are Children of God by God seeing to it that we are disciplining (punishing of the guilty)?
How do we know we have been forgiven of much so we will Love much?
How does the ransom solution show we have free will, since it is not by our own free will we remain slaves to satan?

Hi Bling,

I am sorry, I didn’t notice your post here. These are some very good questions and I will attempt to answer them for you. You are correct, God does not owe Satan anything, however, the question must be asked, why didn't God just destroy Satan and take mankind back? God has the power to destroy Satan and regain Adam, yet He didn't. I believe Irenaeus give a good explanation on why God decided to pay the ransom.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus, c.180 Against Heresies, Book 5 Chapter 1
He was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John.

And since the apostasy tyrannized over us unjustly, and, though we were by nature the property of the omnipotent God, alienated us contrary to nature, rendering us its own disciples, the Word of God, powerful in all things, and not defective with regard to His own justice, did righteously turn against that apostasy, and redeem from it His own property, not by violent means, as the [apostasy] had obtained dominion over us at the beginning, when it insatiably snatched away what was not its own, but by means of persuasion, as became a God of counsel, who does not use violent means to obtain what He desires; so that neither should justice be infringed upon, nor the ancient handiwork of God go to destruction.

Here is the dilemma I see, Adam and Eve willingly chose to listen to Satan, thereby falling under his control of their own will. Yes, they were tricked, but they still willingly listened to him, Thus they became enslaved to Satan. As Irenaeus indicates justice required that mankind be purchased back. I believe that if Adam and Eve had not willingly followed Satan, God could have just taken them. Irenaeus also indicates that it was necessary for man to overcome Satan, since this was not possible with a mortal man, Christ was sent to do so.

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus c. 180 Against Heresies, Book 4 Chapter 24
He was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John.

As I have pointed out in the preceding book, the apostle did, in the first place, instruct the Gentiles to depart from the superstition of idols, and to worship one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and the Framer of the whole creation; and that His Son was His Word, by whom He founded all things; and that He, in the last times, was made a man among men; that He reformed the human race, but destroyed and conquered the enemy of man, and gave to His handiwork victory against the adversary.


No God did not owe anything to Satan, but into order to remain just and righteous, he purchased back his own possession as Irenaeus put it.

Bling---The Ransom explanation has Christ dying to “buy back” everyone from satan. We start out slaves to satan by our choice and have given ourselves over to him, but we can make the choice to change masters, without owing satan anything and God does not have to buy us away since He does not “owe” satan anything for having us back. All we have to do is accept God’s free undeserving gift of Love in the form of forgiveness, but we do not like to take charity. Satan is a powerful spiritual being that must be controlled by power greater than human ability alone and that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit that came after Christ went to the cross.

On the contrary, how could we start out salves to Satan when Christ has already redeemed mankind? You see we can choose because mankind has been redeemed. I believe Irenaeus makes a good argument as to why God purchased mankind back as opposedto ttaking mankind back.

Bling---How does the Ransom solution help us to accept God’s forgiveness (Love)?

I'm not sure I follow you here.

Bling---How does the Ransom solution show we are Children of God by God seeing to it that we are disciplining (punishing of the guilty)?

The atonement theory doesn't show how one is a child of God. It shows how God made a way of reconciliation so that one could be a child of God. Regarding disciple, I went back and read your post 56. You said Christ suffered our punishment at the hands of Satan because we could not endure the punishment. However, the punishment for sin is death and we all die. We all sin and we all die, so we are suffering our punishment. The consequences of our sin have not been removed, we will die. Paul said the wages of sin is death.

Bling---How do we know we have been forgiven of much so we will Love much?

This isn't an atonement question, it is a based on hte faithfulness of God. forgiveness came after the atonement, after mankind was set free. God has given us a way to receive forgiveness, it is through fath in Christ,

Bling---How does the ransom solution show we have free will, since it is not by our own free will we remain slaves to satan?

If one is a slave to Satan it is by their free will. Christ has redeemed mankind to be able to choose God. Because man is no longer a slave to Satan he is free to give himself to God.
 

bling

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May 5, 2009
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Part 1
Butch5 said:
I am sorry, I didn’t notice your post here. These are some very good questions and I will attempt to answer them for you. You are correct, God does not owe Satan anything, however, the question must be asked, why didn't God just destroy Satan and take mankind back? God has the power to destroy Satan and regain Adam, yet He didn't. I believe Irenaeus give a good explanation on why God decided to pay the ransom.
I see an excellent reason for God allowing a limited satan to roam the earth. There are things satan can do that God cannot or will not do Himself directly, but would allow satan to do. The tragedies that satan does allows (unfortunately) wonderful opportunities for good people to accept and grow Godly type Love (man’s objective while on earth). Good can come from any tragedy if good people step up to the opportunity.
Butch5 said:
The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 1
Irenaeus, c.180 Against Heresies, Book 5 Chapter 1
He was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John.
I am familiar with what we think are some of the works of Irenaeus and do not agree with some of his ideas. I am much more in agreement with what we think we have of Polycarp, but that is not to say Irenaeus followed his teaching completely. The Bible seems to be the only book that we have that was protected and preserved by the Holy Spirit (24,000+ manuscripts, 8000+ in Greek, 96+% word for word consistent and 100% consistent in content).


Butch5 said:
And since the apostasy tyrannized over us unjustly, and, though we were by nature the property of the omnipotent God, alienated us contrary to nature, rendering us its own disciples, the Word of God, powerful in all things, and not defective with regard to His own justice, did righteously turn against that apostasy, and redeem from it His own property, not by violent means, as the [apostasy] had obtained dominion over us at the beginning, when it insatiably snatched away what was not its own, but by means of persuasion, as became a God of counsel, who does not use violent means to obtain what He desires; so that neither should justice be infringed upon, nor the ancient handiwork of God go to destruction.
I do not blame satan for my being his slave, but only myself since it was by my choice. I can also chose to be a servant of God and I can also chose to give up my position in God’s family to go back and be a slave of satan.

Butch5 said:
Here is the dilemma I see, Adam and Eve willingly chose to listen to Satan, thereby falling under his control of their own will. Yes, they were tricked, but they still willingly listened to him, Thus they became enslaved to Satan. As Irenaeus indicates justice required that mankind be purchased back. I believe that if Adam and Eve had not willingly followed Satan, God could have just taken them. Irenaeus also indicates that it was necessary for man to overcome Satan, since this was not possible with a mortal man, Christ was sent to do so.
Adam and Eve sinned by eating the fruit. Eve could have listened to satan words all she wanted to, but needed to seek wise council, before doing what “she” really wanted to do. Adam never listened to satan and was not deceived by anyone , but did “listen” to his wife (the idea seems to be that Adam had grown so much in love with Eve [more than God] he could not live without her and thus wanted to go to where ever she was going).

Butch5 said:
As I have pointed out in the preceding book, the apostle did, in the first place, instruct the Gentiles to depart from the superstition of idols, and to worship one God, the Creator of heaven and earth, and the Framer of the whole creation; and that His Son was His Word, by whom He founded all things; and that He, in the last times, was made a man among men; that He reformed the human race, but destroyed and conquered the enemy of man, and gave to His handiwork victory against the adversary.
Destroying and conquering satan is not the same as paying him off.
Butch5 said:
No God did not owe anything to Satan, but into order to remain just and righteous, he purchased back his own possession as Irenaeus put it.
Paying someone you do not owe is not fair and just. It could be “merciful” to him if it was good for him, but Christ’s torturous murder on the cross was not merciful for satan?

Part 2
Butch5 said:
On the contrary, how could we start out salves to Satan when Christ has already redeemed mankind? You see we can choose because mankind has been redeemed. I believe Irenaeus makes a good argument as to why God purchased mankind back as opposedto ttaking mankind back.
God does not forcible take mankind back or somehow purchase man back. Man is always a free will agent that chooses who he will follow. All mature adult humans will at some early on point chose to sin and follow satan, but that means they will feel the burden of being satan’s slave and hopefully want to get out from being under his rule, which is great. All they have to do is accept God’s forgiveness and they become God’s servant with virtually no burden. People do not accept God’s free undeserving and unconditional gift because that is accepting charity and no one likes to take charity. The accepting of forgiveness is accepting God’s Love and “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”. This seems to be the only way for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
Butch5 said:
I'm not sure I follow you here.
OK. Everything that God has done and is doing seems to be for the help of willing individuals to fulfill their objective (God is showing extreme unselfishness). If the “Ransom Theory” is right then it would help willing individuals to accept God’s Love in the form of forgiveness.


Butch5 said:
The atonement theory doesn't show how one is a child of God. It shows how God made a way of reconciliation so that one could be a child of God. Regarding disciple, I went back and read your post 56. You said Christ suffered our punishment at the hands of Satan because we could not endure the punishment. However, the punishment for sin is death and we all die. We all sin and we all die, so we are suffering our punishment. The consequences of our sin have not been removed, we will die. Paul said the wages of sin is death.
I think you missed my point in post 56. We know we are Children of God because God disciplines His children. We are disciplined with the punishment we receive by realizing the person we Love the most was tortured and killed for our sins, we are the guilty person and Christ is our older innocent brother, so we hurt with His hurting, especially since we caused Him to do what he did. God as our father is seeing to it that we are disciplined/punished for our transgressions. God out of His Love is accepting this alternative method of our being punished, fairly and justly, since it produces the desired benefits of punishing the guilty.
The sting of physical death has been removed with Christ’s resurrection and that is not the price of sin, but the second death of the guilty is (hell).

Butch5 said:
This isn't an atonement question, it is a based on hte faithfulness of God. forgiveness came after the atonement, after mankind was set free. God has given us a way to receive forgiveness, it is through fath in Christ,
I agree with you to some extent. Forgiveness comes after we have been disciplined for our transgressions. If God forgave and forgot our sins first then it would not be fair to punish us. The punishment we receive from Christ going to the cross enables God to forgive us.
Butch5 said:
If one is a slave to Satan it is by their free will. Christ has redeemed mankind to be able to choose God. Because man is no longer a slave to Satan he is free to give himself to God.
Sounds alright, but did man chose to be a slave of satan prior to the cross?
Do all mature adults choose to be a slave of satan at some time or do some today avoid ever being a slave of satan.
 

ChristWarrior

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Hosea 6:6 (New King James Version)
6 For I desire mercy (love in the greek manuscripts) and not sacrifice,
And the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


read your bible.
hosea 6:6


Isaiah 1:11 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats!
Isaiah 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. 14Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

10Hear the word of the LORD,
you rulers of(Y) (Z) Sodom!
Give ear to the teaching of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11(AA) "What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the LORD;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.

READ YOUR BIBLE BEFORE YOU POST IN IGNORANCE! lol srry but srsly ppl read teh bible and dont make baby jesus face palm