It is actually the opposite. If the Father is the only one who knows it, and the Son doesn't, then the Son isn't Omniscient.
Kenosis heresy
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It is actually the opposite. If the Father is the only one who knows it, and the Son doesn't, then the Son isn't Omniscient.
Just so you know never in a million years would I believe in oneness heresy. You can say it over and over until you are blue in the face but my mind would never reject the truth in exchange for a lie.
hope this helps !!!
I am preaching the Trinity here.
If you will never stop being a Tritheist, and this is your avowed stance, then there is not much hope for you.
Even the creeds show forth that if someone rejects the Trinity for Tritheism, they will be lost in eternity.
You also have to ignore the scriptures that I have set forth in support of my pov for the rest of your life.
He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation.All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.
my succinct version
All the fulness of the Godhead, in the kjv.He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation.All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.
my succinct version
This (and many other passages) are properly presented in the King James Bible, which says: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
This happens to be one verse where there is no difference between the Received Text and the Critical Text.
Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ
Westcott and Hort / [NA27 variants]
ὃς ἐν μορφῇ θεοῦ ὑπάρχων οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα θεῷ,
However, there is quite a difference in how ἁρπαγμὸν (harpagmon) has been translated, since it can mean one of two things:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 725: ἁρπαγμός
ἁρπαγμός, ἁρπαγμου, ὁ (ἁρπάζω);
1. the act of seizing, robbery (so Plutarch, de book educ. c. 15 (others 14, 37), vol. 2:12 a. the only instance of its use noted in secular authors).
2. a thing seized or to be seized, booty: ἁρπαγμόνἡγεῖσθαι τί to deem anything a prlze — a thing to be seized upon or to be held fast, retained, Philippians 2:6
Even though Thayer applies the second meaning, the King James Bible correctly gives us the first meaning, which is theologically correct. For Christ, it was not robbery to be equal with God, because He Himself is God, and the Father calls Him God.
But when we see it in the NASV, it changes the meaning of who Christ is. It gives the impression that Jesus was WRONGFULLY trying to be equal with God ("equality with God a thing to be grasped", which is not rightfully His), therefore in His humanity he divested Himself of His deity. Thus the Kenosis theory came into existence.
"The term kenosis refers to the doctrine of Christ’s “self-emptying” in His incarnation". But Christ did NOT empty Himself of His divine attributes. But He did set aside His divine privileges and prerogatives. BIG DIFFERENCE.
I think you are misunderstanding the NASB.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.
I think the idea there is that equality with God wouldn't be something Jesus stole if He had asserted it, being God, but instead didn't, instead taking on humanity, a body made of flesh.
Much love!
To be truthful to scripture Jesus was not all knowing and omnipresent while on earth. He had to learn of the Father and His ways through scripture and His communion with Him. It is what made Him fully man. God was God without the divine attributes that transcend humanity, to show His essential nature and love could overcome sin and what we would describe and being impossible.
Jesus Himself declared He did not know the end times, and who will be appointed to sit with Him. This statement alone describes a limited nature of His existence, as opposed to the Father, and the Holy Spirit. The mystery is why He had to leave for the Holy Spirit to descend, but probably this is about until Jesus fulfilled going to be back with the Father, the age of grace and the church had not actually begun. The final acceptance of Jesus into the Fathers presence was the fulfilment of Israel and the chosen called people of God.
Actually Scripture says no such thing. Quite the opposite. Here is one example from John 1:43-50:
43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me. 44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. 50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
In this one example we see Jesus acting as God. When He said "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" Christ has examined Nathanael's heart and rendered judgment. And only God knows hearts. Then Jesus showed His omniscience by telling Nathanael exactly where he was BEFORE Philip called him. Jesus was nowhere in sight when Philip went to seek Nathanael. But He knew his exact location. As a result of this disclosure, Nathanael was convinced that Jesus is God by calling Him "the Son of God, and the King of Israel" (and only God is King of Israel, while "Son of God" meant God to the Jews).
VictoryinJesus
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2 Corinthians 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
'And He said unto them,
"These are the words which I spake unto you,
.. while I was yet with you,
.... that all things must be fulfilled,
...... which were written in the law of Moses,
........ and in the prophets, and in the psalms,
.......... concerning Me."
Then opened He their understanding,
.. that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them,
"Thus it is written,
.. and thus it behoved Christ to suffer,
.... and to rise from the dead the third day:
...... And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached
........ in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things.
.. And, behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you:
.... but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,
...... until ye be endued with power from on high.'
(Luke 24:44-49)
Hello there, @Christophany,
This passage fascinates me: for the risen Lord, speaking to His disciples, talks of His role as the Messiah (i.e., Christ) in the third person. There is the same sense of detachment when He speaks to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, when again He is referring to what had been written concerning Him in the books of Moses, in the Psalms, and in the Prophets. He speaks here as the Son of God, and in the ages to come God will show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us, 'through', Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:7) Who took human form as Son of Man in order to redeem (Galatians 4:4). God was 'in Christ' reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:9).
'But when the fulness of the time was come,
God sent forth His Son,
made of a woman ...'
Praise God!
With love in Christ Jesus
Christ
"These are the words which I spake unto you,
.. while I was yet with you,
.... that all things must be fulfilled,
...... which were written in the law of Moses,
........ and in the prophets, and in the psalms,
.......... concerning Me."
Then opened He their understanding,
.. that they might understand the scriptures,
And said unto them,
"Thus it is written,
.. and thus it behoved Christ to suffer,
.... and to rise from the dead the third day:
...... And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached
........ in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
And ye are witnesses of these things.
.. And, behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you:
.... but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,
...... until ye be endued with power from on high.'
(Luke 24:44-49)
Hello there, @Christophany,
This passage fascinates me: for the risen Lord, speaking to His disciples, talks of His role as the Messiah (i.e., Christ) in the third person. There is the same sense of detachment when He speaks to the disciples on the road to Emmaus, when again He is referring to what had been written concerning Him in the books of Moses, in the Psalms, and in the Prophets. He speaks here as the Son of God, and in the ages to come God will show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness towards us, 'through', Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:7) Who took human form as Son of Man in order to redeem (Galatians 4:4). God was 'in Christ' reconciling the world unto Himself (2 Corinthians 5:9).
'But when the fulness of the time was come,
God sent forth His Son,
made of a woman ...'
Praise God!
With love in Christ Jesus
Christ
Last edited:
Kenosis heresy
OP ^
I wouldn't label that a heresy or flatout say I agree with everything that group declares or how they define their beliefs.
God had an intended purpose for Sending His Word To Earth.
We are told flatout,
WHO Purposed..IN WHAT....WHY...WHEN...HOW
Eph 1:
[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Heb 1:
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Luke 1:
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Heb 1:
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, "I will be" to him a Father, and "he shall be " to me a Son?
Phil 2:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But "made himself " of no reputation, and "took upon him" the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Clearly God reveals How He revealed Himself to be Among Human men On Earth and Seen By Human men on Earth and Heard By Human men On Earth
That Human men On Earth might Believe IN Him.
A form/shape is a Body.
Gods Word comes to Ears through Gods Voice.
Clearly Corrupt Human men "Can Not See the Body or Hear the Voice of God" ...without a Barrier...
To Protect Gods Holiness.
To Protect Man's anninalition.
John 5:
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
* The Body of Jesus- Where did that come from?
Heb 10:[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou Prepared me :
The Mystery:
God Took upon His Ever Existing Self...
a Body He Prepared to Look Like a Human man;
To Come to Earth;
To BE Seen By Human men, "as A Servant of God";
and Heard By Human men, "having Gods Word in the Mouth of that prepared Body";
Accepted By Human men; (Lawfully/ man's Law)
A Judean
A Jew
A Descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David (establishing Lawful right to King David's Earthly Throne of ISRAEL, Gods People).
The Body is Established
The Word is Established
So the question is:
What about Gods Spirit?
Continue:
Taken
OP ^
I wouldn't label that a heresy or flatout say I agree with everything that group declares or how they define their beliefs.
God had an intended purpose for Sending His Word To Earth.
We are told flatout,
WHO Purposed..IN WHAT....WHY...WHEN...HOW
Eph 1:
[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[10] That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Heb 1:
[2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Luke 1:
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Heb 1:
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, "I will be" to him a Father, and "he shall be " to me a Son?
Phil 2:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But "made himself " of no reputation, and "took upon him" the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Clearly God reveals How He revealed Himself to be Among Human men On Earth and Seen By Human men on Earth and Heard By Human men On Earth
That Human men On Earth might Believe IN Him.
A form/shape is a Body.
Gods Word comes to Ears through Gods Voice.
Clearly Corrupt Human men "Can Not See the Body or Hear the Voice of God" ...without a Barrier...
To Protect Gods Holiness.
To Protect Man's anninalition.
John 5:
[37] And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
* The Body of Jesus- Where did that come from?
Heb 10:[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou Prepared me :
The Mystery:
God Took upon His Ever Existing Self...
a Body He Prepared to Look Like a Human man;
To Come to Earth;
To BE Seen By Human men, "as A Servant of God";
and Heard By Human men, "having Gods Word in the Mouth of that prepared Body";
Accepted By Human men; (Lawfully/ man's Law)
A Judean
A Jew
A Descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David (establishing Lawful right to King David's Earthly Throne of ISRAEL, Gods People).
The Body is Established
The Word is Established
So the question is:
What about Gods Spirit?
Continue:
Taken
Continue:
Gods Spirit...does multiple things. How God Delivers, Gives, Puts, His Breath, His Spirit IN, UPON, WITH a Human Body/Soul; For What Purpose; and IF and WHEN and WHY Gods Breath, Gods Spirit can be Departed/Removed from a Human Body/Soul
Taking note...it was NOT only just a Prepared Body, God took upon himself...
He specifically Took Upon Himself the SEED of Abraham.
Heb 2:16
Remember...Abraham, the Faithful Servant, the Promised Father of many Nations (People).?
Gen: 17:4
Remember ...the day Abraham was Blessed by the king of Salem (Jerusalem),?
Heb 7:1
and Abraham was Glad, And Saw Jesus' Day?
John 8:56
Remember ...Abraham's "Faithful" Stock (Natural) offspring Promised the "seed" of God...and that is not man seeds, but one SEED, who IS Christ?
Gal 3:16
* Spirit
Remember men Receive Blessings and TASTING of the "enlightenment OF" the Holy Spirit for hearing the word of God?
Heb 6: 4-5
(Remember IF after TASTING the Enlightment of The Holy Spirit...they fall away/Reject the Enlightenment...and then try to Renew their "repentance", they Openly SHAME The Son of God)
Heb 6:6
Remember God Breathed INTO Adam, the Breath of Life (and all natural Living men have the same)?
Gen 2:7
Remember Jesus Breathed ON his Disciples?
John 20:22
Remember like a dove & LiIGHTing landed ON Jesus' Shoulder?
Matt 3:16
Remember when men wanted to know When Heaven & Earth would pass away? And "JESUS said". (Not yet revealed The Christ) only HIS Father in Heaven Knew?
Matt 24:36
Remember when Jesus asked his disciples who men...and they "Thought" he is? And no one could answer until God gave them the Answer, that JESUS IS THE CHRIST?
Matt 16:17
Remember when Jesus revealed "THE" Father is IN Him, and He IN the Father?
Matt 10:38
Remember Jesus saying to his disciples the Spirit of Truth Dwelt WITH them and WOULD Dwell IN them?
John 14:17
Remember Jesus saying another Comforter would Dwell WITH Them? forever?
John 14:16
* Remember Jesus said there would be "a day" his disciples would KNOW Jesus is IN "HIS" Father and "JESUS' disciples IN JESUS, and JESUS IN them?
John 14:20
* Remember "a day" when JESUS was IN Them and the Father was WITH them?
Acts 2: 3-4
* Remember "that day" was the day they received UPON Them POWER from The Holy Spirit?
Acts 1:8
Remember Scripture Revealing CHRIST IS the POWER of God?
1 Cor 1:24
And:
John 17:
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory "which I had with thee before the world was."
Clearly: God Purposed in Himself...To Reveal Himself AS AN Example TO and FOR Earthly mankind...to become Reconcilled unto God through HIS WORD and HIS POWER, once and Forever...
And BE-Come Bodily RISEN UP and "Glorified" By the Presence of Gods Bright "Light" reflected UPON a man.
I don't believe God Emptied Himself when He Appeared ON Earth...but rather Reserved Revealing the WHOLE of Him...all at once...
And KEPT in Reserve WITHOUT Revealing the Brightness of His Glory that He HAD Before the World Was.
* Jesus Showed mankind WAYS God Blesses men...
IN, ON, WITH Gods Word, Gods Life, Gods Truth, Gods Power?
Yes.
* Empty Himself?
No
* Came Humbled, Without Reputation?
Yes.
* God Supernaturally Revealed His Reputation?
Yes.
* Came to Earth WITH His Visible Glory?
No.
(And Regarding OSAS...
* I believe...Gods enlightment, Gods Breath, in, upon, with a man, can leave a man's body and soul.
* I believe Gods Spirit via Christ, IN a man, can Leave the Body of man, but "can Never Leave" the man's soul or Born Again spirit
* OSAS- yes..."conditional" on once, having received...is Forever.)
Glory to God,
Taken
Gods Spirit...does multiple things. How God Delivers, Gives, Puts, His Breath, His Spirit IN, UPON, WITH a Human Body/Soul; For What Purpose; and IF and WHEN and WHY Gods Breath, Gods Spirit can be Departed/Removed from a Human Body/Soul
Taking note...it was NOT only just a Prepared Body, God took upon himself...
He specifically Took Upon Himself the SEED of Abraham.
Heb 2:16
Remember...Abraham, the Faithful Servant, the Promised Father of many Nations (People).?
Gen: 17:4
Remember ...the day Abraham was Blessed by the king of Salem (Jerusalem),?
Heb 7:1
and Abraham was Glad, And Saw Jesus' Day?
John 8:56
Remember ...Abraham's "Faithful" Stock (Natural) offspring Promised the "seed" of God...and that is not man seeds, but one SEED, who IS Christ?
Gal 3:16
* Spirit
Remember men Receive Blessings and TASTING of the "enlightenment OF" the Holy Spirit for hearing the word of God?
Heb 6: 4-5
(Remember IF after TASTING the Enlightment of The Holy Spirit...they fall away/Reject the Enlightenment...and then try to Renew their "repentance", they Openly SHAME The Son of God)
Heb 6:6
Remember God Breathed INTO Adam, the Breath of Life (and all natural Living men have the same)?
Gen 2:7
Remember Jesus Breathed ON his Disciples?
John 20:22
Remember like a dove & LiIGHTing landed ON Jesus' Shoulder?
Matt 3:16
Remember when men wanted to know When Heaven & Earth would pass away? And "JESUS said". (Not yet revealed The Christ) only HIS Father in Heaven Knew?
Matt 24:36
Remember when Jesus asked his disciples who men...and they "Thought" he is? And no one could answer until God gave them the Answer, that JESUS IS THE CHRIST?
Matt 16:17
Remember when Jesus revealed "THE" Father is IN Him, and He IN the Father?
Matt 10:38
Remember Jesus saying to his disciples the Spirit of Truth Dwelt WITH them and WOULD Dwell IN them?
John 14:17
Remember Jesus saying another Comforter would Dwell WITH Them? forever?
John 14:16
* Remember Jesus said there would be "a day" his disciples would KNOW Jesus is IN "HIS" Father and "JESUS' disciples IN JESUS, and JESUS IN them?
John 14:20
* Remember "a day" when JESUS was IN Them and the Father was WITH them?
Acts 2: 3-4
* Remember "that day" was the day they received UPON Them POWER from The Holy Spirit?
Acts 1:8
Remember Scripture Revealing CHRIST IS the POWER of God?
1 Cor 1:24
And:
John 17:
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory "which I had with thee before the world was."
Clearly: God Purposed in Himself...To Reveal Himself AS AN Example TO and FOR Earthly mankind...to become Reconcilled unto God through HIS WORD and HIS POWER, once and Forever...
And BE-Come Bodily RISEN UP and "Glorified" By the Presence of Gods Bright "Light" reflected UPON a man.
I don't believe God Emptied Himself when He Appeared ON Earth...but rather Reserved Revealing the WHOLE of Him...all at once...
And KEPT in Reserve WITHOUT Revealing the Brightness of His Glory that He HAD Before the World Was.
* Jesus Showed mankind WAYS God Blesses men...
IN, ON, WITH Gods Word, Gods Life, Gods Truth, Gods Power?
Yes.
* Empty Himself?
No
* Came Humbled, Without Reputation?
Yes.
* God Supernaturally Revealed His Reputation?
Yes.
* Came to Earth WITH His Visible Glory?
No.
(And Regarding OSAS...
* I believe...Gods enlightment, Gods Breath, in, upon, with a man, can leave a man's body and soul.
* I believe Gods Spirit via Christ, IN a man, can Leave the Body of man, but "can Never Leave" the man's soul or Born Again spirit
* OSAS- yes..."conditional" on once, having received...is Forever.)
Glory to God,
Taken
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