Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

Waiting on him · Aug 20, 2020

BarnyFife said:
There was a movie about his life. "Hell And Mr. Fudge." I think they owe me some royalties from my "Ghost And Mr. Chicken" movie. lol

Lol, we live about an hour and a half from Mt Airy.

amadeus · Aug 20, 2020

Ron Coates said:
I think that if we are honest with ourselves we will admit that it is not necessarily the word of God that we know, but rather our interpretation of the word that we know. And we may have it right. To teach me what He means regarding doctrine, He has taught me to seek Him for understanding until I lay hold of it. I understand that most don't have the time or energy to do this which is one reason why I dig as I do.
I never expect anyone to take my word for it as I'm fallible and though I give it my best effort, I sometimes miss it. I constantly ask God to quickly show me if and when I make mistakes. And He does. I model a stance that has worked for me and though God may work in another differently, He always agrees with His word. If my belief contradicts the word at any point then there is something wrong with my understanding.
In running my race, there are hurdles that I need to jump over and not get hung up on so I can complete my race successfully. The clearer my doctrine the smoother my race will go.
My doctrine says that Christ died once though I take up my cross daily and often use it. This is the tricky part. I was at a retreat once and during a discussion, it dawned on me that when I use my cross, the repented sin goes to the time when Jesus hung on the tree. I said, "Is it possible that when I sin and repent, taking it to my cross, could it increase the suffering that Jesus went through?" As if waiting for this question, the immediate response was, "do you want to take that chance?"
My goal is not to cause anyone to feel guilty about repenting, it's just something to ponder. When we repent He is faithful and just to forgive us. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. To me, this is something like time traveling which I believe God can and does do. I hope this will clear the air about this issue. "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." Proverbs 25:2 NIV Shalom

Keep on striving!

BarneyFife · Aug 20, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Is there something wrong with vulnerability? I find it to be a virtue...

There is certainly no angst on my part.

BarneyFife · Aug 20, 2020

Waiting on him said:
Lol, we live about an hour and a half from Mt Airy.

My people are from eastern TN so we talk purt' near like Andy. Don Knotts is from WV and that's about half-Yankee but he's a nice enough feller anyhow. Mayberry Days festival ever spill over into your neck o' the woods?

Waiting on him · Aug 20, 2020

BarnyFife said:
My people are from eastern TN so we talk purt' near like Andy. Don Knotts is from WV and that's about half-Yankee but he's a nice enough feller anyhow. Mayberry Days festival ever spill over into your neck o' the woods?

My daughter went with her children last year and had a blast. She tried to get us to come, we were at Stone Mountain NC at the time, wish we would have went.

bbyrd009 · Aug 20, 2020

Ron Coates said:
I think that if we are honest with ourselves we will admit that it is not necessarily the word of God that we know, but rather our interpretation of the word that we know. And we may have it right. To teach me what He means regarding doctrine, He has taught me to seek Him for understanding until I lay hold of it. I understand that most don't have the time or energy to do this which is one reason why I dig as I do.
I never expect anyone to take my word for it as I'm fallible and though I give it my best effort, I sometimes miss it. I constantly ask God to quickly show me if and when I make mistakes. And He does. I model a stance that has worked for me and though God may work in another differently, He always agrees with His word. If my belief contradicts the word at any point then there is something wrong with my understanding.
In running my race, there are hurdles that I need to jump over and not get hung up on so I can complete my race successfully. The clearer my doctrine the smoother my race will go.
My doctrine says that Christ died once though I take up my cross daily and often use it. This is the tricky part. I was at a retreat once and during a discussion, it dawned on me that when I use my cross, the repented sin goes to the time when Jesus hung on the tree. I said, "Is it possible that when I sin and repent, taking it to my cross, could it increase the suffering that Jesus went through?" As if waiting for this question, the immediate response was, "do you want to take that chance?"
My goal is not to cause anyone to feel guilty about repenting, it's just something to ponder. When we repent He is faithful and just to forgive us. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. To me, this is something like time traveling which I believe God can and does do. I hope this will clear the air about this issue. "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings." Proverbs 25:2 NIV Shalom

No son of man may die for another's sins; the life that sins, dies

BarneyFife · Aug 20, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
No son of man may die for another's sins; the life that sins, dies

Nice Paradox, there.

Truman · Aug 20, 2020

Hi. I'm talking about sanctification which I believe is a process. For example, those who are washing their robes in the blood of the lamb are doing what I'm talking about. It is what 1 Peter 1:9 is talking about. This is not a justification issue. I believe that once one is justified and reborn spiritually of incorruptible seed, they are saved, period. It is dying to sin in order to be freed from it. I believe the apostle Paul talks about this.
I learned this at a retreat that preached the gospel of the Kingdom Of Heaven. After I had 3 days of teaching about what scripture really means, during which I saw the word handled like I never had seen before, glory to God, I then saw and experienced things that I say were the signs and wonders that are supposed to be the normal result of the gospel of the Kingdom of God being taught.
I know that many will not accept this teaching. My obligation to God is to speak the words that He has put in my mouth. You may not accept it now, but you may later on. God is big on planting seeds.
The blood of animals was able to cover sin but not remove it. The blood of Christ, although it has supernatural qualities to it, is in my understanding a metaphor for His atonement and the basis for healing, A.K.A. sanctification. I believe that this atonement is for spirit, soul, and body. There is a lot to be said about knowing one's need, otherwise, you don't know what you don't know. Shalom.

ReChoired · Aug 20, 2020

2 Chr. 34:19 said:
“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

“Their Worm Dieth Not”

The phrase, “their worm dieth not” is found in the following verses of the Gospel of Mark, in the New Testament [KJB]:

Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Jesus, in the Gospel of Mark in the NT, is quoting from the OT, in the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

How do we then understand the phrase, “their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched”?

In order to understand the phrase, “their worm dieth not”, etc., we need to read them in their immediate contexts, prayerfully, first, and compare each phrase with the surrounding verses and then also compare it to the whole of the Bible [as per Genesis 40:8; Isaiah 28:10,13; 1 Corinthians 2:3 KJB] in the same subject, asking Jesus what they mean; and He, by the Holy Spirit, will explain them.

The parallel passages of Mark 9:44,46,48 KJB are:

Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47 KJB - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

First of all, the verses speak of “Where ...”, in reference to a specific location, as seen in the previous verses, wherein it names the place, “go into hell”, “cast into hell”, “hellfire”.

Therefore, notice that Jesus, while quoting from Isaiah 66:24 KJB, repeats Himself several times, defining for us, so that we understand what He is saying:

Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:47 KJB - And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Please also notice the contrast between:

[1] “enter into life” [being Eternal Life, Heaven and the Kingdom of God], and,

[2] “go into [or 'cast into'] hell” [being eternal death, wherein there is no resurrection, nor life ever again, but only a dying by fire until one is forever dead and gone].

Please also notice, Mark 9:49-50 KJB, in that all [everyone, good or evil] will be salted with “fire” [1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJB; either by the [1] Holy Ghost [Matthew 3:11; Luke 3:16 KJB], or [2] Hellfire]:

Mark 9:49 KJB - For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Mark 9:50 KJB - Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Compare these to:

Matthew 5:13 KJB - Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Compare “cast out”, and “trodden under foot of men” to:

Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:2 KJB - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Luke 14:34 KJB - Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?

Luke 14:35 KJB - It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Therefore the “worm dieth not”, deals with “hell” portion, which is also tied to “the fire is not quenched”, or the “[hell] fire” portion, which will take place at the end of the final phase of Judgment - the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15 KJB.

Side note, for those who enjoy looking into the Koine Greek of some portion of text [not myself particularly, as scripture [KJB] is to be defined “line upon line”, not Hebrew upon Hebrew, nor Greek upon Greek, etc.]

G4663

Koine Greek: σκώληξ
Transliterated: skōlēx

Translated into King James Bible English, as:

“worm”, 3x, Mark 9:44,46,48 KJB

See also the (so-called) LXX [Septuagint, actually the gnostic Origen's Greek translation of the OT]:

Exodus 16:20,24; Deuteronomy 28:39; Job 2:9, 7:5, 25:6; Psalms 22:6 [21:7]; Proverbs 12:4, 25:20 [32:20]; Isaiah 14:11, 66:24; Jonah 4:7

Side note, the related Koine Greek word:

G4662

Koine Greek: σκωληκόβρωτος
Transliterated: skōlēkobrōtos

Translated into King James Bible English, as:

“eaten”, 1x, Acts 12:23 KJB
“worms”, 1x, Acts 12:23 KJB

ReChoired · Aug 20, 2020

2 Chr. 34:19 said:
“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

If we do a search throughout the Bible [KJB] for “worm” or “worms”, we see that it has several definitions:

“worm”, “worms”:

[1] a creature, a moth larva:

Isaiah 51:8 KJB - For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

[2] a creature, an earthworm, a maggot, a 'vermes', an invertebrate [no-back bone], that eat, or live in earth, decaying matter, and plants [worms are the grave 'clothes' a person wears in decaying and death]:

Exodus 16:20 KJB - Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

Exodus 16:24 KJB - And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

Deuteronomy 28:39 KJB - Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.

Job 7:5 KJB - My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.

Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job 21:26 KJB - They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.

Job 24:20 KJB - The womb shall forget him; the worm shall feed sweetly on him; he shall be no more remembered; and wickedness shall be broken as a tree.

Isaiah 14:11 KJB - Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Jonah 4:7 KJB - But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.

Micah 7:17 KJB - They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.

Acts 12:23 KJB - And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

[3] a “despised” persons life, a the life of a person who is “a reproach of men”, a “Jacob”:

Job 25:6 KJB - How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Psalms 22:6 KJB - But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Side note: Psalms 22 KJB, is about Christ Jesus [Psalms 22:1; Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34 KJB], the “propitiation” [Romans 3:5; 1 John 2:2, 4:10 KJB], who was made to be “sin for us” [2 Corinthians 5:21 KJB], and took our sins and the “wrath of God” [Romans 1:18 KJB] upon Himself.

Compare also Psalms 22:6 KJB to Daniel 12:2 KJB, in speaking of the wicked:

Daniel 12:2 KJB - And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Isaiah 41:14 KJB - Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Micah 7:17 KJB - They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of the earth: they shall be afraid of the LORD our God, and shall fear because of thee.

Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[4] also “corruption” and grave [clothes, worms cover the body], rotting [flesh], decay and despising:

Exodus 16:20 KJB - Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

Exodus 16:24 KJB - And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.

Side note, Exodus 16 KJB, deals with “the manna”, a type of the flesh, of either the sinner, or of the obedient Christ Jesus, see John 6:32, 6:51-53 KJB.

Job 7:5 KJB - My flesh is clothed with worms and clods of dust; my skin is broken, and become loathsome.

Job 17:14 KJB - I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister.

Job 19:26 KJB - And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Job 21:26 KJB - They shall lie down alike in the dust, and the worms shall cover them.

ReChoired · Aug 20, 2020

2 Chr. 34:19 said:
“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

So then, what does “their worm dieth not” mean?

Notice that the phrase “their worm” is singular and possessive.

It means that the person [lost*] that is cast into the hell[fire] will continue to exist [“dieth not”] until they, in all portions [“soul and body”; Matthew 10:28 KJB] are consumed totally by that hellfire [which fire will “not be quenched” [verb, 'to quench' put out] by anyone or any means]] into ashes [carbon].

Matthew 10:28 KJB - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

[lost*, the one who did not overcome sin by the indwelling of Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit, and did not receive the new name in the white stone, but remained instead a “Jacob” [a supplanter, overcome by sin], a “despised” person, a “reproach of men”, and “no man” [Psalms 22:6 KJB] [ie., not like obedient Christ Jesus, “the man” [1 Timothy 2:5 KJB], the “second” [1 Corinthians 15:47 KJB] and “last Adam” [1 Corinthians 15:45 KJB]], filled with “shame” and to have “everlasting contempt” [Daniel 12:2 KJB] upon them]

Let us consider how the Bible uses the word “quench[ed]”:

2 Samuel 14:7 KJB - And, behold, the whole family is risen against thine handmaid, and they said, Deliver him that smote his brother, that we may kill him, for the life of his brother whom he slew; and we will destroy the heir also: and so they shall quench my coal which is left, and shall not leave to my husband neither name nor remainder upon the earth.

2 Samuel 21:17 KJB - But Abishai the son of Zeruiah succoured him, and smote the Philistine, and killed him. Then the men of David sware unto him, saying, Thou shalt go no more out with us to battle, that thou quench not the light of Israel.

Job 18:5 KJB - Yea, the light of the wicked shall be put out, and the spark of his fire shall not shine.

Psalms 104:11 KJB - They give drink to every beast of the field: the wild asses quench their thirst.

Song of Solomon 8:7 KJB - Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it: if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it would utterly be contemned.

Isaiah 1:31 KJB - And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Isaiah 1:30 KJB - For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.

Isaiah 42:3 KJB - A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

Jeremiah 4:4 KJB - Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Jeremiah 21:12 KJB - O house of David, thus saith the LORD; Execute judgment in the morning, and deliver him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor, lest my fury go out like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Amos 5:6 KJB - Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour it, and there be none to quench it in Bethel.

Matthew 12:20 KJB - A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.

Ephesians 6:16 KJB - Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 KJB - Quench not the Spirit.

Numbers 11:2 KJB - And the people cried unto Moses; and when Moses prayed unto the LORD, the fire was quenched.

2 Kings 22:17 KJB - Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.

2 Chronicles 34:25 KJB - Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be poured out upon this place, and shall not be quenched.

Psalms 118:12 KJB - They compassed me about like bees; they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the LORD I will destroy them.

Isaiah 34:10 KJB - It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah 43:17 KJB - Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow.

Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jeremiah 7:20 KJB - Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Jeremiah 17:27 KJB - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Ezekiel 20:47 KJB - And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.

Ezekiel 20:48 KJB - And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

Side note: the wrath of God, and the fire that He sent against Jerusalem, was not “quenched” [not put out by anyone or anything], but burned, until it consumed the city unto ashes and rubble, and only smoke was left which ascended upward into the heavens and could be seen from far, which is a type unto the end-time all consuming hellfire:

Jeremiah 39:8 KJB - And the Chaldeans burned the king's house, and the houses of the people, with fire, and brake down the walls of Jerusalem.

Jeremiah 52:13 KJB - And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire:

2 Kings 25:9 KJB - And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire.

2 Chronicles 36:19 KJB - And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

Amos 2:5 KJB - But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.

Mark 9:43 KJB - And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:44 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:45 KJB - And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:46 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Mark 9:48 KJB - Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Hebrews 11:34 KJB - Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

Side note: For more on the all consuming Fire, that the wicked will Perish [John 3:16 KJB] in, please see the Appendix at the end of this study.

ReChoired · Aug 20, 2020

2 Chr. 34:19 said:
“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

The study might be stated like this:

“…We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God’s law. We read of the worm that dieth not and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of everyone that has permitted himself to be grafted into the stalk of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When too late he will see that sin is the transgression of God’s law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God’s wrath abides upon him. This is a fire unquenchable. Thus the soul and body of every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan, the first transgressor, strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins and receive forgiveness and grace unto salvation, will suffer the result of his course. …”

“… Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, “The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.”

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but [page 294-295] also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, “Amen!”

Said the angel, “Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe.” I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain. God's entire universe was clean, and the great controversy was forever ended. Wherever we looked, everything upon which the eye rested was beautiful and holy. And all the redeemed host, old and young, great and small, cast their glittering crowns at the feet of their Redeemer, and prostrated themselves in adoration before Him, and worshiped Him that liveth forever and ever. The beautiful new earth, with all its glory, was the eternal inheritance of the saints. The kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was then given to the saints of the Most High, who were to possess it forever, even forever and ever. …”

Consider that the summation goes like:

“... Said the angel, “The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon.” ...”

See the parallel definition:

[A1] “The worm of life shall not die; ...”

[B1] “... their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is ...”

[A2] “... the least particle ...”

[B2] “... for it to prey upon.”

ReChoired · Aug 20, 2020

2 Chr. 34:19 said:
“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

Thus quench is a verb. It means to deliberately put out by some external means. Yet there will be no deliverance from the fire, and none will put it out, and its heat intense like no other (Isaiah 47:14). Once the fire consumes all, there will be no more fuel for it, and it will cease on its own for lack of anything to burn. Just as Jerusalem in the days of Babylon and days of Rome. The fire would not be quenched, but once it burned through, it ceased to be.

The Scriptural [KJB] Fire, instead:

Additionally, it is the Righteous who will eternally dwell with God, who is “a Spirit” [John 4:24 KJB], and “the Holy Spirit” the fullness of “fire” [Acts 2:3; Revelation 1:4; 4:5 KJB], who “baptize/s” with “fire” [Matthew 3:11; Mark 9:49; Luke 3:16 KJB], thus we will dwell with “everlasting burnings” [Isaiah 33:14 KJB], for God is a “consuming fire” [to sin and of “Love”] [Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29; 1 John 4:8,16 KJB] and a “fire goeth before Him” [Psalms 97:3 KJB] which “shall devour before Him” [Psalms 50:3 KJB] and “he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire” [Lamentations 2:3 KJB], and for those whom He loves He is a “wall of fire round about” [Zechariah 2:5 KJB] and His “ministers a flame of fire” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7 KJB] and His “tongue as a devouring fire” [Isaiah 30:7 KJB] His speech “fire” [2 Samuel 22:9; Psalms 18:8; Jeremiah 20:9; Acts 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJB], His “eyes … as a flame of fire” [Revelation 1:14, 2:18, 19:12 KJB], His “face as the sun” and His “feet a pillar of fire” [Matthew 17:2; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Revelation 1:15, 2:18, 10:1 KJB], for He is a “refiners fire” [Malachi 3:2 KJB] having a “throne of fire” [Psalms 89:36; Daniel 7:9; Ezekiel 1:26-28; Revelation 4:5 KJB], His Ten Commandments a “Fiery Law” [Deuteronomy 33:2; Ezekiel 28:14,16 KJB] and it is they who have the victory over sin who stand upon the sea of glass mingled with fire [Revelation 15:2 KJB], and will be as the burning bush which was not consumed [Exodus 3:3 KJB], for He is “Light”, even the Light of all.

However, the wicked are never immortal, for they are to be burnt up into smoke and ashes at the meeting out of Judgment, they are perished forever; Job 20:26,29, 31:2-3; Psalms 7:9, 9:17, 11:6, 21:9, 37:10, 37:20, 37:28,38, 68:2, 69:28, 75:8,10, 92:7,9, 104:35, 106:18, 112:10, 145:20; Proverbs 2:22, 10:25,28,30, 12:7, 13:9, 14:11, 24:20; Ezekiel 18:4, 18:20; Isaiah 13:9, 66:17,24; Nahum 1:10; Obadiah 1:16; Zephaniah 1:2-3; Matthew 10:28; John 3:16; Romans 6:23; Hebrews 6:8; James 1:15; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:9, 21:4 KJB.

ReChoired · Aug 20, 2020

2 Chr. 34:19 said:
“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

Carcases:

Let's look at this some more, and look at the word "carcases" as found in Isaiah 66:24 KJB, and see it in immediate context, and as used throughout:

Isaiah 66:6 KJB - A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.

Isaiah 66:15 KJB - For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Isaiah 66:16 KJB - For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Isaiah 66:17 KJB - They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

His "chariots" are all the hosts of angels, for they are flames of fire [see 2 Kings 2:11, 6:17, 7:6, 13:14; Psalms 68:17, 104:4; Joel 2:3,5; Hebrews 1:7 KJB], and in such glory, the very heavens and earth itself will melt at the presence of Jesus Christ, in His glory, His Father's glory and the glory of all the Holy Angels [2nd Advent, before/at the beginning of 1,000 years], and in the 3rd Advent [after/at the end of 1,000 years], all the gloriously transfigured righteous also are present.

This is like unto what Jeremiah said:

Jeremiah 16:4 KJB - They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

The word Hebrew word [H6297] used in Isaiah is translated thus:

פּגר
peger

Total KJB Occurrences: 28

carcases, 13

Genesis 15:11; Leviticus 26:30 (2); Numbers 14:29,32-33 (2); 1 Samuel 17:46; Isaiah 34:3, 66:24; Ezekiel 6:5, 43:7,9; Nahum 3:3

bodies, 6

2 Chronicles 20:24-25 (2); Jeremiah 31:40, 33:5, 41:9; Amos 8:3

dead, 6

2 Chronicles 20:24-25 (2); Jeremiah 31:40, 33:5, 41:9; Amos 8:3

corpses, 2

2 Kings 19:35; Isaiah 37:36

carcase, 1

Isaiah 14:19

Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcases", just in Isaiah, it is a dead person [lifeless person, a dead body, see Ezekiel 6:5; Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

Isaiah 5:25 KJB - Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

Isaiah 34:3 KJB - Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 66:24 KJB - And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcases", throughout the scripture [KJB], it is a dead person [lifeless person, a dead body, see Ezekiel 6:5, Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

Genesis 15:11 KJB - And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

Leviticus 11:11 KJB - They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.

Leviticus 11:26 KJB - The carcases of every beast which divideth the hoof, and is not clovenfooted, nor cheweth the cud, are unclean unto you: every one that toucheth them shall be unclean.

Leviticus 26:30 KJB - And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.

Numbers 14:29 KJB - Your carcases shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

Numbers 14:32 KJB - But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness.

Numbers 14:33 KJB - And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

1 Samuel 17:46 KJB - This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.

Jeremiah 7:33 KJB - And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.

Jeremiah 9:22 KJB - Speak, Thus saith the LORD, Even the carcases of men shall fall as dung upon the open field, and as the handful after the harvestman, and none shall gather them.

Jeremiah 16:4 KJB - They shall die of grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcases shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

Jeremiah 16:18 KJB - And first I will recompense their iniquity and their sin double; because they have defiled my land, they have filled mine inheritance with the carcases of their detestable and abominable things.

Jeremiah 19:7 KJB - And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth.

Ezekiel 6:5 KJB - And I will lay the dead carcases of the children of Israel before their idols; and I will scatter your bones round about your altars.

Ezekiel 43:7 KJB - And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Ezekiel 43:9 KJB - Now let them put away their whoredom, and the carcases of their kings, far from me, and I will dwell in the midst of them for ever.

Nahum 3:3 KJB - The horseman lifteth up both the bright sword and the glittering spear: and there is a multitude of slain, and a great number of carcases; and there is none end of their corpses; they stumble upon their corpses:

Hebrews 3:17 KJB - But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

ReChoired · Aug 20, 2020

2 Chr. 34:19 said:
“Where their worm never dies and the fire is never quenched”

Carcases continued:

Here is how the bible uses the word English word "carcase", throughout the scripture [KJB], it is a dead person [lifeless person, see Ezekiel 6:5, Nahum 3:3 KJB, etc]:

Leviticus 5:2 KJB - Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.

Leviticus 11:8 KJB - Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.

Leviticus 11:24 KJB - And for these ye shall be unclean: whosoever toucheth the carcase of them shall be unclean until the even.

Leviticus 11:25 KJB - And whosoever beareth ought of the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.

Leviticus 11:27 KJB - And whatsoever goeth upon his paws, among all manner of beasts that go on all four, those are unclean unto you: whoso toucheth their carcase shall be unclean until the even.

Leviticus 11:28 KJB - And he that beareth the carcase of them shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: they are unclean unto you.

Leviticus 11:35 KJB - And every thing whereupon any part of their carcase falleth shall be unclean; whether it be oven, or ranges for pots, they shall be broken down: for they are unclean, and shall be unclean unto you.

Leviticus 11:36 KJB - Nevertheless a fountain or pit, wherein there is plenty of water, shall be clean: but that which toucheth their carcase shall be unclean.

Leviticus 11:37 KJB - And if any part of their carcase fall upon any sowing seed which is to be sown, it shall be clean.

Leviticus 11:38 KJB - But if any water be put upon the seed, and any part of their carcase fall thereon, it shall be unclean unto you.

Leviticus 11:39 KJB - And if any beast, of which ye may eat, die; he that toucheth the carcase thereof shall be unclean until the even.

Leviticus 11:40 KJB - And he that eateth of the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: he also that beareth the carcase of it shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even.

Deuteronomy 14:8 KJB - And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.

Deuteronomy 28:26 KJB - And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

Joshua 8:29 KJB - And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide: and as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his carcase down from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city, and raise thereon a great heap of stones, that remaineth unto this day.

Judges 14:8 KJB - And after a time he returned to take her, and he turned aside to see the carcase of the lion: and, behold, there was a swarm of bees and honey in the carcase of the lion.

Judges 14:9 KJB - And he took thereof in his hands, and went on eating, and came to his father and mother, and he gave them, and they did eat: but he told not them that he had taken the honey out of the carcase of the lion.

1 Kings 13:22 KJB - But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

1 Kings 13:24 KJB - And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

1 Kings 13:25 KJB - And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.

1 Kings 13:28 KJB - And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass.

1 Kings 13:29 KJB - And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.

1 Kings 13:30 KJB - And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother!

2 Kings 9:37 KJB - And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field in the portion of Jezreel; so that they shall not say, This is Jezebel.

Isaiah 14:19 KJB - But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

Matthew 24:28 KJB - For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

In Isaiah 66, and in Mark 9 [quoting Isaiah 66], we see that the wicked are slain, dead upon the ground, and to be burned up in the fire, consumed away as "the fat of lambs", for it is through the Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13 KJB], that we understand all the teachings of God, including what happens to sin, sinners/wicked, they are to be filled with the terror of the LORD in His Holiness, to be slaughtered, cut into pieces, and burned up into smoke and ashes, that all such may have their end [2nd death], for sin, when it is "finished", bringeth forth "death", which is the wages of sin:

Psalms 37:20 KJB - But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalms 73:17 KJB - Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.

Psalms 73:18 KJB - Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

Psalms 73:19 KJB - How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly consumed with terrors.

justbyfaith · Aug 21, 2020

@ReChoired, that is a lot of effort put forth to deny some very sound teaching in holy scripture; and what I found was that many of the verses you quoted actually teach the concepts that you have been denying.

I will point out concerning one of your contentions, that a day is coming when all who do wickedly shall be as stubble and shall be burned up completely; but that there is a day coming afterward in which those same wicked people will be resurrected and judged and then cast into the furnace of fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth; and that this shall be everlasting punishment for them.

And to attempt to diminish the doctrine of eternal torments in the lake of fire is to diminish its deterring effect so that people will not be deterred from going there and will find themselves in for a hard shock when they finally end up in everlasting torments.

They may say on that day, "But I was not deterred from sinning as I should have been; because @ReChoired taught me that the wicked will only be annihilated and that therefore I did not have to fear everlasting punishment."

And God will say to them, "he will have the consequences for teaching you that false doctrine; and your judgment is not deferred."

Therefore, you, @ReChoired, will be held accountable in the justice of God for the fate of those people who will end up in everlasting torment because they trusted in your teaching about annihilation. For they will in fact cry out to God for justice against the one who deceived them in this matter.

2 Chr. 34:19 · Aug 21, 2020

ReChoired said:
lost*, the one who did not overcome sin by the indwelling of Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit, and did not receive the new name in the white stone, but remained instead a “Jacob” [a supplanter, overcome by sin], a “despised” person, a “reproach of men”, and “no man” [Psalms 22:6 KJB] [ie., not like obedient Christ Jesus,

Thankyou for the exegesis

How does one overcome being ‘lost’ like Jacob?

Enoch111 · Aug 21, 2020

justbyfaith said:
@ReChoired, that is a lot of effort put forth to deny some very sound teaching in holy scripture; and what I found was that many of the verses you quoted actually teach the concepts that you have been denying.

Well said justbyfaith. To post reams, and reams, and reams of false doctrine shows that Satan hates the idea (1) that he himself will be in eternal Hell, and (2) that sinners will fear the consequences of sin, and shun Hell by obeying the Gospel.

All Annihilationists on this Forum please note:
YOU ARE CALLING GOD AND CHRIST LIARS.

MARK 9: THE WORDS OF CHRIST HIMSELF
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, [Gehenna, the Lake of Fire] into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, [Gehenna, the Lake of Fire] into the fire that never shall be quenched:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [Gehenna, the Lake of Fire] 48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

For the Lord Jesus Christ to repeat something thrice is extremely significant. He wanted no one to miss His warning, then repent and be converted.

ReChoired · Aug 21, 2020

justbyfaith said:
@ReChoired, that is a lot of effort put forth

It's not for you. It's for those who are interested in truth and desire real prayerful Bible study.

ReChoired · Aug 21, 2020

2 Chr. 34:19 said:
Thankyou for the exegesis

How does one overcome being ‘lost’ like Jacob?

In short? The same way "Jacob" overcame.

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