Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

ChristisGod · Aug 21, 2020

BarnyFife said:
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4:8)

Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity."

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

The sobering fact is that God is so holy and righteous that He hates the sinner (Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15). Some say that we should say that God only hates the sin but loves the sinner. But, the above scriptures speak contrary to that. But it is also true that He is love (1 John 4:8). It is better to accept the love of God found in Jesus than to reject it and suffer His wrath.carm

hope this helps !!!

ChristisGod · Aug 21, 2020

BarnyFife said:
But that would be mathematically incorrect.

not according to my math its 100% correct.

justbyfaith · Aug 21, 2020

Earburner said:
The ONLY fire that is Eternal, is the all consuming Fire of God Himself.
Therefore, when all of that which can burn and will burn, even the earth itself, will eventually stop burning, due to lack of fuel in that of itself.
So no, there is no eternal burning "Hell" , as you "religiously" understand it.

So God is going to burn out for lack of fuel?

BarneyFife · Aug 21, 2020

Christophany said:
Does God hate anyone? The answer is yes.

Psalm 5:5, "The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity."

Psalm 11:5, "The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates."

Lev. 20:23, "Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them."

Prov. 6:16-19, "There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers."

Hosea 9:15, "All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels."

The sobering fact is that God is so holy and righteous that He hates the sinner (Psalm 5:5; Lev. 20:23; Prov. 6:16-19; Hos. 9:15). Some say that we should say that God only hates the sin but loves the sinner. But, the above scriptures speak contrary to that. But it is also true that He is love (1 John 4:8). It is better to accept the love of God found in Jesus than to reject it and suffer His wrath.carm

hope this helps !!!

His hate is so unlike ours that it might as well be called something different. The ancient Hebrew understanding of hate is different than that of modern western society, as well.

BarneyFife · Aug 21, 2020

Christophany said:
not according to my math its 100% correct.

Please demonstrate, if it's not too much trouble.

justbyfaith · Aug 21, 2020

I think that, looking at Revelation 20:10, that there is the distinct possibility that it is describing what punishment in the lake of fire will be like for all who go there. And that it is not only speaking of the punishment of satan, the beast, and the false prophet.

So, if you want to believe differently, go ahead and believe differently; but understand that you just might be wrong and that eternal punishment will be day and night for ever and ever...for all who are cast into the lake of fire. Conclusion: you really do want for your name to be written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Also, in Revelation 14:9-11, the smoke of their torment riseth up for ever and ever. And while this may only apply to those who worship the Beast and his image, it does set a precedent for eternal punishment that can carry over into the punishment simply of those who never receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour (who are condemned already for that they don't believe on the name of the only begotten Son of God).

ChristisGod · Aug 21, 2020

BarnyFife said:
His hate is so unlike ours that it might as well be called something different. The ancient Hebrew understanding of hate is different than that of modern western society, as well.

1 John 3:11-15
For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Its really black and white that hate is murder and the opposite of love from scripture.

BarneyFife · Aug 21, 2020

Christophany said:
1 John 3:11-15
For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Its really black and white that hate is murder and the opposite of love from scripture.

But God is love. You can't get much more black and white than that.
So God is a murderer now?
I'll never understand why people are so reluctant to resolve a paradox in Scripture.

ChristisGod · Aug 21, 2020

BarnyFife said:
But God is love. You can't get much more black and white than that.
So God is a murderer now?
I'll never understand why people are so reluctant to resolve a paradox in Scripture.

No just showing you the opposite of love and what hate actually means.

VictoryinJesus · Aug 21, 2020

justbyfaith said:
Also, in Revelation 14:9-11, the smoke of their torment riseth up for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 14:10 Lexicon: he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Tormented (Tortured)...in the presence of the Lamb ...is this an everlasting torment in the presence of the Lamb?

BarneyFife · Aug 21, 2020

Christophany said:
No just showing you the opposite of love and what hate actually means.

How can God be the opposite of what He is?
By the way, I don't believe love and hate are opposites.

Enoch111 · Aug 21, 2020

Taken said:
^ That does not Apply to mankind.

What exactly are you trying to say? That sinners will not be in the Lake of Fire? If so you are MISREPRESENTING what is in Scripture. If not then don't try to obfuscate the truth.

Giuliano · Aug 21, 2020

bbyrd009 said:
word

Do you find it interesting that love is also experienced as a type of burning? It's pleasant, but it's still burning.

Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

I believe when we choose the path of love, we are offering bits of that uncircumcised heart on the altar of love. As the flames go up, it's as if we are returning to God in a way similar to how angels go "up" in a flame. The light comes "down" and the flames go "up."

I believe the unloving bits of the uncircumcised heart are reduced to ashes and then replaced by a "heart of flesh." If we read the Bible and something "burns" within us and we feel warm with love for God, I think we probably understood what we read. We got the message intended.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If I read something in the Bible (especially in the Torah and the Prophets, less so in the Writings) and can find the love in it, I think I got the right message. If I can't find the love in it, I don't know what to think. Maybe I missed the lesson. Maybe someone added that verse to the Bible and there is nothing valuable to learn. Maybe I have a bad translation.

Can anyone believe the following passage made me love God more? When I studied Revelation, I felt a great warmth of love reading this when I saw God getting ready to make more Bread and Wine.

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Yes, it's fine to have your head cut off if you're wheat. And "Ouch" when the grape is plucked from the vine -- can we possibly "live" unconnected to the Vine? My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? You are going to pour my soul out? You want everything I am?

And then behold: A god is born. Another star appears in the heavens.

marks · Aug 21, 2020

Giuliano said:
And then behold: A god is born. Another star appears in the heavens.

A god is born?

?

BarneyFife · Aug 21, 2020

marks said:
A god is born?

?

Yeah, that's just a tad weird @Giuliano but I guess it's hyperbole or something, huh?

marks · Aug 21, 2020

BarnyFife said:
Yeah, that's just a tad weird @Giuliano but I guess it's hyperbole or something, huh?

You know, considering God's plans for us, well, while we will not be God, Yet He had determined that we should be conformed to the image of Christ, that we share His nature.

Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars of heaven forever.

Much love!

Phoneman777 · Aug 21, 2020

BarnyFife said:
Not really an invitation to slam Mr. Fudge. I just wondered how many proponents of annihilationism we have on board.

Does hell burn for eternity or just until the wicked suffer corresponding to the exact amount of evil caused by their words, thoughts, and deeds?

No evidence for eternal torment - the Rich Man and Lazarus is only a parable, the "souls under the altar" are figurative of God's desire to make wrong right, "forever" in the Greek is "aionios" which means "duration" and can refer to eternity OR events which have already completed, "absent from the body and present with the Lord" contains right in the passage the third option which is "naked" and "unclothed" without a body in the grave awaiting the "change" from mortal to immortality as Job says, etc. Just a few fence posts that appear out of line that somehow sends Christians on a mission to move the miles and miles of other fence posts to line up with these few instead of examining why they appear to be out of line (which examination shows the few were never out of line at all to begin with).

justbyfaith · Aug 21, 2020

The rich man and Lazarus is not a parable.

And you say the opposite.

Well, there is the possibility that I am right and you are wrong.

Are you going to bank your eternity on your being right about this issue?

How much better to accept the doctrine of eternal torments as a deterrent concerning sin in your life?

Giuliano · Aug 21, 2020

marks said:
A god is born?

?

Certainly. Wouldn't the sons of God also be gods?

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

God is One. If you are born again and completely filled with the Holy Spirit and part of the Body of Christ, you are part of God. Your body is His Temple.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

If we see Jesus as he is, we will be like him. If we project something else and have an erroneous view, we will not be like him until we get the "right picture."

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Giuliano · Aug 21, 2020

BarnyFife said:
Yeah, that's just a tad weird @Giuliano but I guess it's hyperbole or something, huh?

No hyperbole if you can believe what Jesus told Nicodemus that those born from above can move like the wind. Many may think they are born of the Spirit, but are they? Or have they been born of the water but not yet of the Spirit? Jesus obliquely refers to Ezekiel when he talks about the "Son of Man." Ezekiel had been born from above. Ever wonder how the Son of Man could be in two places at the same time? Ever wonder why Paul said some believers are seated in heavenly places? Yes, already there!

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Edward Fudge: Hero Or Heretic?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads