Please Read This

wayofthespirit · Mar 1, 2010

rdventen said:
I see that this is not getting us any where, so lets just agree to just disagree on the Impotence of the Bible in todays world. Pace in Jesus name.

PS. Thank you all for your responses.

Well if that's it then I must bring forward what IMHO would have to be my final overview.

The Old Testament was for the old 'Israel', to lead them as a schoolmaster to Christ, yet still served , in the case of Timothy to make him wise unto Salvation, and still served in the various ways quoted by Christ and the Apostles (which we mistakenly appropriate to Catholicism's subsequent 'Bible').
The apostolic writings are a different 'kettle of fish'.

Since the quotes which are commonly bandied about refer to the Old Testament Scripture we do in fact have nothing to tell us to precisely what degree the Apostolic writings were inspired, nor whether the subsequent committees of men were right in their decision to attempt to subdivide them between 'authorised' and 'unauthorised' writings.
We only have what some of the writers say about themselves e.g. 2 Thess. 2:15 (which clearly was not speaking of the old Testament) "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by spoken word, or by our epistle.”

The 12 special apostles were chosen because they accompanied one another in Christ’s presence throughout his ministry and were eye witnesses of his resurrection. They were then specially schooled by Christ for 40 days regarding the Kingdom of Heaven as his last act before finally being ‘taken up’ immediately prior to Pentecost.

Paul is the only exception having been added later to the apostolic endeavour and I take his words in 2Thess 2:15 as indicative of the objective of the apostolic writings.

We must be grateful, and take as God’s will, that Catholicism preserved those writings but, to my way of thinking, their decision to add them to the old Testament and pronounce the composite as a New Holy Text Book was an Idolatrous step too far.

If only they had preserved them simply for what they were i.e. a collection of separate early church exhortations.

But then Christian History is littered with ‘if only’s’ and our God is sovereign with both a permissive will, as well as a prescriptive will.

My ‘angle’ is somewhat academic since it leaves me reading and revering exactly the same writings as other Christians.

Main difference being that I don’t have to labour under this silly “complete and final verbally inerrant text book” stuff, which is used to divide the Body of Christ by countless “thus saith the Word of God” different denominational interpretations. (an utter contradiction of terms if ever there was one).

Mike.

rdventen · Mar 1, 2010

wayofthespirit said:
Well if that's it then I must bring forward what IMHO would have to be my final overview.

The Old Testament was for the old 'Israel', to lead them as a schoolmaster to Christ, yet still served , in the case of Timothy to make him wise unto Salvation, and still served in the various ways quoted by Christ and the Apostles (which we mistakenly appropriate to Catholicism's subsequent 'Bible').
The apostolic writings are a different 'kettle of fish'.

Since the quotes which are commonly bandied about refer to the Old Testament Scripture we do in fact have nothing to tell us to precisely what degree the Apostolic writings were inspired, nor whether the subsequent committees of men were right in their decision to attempt to subdivide them between 'authorised' and 'unauthorised' writings.
We only have what some of the writers say about themselves e.g. 2 Thess. 2:15 (which clearly was not speaking of the old Testament) "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by spoken word, or by our epistle.”

The 12 special apostles were chosen because they accompanied one another in Christ’s presence throughout his ministry and were eye witnesses of his resurrection. They were then specially schooled by Christ for 40 days regarding the Kingdom of Heaven as his last act before finally being ‘taken up’ immediately prior to Pentecost.

Paul is the only exception having been added later to the apostolic endeavour and I take his words in 2Thess 2:15 as indicative of the objective of the apostolic writings.

We must be grateful, and take as God’s will, that Catholicism preserved those writings but, to my way of thinking, their decision to add them to the old Testament and pronounce the composite as a New Holy Text Book was an Idolatrous step too far.

If only they had preserved them simply for what they were i.e. a collection of separate early church exhortations.

But then Christian History is littered with ‘if only’s’ and our God is sovereign with both a permissive will, as well as a prescriptive will.

My ‘angle’ is somewhat academic since it leaves me reading and revering exactly the same writings as other Christians.

Main difference being that I don’t have to labour under this silly “complete and final verbally inerrant text book” stuff, which is used to divide the Body of Christ by countless “thus saith the Word of God” different denominational interpretations. (an utter contradiction of terms if ever there was one).

Mike.

Sorry you feel that way, God bless

Christina · Mar 1, 2010

There is almost nothing in the Old testament that is not in the New Testament either in beginning or type
The Old testament is as relevant as the New ...
The old testament is the New testament concealed the New Testament the Old testament revealed
The dead sea scrolls prove there was always writings, inspired by God
Its not a matter of Spirit or the book ..but both ...The book alone doesnt save ...
Accepting Christ as your savior saves one ..
The book is his letter to us ... A love letter of instruction and explanation
If one truly loves him you will want to know his words, his instructions

One can simply let the spirit guide you but you will lack knowledge of his words
one can simply read the book, but without the spirit to give you wisdom you will not see
They both parts of a whole the book makes no sense without his spirit to give you wisdom
The spirit has little knowledge of his Words for our life without the book

Irish · Mar 1, 2010

wayofthespirit said:
Since the quotes which are commonly bandied about refer to the Old Testament Scripture we do in fact have nothing to tell us to precisely what degree the Apostolic writings were inspired, nor whether the subsequent committees of men were right in their decision to attempt to subdivide them between 'authorised' and 'unauthorised' writings.
We only have what some of the writers say about themselves e.g. 2 Thess. 2:15 (which clearly was not speaking of the old Testament) "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by spoken word, or by our epistle.”

The 12 special apostles were chosen because they accompanied one another in Christ’s presence throughout his ministry and were eye witnesses of his resurrection. They were then specially schooled by Christ for 40 days regarding the Kingdom of Heaven as his last act before finally being ‘taken up’ immediately prior to Pentecost.

Paul is the only exception having been added later to the apostolic endeavour and I take his words in 2Thess 2:15 as indicative of the objective of the apostolic writings.

We must be grateful, and take as God’s will, that Catholicism preserved those writings but, to my way of thinking, their decision to add them to the old Testament and pronounce the composite as a New Holy Text Book was an Idolatrous step too far.

If only they had preserved them simply for what they were i.e. a collection of separate early church exhortations.

But then Christian History is littered with ‘if only’s’ and our God is sovereign with both a permissive will, as well as a prescriptive will.

My ‘angle’ is somewhat academic since it leaves me reading and revering exactly the same writings as other Christians.

Main difference being that I don’t have to labour under this silly “complete and final verbally inerrant text book” stuff, which is used to divide the Body of Christ by countless “thus saith the Word of God” different denominational interpretations. (an utter contradiction of terms if ever there was one).

Mike.

Color me confused, you seem to use these books to your advantage when possible, and then say their addition is idolatrous. At least we have the works that Bullinger continued with so we could use the structure to help us better see their place in scripture. And as far as some using the word Bullingerism or the likes. The structure in scripture was already there long before Bullinger was born, and was discovered in part before his works. Dispensations are a very real thing, and if their existence creates denominations then let them be divided. That is your choice and their choice.
As to rightly dividing being not applicable to the old Testament, maybe you should highlight "spoken word" along with "by our epistle". If the Epistle are mere church exhortations, should we disregard the mystery of Ephesians? You seem to have a Jewish tilt on some of this, color me less confused.

Irish

wayofthespirit · Mar 1, 2010

I want to be led aright with all my heart....please believe me.

It's just that with absolutely no denominational affiliation who could expect me to endorse all the sacred cows that have devloped over 2000 of the most drastically changing years of oppression and theological warfare that have been waged between persons varying from free thinking Scholars, imperially shackled stooges, and simplistic and naive ignoramouses.

I've spent more years pouring over all that I can possibly gleen in order to help my understanding, than most of you have even lived.

There are so many factors that I have assimilated that I can't possibly put them all together to illustrate why I believe as I do...and I'm still learning and refining what I believe.

I do my best to put a few salien points together......sorry if inevitably they do not accord with any particular 'party line'.

What's the value in a 'holy huddle' if the unravelling of misconception is genuinely sought?

And who on earth could examine the full range of the 2000 years of Christianity without concluding that misconception must be the inevitable outcome?

Mike.

jerryjohnson · Mar 1, 2010

wayofthespirit said:
I want to be led aright with all my heart....please believe me.

It's just that with absolutely no denominational affiliation ...

In saying all that, aren't you creating your own denomination?

wayofthespirit · Mar 1, 2010

jerryjohnson said:
In saying all that, aren't you creating your own denomination?

wayofthespirit said:
.Onto my shoulders the weight of the cross, heavier grows as I learn,
that the music that thrills my master’s heart is not that for which we all yearn.
It’s to stay where I’m put; not to forge a new berth; not to revel in what I see wrong.
But to honour the lesser vessels of faith in the body to which I belong.
So I take thus my cross,where it’s hardest to bear.
To the nearest Church of my King;
NOT SEEING THE NAME THAT ENTITLES THE DOOR,
if it's where I hear that bell ring.

What'll you do Jerry if you can no longer find some way to 'trip me up'?

Mike.

jerryjohnson · Mar 1, 2010

wayofthespirit said:
What'll you do Jerry if you can no longer find some way to 'trip me up'?

Mike.
[/quote]

You don't need to worry about me, OK! We will go our separate ways.

Christina · Mar 1, 2010

wayofthespirit said:
I want to be led aright with all my heart....please believe me.

It's just that with absolutely no denominational affiliation who could expect me to endorse all the sacred cows that have devloped over 2000 of the most drastically changing years of oppression and theological warfare that have been waged between persons varying from free thinking Scholars, imperially shackled stooges, and simplistic and naive ignoramouses.

I've spent more years pouring over all that I can possibly gleen in order to help my understanding, than most of you have even lived.

There are so many factors that I have assimilated that I can't possibly put them all together to illustrate why I believe as I do...and I'm still learning and refining what I believe.

I do my best to put a few salien points together......sorry if inevitably they do not accord with any particular 'party line'.

What's the value in a 'holy huddle' if the unravelling of misconception is genuinely sought?

And who on earth could examine the full range of the 2000 years of Christianity without concluding that misconception must be the inevitable outcome?

Mike.

Actually I find this sad .... perhaps you should have put all those years and time into studying your fathers Word rather than mens Words and trying to prove it wrong through books so called facts of men, denominations ect.

I have studied it for many many years and my hair is grey and it wasnt when I started

It never fails to amaze me, it has the answer to every question it has no contradictions. The more I learn, the more there is to learn, a person in a lifetime can not learn it all

I have little use for men and their denominations but the Word of God IS
what it claims to be, whether we all agree on interpretation or not doesnt change that fact ...
God created all things, yet its sad your faith is so little you can not see that he could handle a book, in-spite of men, you have chosen to believe what men say .....
One can take every word back to its original language if so inclined... I study the book everyday and am not only amazed at its knowledge but amazed at what I dont yet know .....

God says its his inspired Word and he comes in the book ..yet you ,with knowledge of men and belief of men, have made a choice, if wrong, you have basically decided God is a liar .... and used the excuse well men probably put that there,
because your faith in their words their books their conclusions are greater than your faith in Gods words ......You better be sure of your words ..because I know by experience you are 100% wrong

If you dont see that, perhaps YOU yourself are the very reason, God hasnt given you wisdom to have eyes to see , to understand and see the wisdom and truth in his Words ...

rdventen · Mar 2, 2010

Christina said:
Actually I find this sad .... perhaps you should have put all those years and time into studying your fathers Word rather than mens Words and trying to prove it wrong through books so called facts of men, denominations ect.

I have studied it for many many years and my hair is grey and it wasnt when I started

It never fails to amaze me, it has the answer to every question it has no contradictions. The more I learn, the more there is to learn, a person in a lifetime can not learn it all

I have little use for men and their denominations but the Word of God IS
what it claims to be, whether we all agree on interpretation or not doesnt change that fact ...
God created all things, yet its sad your faith is so little you can not see that he could handle a book, in-spite of men, you have chosen to believe what men say .....
One can take every word back to its original language if so inclined... I study the book everyday and am not only amazed at its knowledge but amazed at what I dont yet know .....

God says its his inspired Word and he comes in the book ..yet you ,with knowledge of men and belief of men, have made a choice, if wrong, you have basically decided God is a liar .... and used the excuse well men probably put that there,
because your faith in their words their books their conclusions are greater than your faith in Gods words ......You better be sure of your words ..because I know by experience you are 100% wrong

If you dont see that, perhaps YOU yourself are the very reason, God hasnt given you wisdom to have eyes to see , to understand and see the wisdom and truth in his Words ...

I just want to agree with you on what you say, We can not do with out the living word of God the Bible. Anyone who thinks deferent is sadly wrong.

jiggyfly · Mar 3, 2010

rdventen said:
I just want to agree with you on what you say, We can not do with out the living word of God the Bible. Anyone who thinks deferent is sadly wrong.

I disagree and ask you to produce evidence that God said the "bible" is His "living Word"

Christina · Mar 3, 2010

jiggyfly said:
I disagree and ask you to produce evidence that God said the "bible" is His "living Word"

First was the word and the word became flesh ..You can not seperate Christ/God from his Word
One is spoken/written the other is the Action of what is written ...
But then you will not agree because your mind is made up
and nothing will convince you to change it sense you do not believe the Bible, how then can one be expected to show you proof
and you then believe, what you have said is a lie ...

So why do you bother to reply to these threads when there is no right answer as far as you are concerned are you trying to convince us or yourself that your right ?

Because us that know and have been given wisdom of the Word and seen its amazing truth will never believe you ...

jiggyfly · Mar 3, 2010

Christina said:
First was the word and the word became flesh ..You can not seperate Christ/God from his Word
One is spoken/written the other is the Action of what is written ...
But then you will not agree because your mind is made up
and nothing will convince you to change it sense you do not believe the Bible, how then can one be expected to show you proof
and you then believe, what you have said is a lie ...

So why do you bother to reply to these threads when there is no right answer as far as you are concerned are you trying to convince us or yourself that your right ?

Because us that know and have been given wisdom of the Word and seen its amazing truth will never believe you ...

Sounds to me your the one who has made up their mind. Simply show proof where God says the bible and or scriptures are His living Word. The scripture that you referred to in your post is not speaking of the scriptures it is speaking of Christ.

jerryjohnson · Mar 3, 2010

jiggyfly said:
Sounds to me your the one who has made up their mind. Simply show proof where God says the bible and or scriptures is his living Word. The scripture that you referred to in your post is not speaking of the scriptures nit is speaking of Christ.

jig,
I do not believe anyone will convince you of that until your eyes have been openned, and we can not do that. Just put it on the shelf for a short while and you will see.

wayofthespirit · Mar 3, 2010

jerryjohnson said:
jig,
I do not believe anyone will convince you of that until your eyes have been openned, and we can not do that. Just put it on the shelf for a short while and you will see.

No man, (neither you nor jiggfly) can do more than sow what he believes to be good seed, and then rely on God's Holy Spirit to cause such as really is 'good seed' to grow and to flourish.
When two or three engage the ones who close their minds to any possibility that they might be the ones who are mistaken are the ones who are the most likely to be.

Mike.

Irish · Mar 4, 2010

A man was in dire straights. In the night a flood rose up and all he could do was make to his roof. A man in a canoe came by and said jump in, he said, no, I'm waiting for the Lord to save me. Another man came by in a larger boat and said jump in, the man so no I'm waiting for the Lord to save me. The next morning a man comes by in a helicopter, says hop on, the man says no I'm waiting for the Lord to save me,.....The man drowns, gos to heaven and says to the Lord, why didn't you save me? The Lord says I sent you a canoe, boat and helicopter!

Amos 3:7 (King James Version)

[sup]7[/sup]Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

I am of the impression the Lord has given us the tools to accomplish what he would have us do.

Irish

fivesense · Mar 7, 2010

rdventen said:
[sup]What do you think?
[sup][/sup]
14[/sup]Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— [sup]15[/sup]and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. [sup]16[/sup]For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. [sup]17[/sup]For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for[sup][f][/sup]the sins of the people. [sup]18[/sup]Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Hi rd, I thought this was appropriate to your question, since it answers it directly.

...through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered-the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,YLT Hb 5:9

Christ, as the Logos, became flesh, in order to ransom us. As the creator of all things, He took upon Himself the form of humanity:

who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death-death even of a cross,YLT Phl 2:6-8

Obedience to God prior to His being begotten in the flesh was the essense of Their relationship. By subjecting Himself to the passions and the emotions connected to frail, human flesh, His obedience was tested and confirmed, which could not have occurred in His previous glorious state as the Creator, which was a given outside a mortal body. We too, freed from our mortal shells, in His presence at His coming, will be ready to obey Him without interference of death and passions, becoming perfected in His sight by the power that raised Him from the among the dead.

Once more, we are forced to agree with God in the matter, or fall back upon our darkened understanding, not believing God. May God deliver us from placing our interpretations above His Holy Word.

fivesense

Irish · Mar 8, 2010

fivesense said:
Hi rd, I thought this was appropriate to your question, since it answers it directly.

...through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered-the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,YLT Hb 5:9

Christ, as the Logos, became flesh, in order to ransom us. As the creator of all things, He took upon Himself the form of humanity:

who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death-death even of a cross,YLT Phl 2:6-8

Obedience to God prior to His being begotten in the flesh was the essense of Their relationship. By subjecting Himself to the passions and the emotions connected to frail, human flesh, His obedience was tested and confirmed, which could not have occurred in His previous glorious state as the Creator, which was a given outside a mortal body. We too, freed from our mortal shells, in His presence at His coming, will be ready to obey Him without interference of death and passions, becoming perfected in His sight by the power that raised Him from the among the dead.

Once more, we are forced to agree with God in the matter, or fall back upon our darkened understanding, not believing God. May God deliver us from placing our interpretations above His Holy Word.

fivesense

Proverbs 1:5-6 (King James Version)

[sup]5[/sup]A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

[sup]6[/sup]To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

Through the tools the Holy Spirit has made available, such as structure, subject, object, context, dispensations, gematria etc. we are better able to understand His interpretations of scriptures

Irish

farouk · Mar 21, 2010

jiggyfly said:
I disagree and ask you to produce evidence that God said the "bible" is His "living Word"

1 Peter 1 says that the Word of God, by which believers are born again, lives and abides for ever.

It also says, All flesh is as grass. Like you and me.

Please Read This

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