The Basis of Salvation

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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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Not of works, lest any man should boast.

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For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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Not of works, lest any man should boast.


"[[[[[[ I was in my 50's .........before I new this........]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]

CadyandZoe said:

Okay, let's talk about Hebrews 10. Where in Hebrews 10 does Paul make YOUR point, that it is possible for a born-again person to walk away and lose his salvation? I don't see that anywhere in the text.

What I see is Paul's strong exhortation to persevere in the faith. What I don't see, are examples of people who did not take his advice.

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It's a warning to those with an Epignosis of Christ NOT to fall away and lose their security.

Only born again belivers have Epignosis of Christ.

Behold said:

Only the Catholic Doctrine teaches that "grace thru faith" if believed as Paul teaches is, is "cursed of God".
So, your cult of mary, revokes the Gospel of the Grace of God as taught by Paul , and defines anyone who "by faith alone" believes that God redeems them, ...Your cult teaches that these same are "anathema".

You yourself believed that Water Baptism is how God saved you.
Your phony bible teaches in John 3, that a person is "born again OF/by WATER""
So, your cult of mary bible is a Cross rejecting Lie.

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Like I said, Catholics have a much fuller understanding of WHAT faith actually is.

As for your nonsense about Baptism in the Catholic Bible . . .

KJV (Protestant)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Douay-Rheims (Catholic)
Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

They both convey the SAME message.
Once again – YOU are known by your many LIES . . .

BreadOfLife said:

Like I said, Catholics have a much fuller understanding of WHAT faith actually is.

As for your nonsense about Baptism in the Catholic Bible . . .

KJV (Protestant)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Douay-Rheims (Catholic)
Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

They both convey the SAME message.
Once again – YOU are known by your many LIES . . .

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Jesus was talking about rivers of living water that flow from the Holy Spirit and give new life John 7:38 and being born again.
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BreadOfLife said:

It's a warning to those with an Epignosis of Christ NOT to fall away and lose their security.

Only born again belivers have Epignosis of Christ.

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Does Paul actually say, "If a born again person should walk away he will lose his salvation?" I don't see that anywhere in the text. Where in the Bible do we get the idea that epignosis is unique to born again people? I don't see that anywhere. Being born again is a spiritual condition, not a mental condition.

Cooper said:

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38 KJV)

My Soul: This is God speaking about those who draw back. Notice, in the ASV (clicky) we are told these who turn back are righteous already.

The KJV uses the word "just" meaning justified, and you have to be saved in order to be justified.
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Habakkuk 2:1-4

I will stand on my guard post And station myself on the rampart;
And I will keep watch to see what He will speak to me,
And how I may reply when I am reproved.
Then the Lord answered me and said,
“Record the vision And inscribe it on tablets,
That the one who reads it may run.
“For the vision is yet for the appointed time;
It hastens toward the goal and it will not fail.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
For it will certainly come, it will not delay.

“Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.

Paul is quoting Habakkuk 2:4, which concludes a prophetic event whereby the watchmen is told to record his vision on tablets so that the one who reads it may run, i.e. escape the calamity. The prophecy will require an individual to make a life and death decision. Those who read the prophecy and believe it will take action to protect themselves and these will live. Those who who are proud will not take action and these will perish. God accounts those who had faith as justified.

Hopefully you can see from the context, this is not a passage about those who fell away after God declared them justified.

People talk about "salvation" as if it is some kind of metaphysical reality that we can't see. But we see from Habakkuk that faith resulted in actual, physical deliverance. We saw the same thing in the book of Exodus. The first born sons of those whose parents put blood on the door posts survived; the first born sons of those who failed to put the blood on the door posts perished.

No first born son who spent the night with blood on the door post perished.

CadyandZoe said:

Habakkuk 2:1-4

I will stand on my guard post And station myself on the rampart;
And I will keep watch to see what He will speak to me,
And how I may reply when I am reproved.
Then the Lord answered me and said,
“Record the vision And inscribe it on tablets,
That the one who reads it may run.
“For the vision is yet for the appointed time;
It hastens toward the goal and it will not fail.
Though it tarries, wait for it;
For it will certainly come, it will not delay.

“Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.

Paul is quoting Habakkuk 2:4, which concludes a prophetic event whereby the watchmen is told to record his vision on tablets so that the one who reads it may run, i.e. escape the calamity. The prophecy will require an individual to make a life and death decision. Those who read the prophecy and believe it will take action to protect themselves and these will live. Those who who are proud will not take action and these will perish. God accounts those who had faith as justified.

Hopefully you can see from the context, this is not a passage about those who fell away after God declared them justified.

People talk about "salvation" as if it is some kind of metaphysical reality that we can't see. But we see from Habakkuk that faith resulted in actual, physical deliverance. We saw the same thing in the book of Exodus. The first born sons of those whose parents put blood on the door posts survived; the first born sons of those who failed to put the blood on the door posts perished.

No first born son who spent the night with blood on the door post perished.

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Habakkuk 2:4 is about the king of Babylon. Because his soul was lifted up with pride, he would die, but the godly remnant of Israel would live by . . . faith. Verse 4c is quoted three times in the NT. The three parts of the verse—the just—shall live—by faith, go well with the emphases of the three contexts where they appear: Rom_1:17 emphasizes “the just”; Gal_3:11 emphasizes “faith”; Heb_10:38 emphasizes “shall live.” (Bible commentary)

Paul, as you say was quoting from a vision given by God to Habakkuk. This makes it even more powerful and would emphasize to his Jewish readers how important their faith in God was, for pride goes before destruction (Proverbs 16:18). Abram believed the LORD, and the LORD counted him as righteous because of his faith. It was faith that saved the Patriarchs (Hebrews 11). Those who live by faith are secure. The Good News Bible puts it like this, “those who are righteous will live because they are faithful to God.” On the other side of the coin we read: “The just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Heb 10:38 quoting Hab 2:4)

The backslider is someone who has lost their faith. As it is impossible to lose something we have never had, they must have had faith before they lost it. So, let us remain faithful to God and it will be counted to us as righteousness. Otherwise, our end will be worse than our beginning.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)

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CadyandZoe said:

Does Paul actually say, "If a born again person should walk away he will lose his salvation?" I don't see that anywhere in the text. Where in the Bible do we get the idea that epignosis is unique to born again people? I don't see that anywhere. Being born again is a spiritual condition, not a mental condition.

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Good grief - HOW many times do I need to give you the definition of "Epignosis"??

The verses I posted are directed toward converted, born-again believers - not non-believers.
Asa I stated before - the word that NONE of you can get past is Epignosis, which is defined as a full, experiential and relational knowledge.

Here is a bit of PROTESTANT and otherwise non-Catholic scholarship on the term, "Epignosis" . . .

Richard Chenevix Trench
“In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly” (Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot
“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge...Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
“epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who knows God
2. Christian faith

Cooper said:

Jesus was talking about rivers of living water that flow from the Holy Spirit and give new life John 7:38 and being born again.
.

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And yet other Protestants will tell you that He was speaking of the amniotic fluid during natural birth.

The problem with BOTH of these explanations is the heavy emphasis on the transforming regeneration of Baptism that is so prevalent in the first 3 chapters of John’s Gospel.

Chapter 1 – we see the Baptism of Christ where there is WATER and the Holy Spirit.
Chapter 2 – we see the transforming of WATER into wine at the Wedding at Cana.
Chapter 3 – we see Jesus telling Nicodemus that in order to be born AGAIN – a man must be fore of WATER and spirit.

Right after His conversation with Nicodemus – what do we see Jesus and the Apostles doing? BAPTIZING.
The first 3 chapters of John’s Gospel are literally DRENCHED in the transforming WATERS of Baptism . . .

Behold said:

Trying to hide the Catholic lies again?
You are afraid to quote the Catholic Bible?
Is that a venial sin or a mortal one, silly?

Why do you quote the Protestant bible to hide that YOUR CATHOLIC BIBLE teaches that YOU are born again "by/of" water.
Just be honest.
Admit that the Catholic Cult teaches that "water baptism" is the means of Spiritual Regeneration.
No need to hide it.
We know what your cult of Mary teaches.
Make Mary proud, just admit what you are, and what you believe....about that water..
Stay away from the KJV< as your cult does not use it.

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I gave you John 3:5 from both PROTESTANT and Catholic Bible translations.

You can't really be this dense . . .

BreadOfLife said:

And yet other Protestants will tell you that He was speaking of the amniotic fluid during natural birth.

The problem with BOTH of these explanations is the heavy emphasis on the transforming regeneration of Baptism that is so prevalent in the first 3 chapters of John’s Gospel.

Chapter 1 – we see the Baptism of Christ where there is WATER and the Holy Spirit.
Chapter 2 – we see the transforming of WATER into wine at the Wedding at Cana.
Chapter 3 – we see Jesus telling Nicodemus that in order to be born AGAIN – a man must be fore of WATER and spirit.

Right after His conversation with Nicodemus – what do we see Jesus and the Apostles doing? BAPTIZING.
The first 3 chapters of John’s Gospel are literally DRENCHED in the transforming WATERS of Baptism . . .

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Full immersion is how it should be, at the request, wish and desire of the person being baptised, who is of age and understanding to know their own mind. It being a public declaration of their own faith. The new birth in Christ being, not the joining together of two persons, but the joining together of our spirit with the Holy Spirit, giving rise to a spiritual birth and a transforming regeneration.

I was born catholic..........
My church preached way different in my time...........

I believe they have now changed....... We were not using the bible........ just our prayer book and rosary

I sure hope they have changed!!!!! I was never saved till I left the
R.C. C.

BreadOfLife said:

Good grief - HOW many times do I need to give you the definition of "Epignosis"??

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You don't need to define it. We have moved past it. Your Bible only contain two verses?

Cooper said:

Habakkuk 2:4 is about the king of Babylon.

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What? Where do you see the king of Babylon in those passages? Habakkuk the first chapter is a prophecy concerning the coming of the Chaldeans (Hab 1:6) Habakkuk answers back to God, asking why a good and gracious God would allow the Chaldeans to attack and overtake his people. Chapter 2 begins when Habakkuk sits as the watchmen on the wall, looking for the coming attack, waiting for God to answer.

God answers: Those who read the prophecy and believe it will live, those who have pride will die. Life or Death. God justified those who lived because they believed the prophecy. There is nothing in the passage to suggest that some of those who were justified, didn't live.

Cooper said:

Full immersion is how it should be, at the request, wish and desire of the person being baptised, who is of age and understanding to know their own mind. It being a public declaration of their own faith. The new birth in Christ being, not the joining together of two persons, but the joining together of our spirit with the Holy Spirit, giving rise to a spiritual birth and a transforming regeneration.

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Is that YOUR rule – or is that how it is spelled out in Scripture?

Baptism is the fulfillment of the OT type that WAS circumcision. As you know – 8-day-old baby boys were circumcised as a means of entering the Covenant with God - and were raised in the faith by their parents.

As Christians, we enter the NEW Covenant with God through Baptism. Baptized children are also raised in the faith by their parents. This is why Paul calls Baptism, “the circumcision of Christ” (Col. 2:11).

Remember - not just Abraham, but ALL males in his household were to be circumcised.

Peter and Paul baptized the ENTIRE households of Cornelius, the Philippian Jailer and Stephanas. Entire households included children of ALL ages.
In the case of the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:30–34), he was told, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you AND YOUR HOUSEHOLD.”

As for full immersion being the “ONLY” way to baptize – there is ZERO Biblical mandate for that. According to the 1st century document, The Didache (Teachings of the Twelve Apostles) - Baptism can be done by immersion OR by pouring over the head:

The Didache
Concerning baptism, baptise thus: Having first rehearsed all these things, "baptise, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost," in running water;
But if thou hast no running water, baptise in other water, and if thou canst not in cold, then in warm.
But if thou hast neither, POUR WATER THREE TIMES ON THE HEAD "in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost."
The Didache was written while most of the Apostles were STILL alive.
YOUR ideas about Baptism don’t exist in Scripture OR Tradition . . .

CadyandZoe said:

You don't need to define it. We have moved past it. Your Bible only contain two verses?

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No – we haven’t “moved past” anything.
YOU’VE chosen to ignore the Scriptural reality of Epignosis.

When I first brought this up – I guaranteed that NONE of you would be able to weasel your way out of the fact that the Word of God warns people with an Epignosis of Christ that they can fall away and LOSE their security.

And NO – my Bible doesn’t only have two verses. I have presented about TWO DOZEN verses showing these warnings and NONE of you who adhere to the man-made 16th century invention OSAS has been able to refute this.

Cherry-picking verses is the ONLY way you can try to make your case.
However, when you take ALL of the verses about salvation in their proper context, however – your false doctrine circles the drain . . .

Behold said:

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Salvation : is not based on how you live or behave AFTER you are saved/born again.

Salvation : is wholly and only and completely based on what Jesus accomplished for you on the Cross before you were born.

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Hi Behold,

Some verses of the Bible does speak of salvation as a past-tense event. Scripture also speaks of salvation as a present-tense event. In Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” So, it is ALSO an active work. Scripture also speaks of salvation as a future-tense event in Romans 13:11 it says “our salvation is nearer than when we first believed”.

Jesus said “IF anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.”

I have a suggestion for you Behold: Consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Soooo how can one be cast out and cut off if they are “saved/born again”? If they are once saved always saved then they can’t be cast out or cut off!!

Can you see how Your theory confilicts with the teachings of Scripture??

Mary

Behold said:

Trying to hide the Catholic lies again?
You are afraid to quote the Catholic Bible?
Is that a venial sin or a mortal one, silly?

Why do you quote the Protestant bible to hide that YOUR CATHOLIC BIBLE teaches that YOU are born again "by/of" water.
Just be honest.
Admit that the Catholic Cult teaches that "water baptism" is the means of Spiritual Regeneration.
No need to hide it.
We know what your cult of Mary teaches.
Make Mary proud, just admit what you are, and what you believe....about that water..
Stay away from the KJV< as your cult does not use it.

Click to expand...

Hi behold,

Do you love, honor and respect the Mother of God?