Why only 144,000?

Davy · Aug 24, 2020

Taken said:
[QUOTE="Davy, post: 818183, member: 7759]

Jesus does not come to gather His Church until the end of the tribulation, as He said in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Disagree with you.

Glory to God,
Taken

That is your right to disagree with me. But please make sure it's actually me that you are disagreeing with, and not our Lord Jesus in His Word...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Davy · Aug 24, 2020

Taken said:
Why tell me that?

My response to you was based on my interpretation of what you said in your post #28; you referred to a post by justbyfaith that was originally written to me, where justbyfaith was claiming that what I wrote was substantiating JW theory. So when you said the following...

"No. He is relaying information that "Others" have shared with him, concerning "them"."

... it pointed directly to me, your "He" in your above statement. The real fact is that I was not substantiating any JW doctrine, simply because I am not familiar with what doctrine justbyfaith was referring to. And I stated I am not a Jehovah's Witness (JW).

Taken · Aug 24, 2020

Davy said:
Disagree with you.

Glory to God,
Taken

That is your right to disagree with me. But please make sure it's actually me that you are disagreeing with, and not our Lord Jesus in His Word...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV[/QUOTE]

Yep, I'm sure.
You may understand God is Omnipresent.
So is Jesus, Whom we Learned ..
He is Jesus, the Son of God
He is the Son of man
He is the Lord
He is the Lamb,
He is the Christ...etc.
Get it?
Different Titles, doing different Things.

Pay attention to which Title is doing What and When.

It is the "Lord" who leaves Heaven, goes to the Clouds Calls UP to Him men "IN Christ"..That is The "Lords" Church.

Men IN Christ are already MADE Whole,
Body Crucified, Soul Restored/Saved, spirit Quickened...already forgiven, sanctified, justified, and prepared to be Redeemed, at the moment the "Lord calls Them", UP to the Clouds...NOT Heaven.
You mentioned "escape" as if it is some bad or mysterious thing. It isn't.
It is the Same as in Noah's Day...the Saved were Risen UP above the Earth...where ON Earth chaos and destruction was occurring.
The "Lamb" starts the Tribulation, by, in Heaven Opening the SEALS...which begins chaos, ON Earth...quakes, one world Ruler, Religions punished, fear, armies controlling people...and people being Killed for their Faith.
So go Read whose Wrath is Happening ON Earth...as the SEALS are opened...Rev 6:16...
And the Lord is IN the Clouds with Those IN Christ (His Church)...1 Thes:15-17
And the Son of man...still in Heaven.

It is a long deep study.

Glory to God,
Taken

Davy · Aug 24, 2020

Taken said:
There is no task given them.

There certainly is a task during the tribulation given Christ's elect, Jesus revealed it in His Olivet discourse, specifically in Mark 13:9-13. He also revealed it in Revelation 6:9-11. Peter revealed it at the end of Acts 2 with quoting from Joel 2, which is for the end of this world. It is written that even the gainsayer won't be able to resist what is spoken by The Holy Spirit in that hour through Christ's elect when they are delivered up at the end (Luke 21).

Do you not know what is going on Then?

The Holy Spirit Comforter shows me as I stay in His Word, which was a promise by Jesus to those who keep... His Word of Truth.

Rapture has already Occured.

That idea is heresy. The gathering of the Church to Christ Jesus is still sometime in the future.

Who exactly do you think THEY are that come out of the Tribulation?

If you had read what I wrote, but you didn't, you would know that. But it's easy enough to read the Scripture itself.

Taken · Aug 24, 2020

Davy said:
My response to you was based on my interpretation of what you said in your post #28; you referred to a post by justbyfaith that was originally written to me, where justbyfaith was claiming that what I wrote was substantiating JW theory. So when you said the following...

... it pointed directly to me, your "He" in your above statement. The real fact is that I was not substantiating any JW doctrine, simply because I am not familiar with what doctrine justbyfaith was referring to. And I stated I am not a Jehovah's Witness (JW).

I will have to go back and look at the posts and get back to you...but almost supper time, so later.

Glory to God,
Taken

Taken · Aug 24, 2020

Davy said:
There certainly is a task during the tribulation given Christ's elect, Jesus revealed it in His Olivet discourse, specifically in Mark 13:9-13. He also revealed it in Revelation 6:9-11. Peter revealed it at the end of Acts 2 with quoting from Joel 2, which is for the end of this world. It is written that even the gainsayer won't be able to resist what is spoken by The Holy Spirit in that hour through Christ's elect when they are delivered up at the end (Luke 21).

The Holy Spirit Comforter shows me as I stay in His Word, which was a promise by Jesus to those who keep... His Word of Truth.

That reply does not answer about "them"

That idea is heresy. The gathering of the Church to Christ Jesus is still sometime in the future.

Really? Good grief...stay in context... the whole tribulation is future...the Rapture is Future JUST Before the Tribulation.

If you had read what I wrote, but you didn't, you would know that. But it's easy enough to read the Scripture itself.

Were done here. You can not stay on point.

Glory to God,
Taken

Davy · Aug 24, 2020

Taken said:
Yep, I'm sure.
You may understand God is Omnipresent.
So is Jesus, Whom we Learned ..
He is Jesus, the Son of God
He is the Son of man
He is the Lord
He is the Lamb,
He is the Christ...etc.
Get it?
Different Titles, doing different Things.

Pay attention to which Title is doing What and When.

It is the "Lord" who leaves Heaven, goes to the Clouds Calls UP to Him men "IN Christ"..That is The "Lords" Church.

Men IN Christ are already MADE Whole,
Body Crucified, Soul Restored/Saved, spirit Quickened...already forgiven, sanctified, justified, and prepared to be Redeemed, at the moment the "Lord calls Them", UP to the Clouds...NOT Heaven.
You mentioned "escape" as if it is some bad or mysterious thing. It isn't.
It is the Same as in Noah's Day...the Saved were Risen UP above the Earth...where ON Earth chaos and destruction was occurring.
The "Lamb" starts the Tribulation, by, in Heaven Opening the SEALS...which begins chaos, ON Earth...quakes, one world Ruler, Religions punished, fear, armies controlling people...and people being Killed for their Faith.
So go Read whose Wrath is Happening ON Earth...as the SEALS are opened...Rev 6:16...
And the Lord is IN the Clouds with Those IN Christ (His Church)...1 Thes:15-17
And the Son of man...still in Heaven.

It is a long deep study.

Glory to God,
Taken

Clearly, you've gone off on a mad religious tangent with all that, which has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

Davy · Aug 24, 2020

Taken said:
That reply does not answer about "them"

Really? Good grief...stay in context... the whole tribulation is future...the Rapture is Future JUST Before the Tribulation.

Were done here. You can not stay on point.

Glory to God,
Taken

I'm not the one off the topic. The topic is about Rev.7 and the 144,000 of Christ's elect.

I realize you are a Pre-tribulationist. I am not. Jesus showed in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 that His coming to gather His Church is after the tribulation, so what He said is what I believe, which means a Post-tribulational coming and gathering of His Church. Anything else other than the timing He revealed there is heresy.

And this is not a rapture debate thread.

Taken · Aug 24, 2020

Davy said:
Clearly, you've gone off on a mad religious tangent with all that, which has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

That's fine...it was of no great expectation that you might want to know who is doing what, and why you preach what is not True regarding the Tribulation...and Rapture.
Doesn't effect me.

Sorry I misposted to you, it was intended for another.
Done!

Glory to God,
Taken

Randy Kluth · Aug 24, 2020

Enoch111 said:
Why? Everything is plainly stated. So all it takes is faith to believe that when God says something He means it.

12,000 saved Israelites/tribe x 12 tribes = 144,000 redeemed Jews.

I explained why it's difficult. There are no tribes any more, and here 12 tribes of 12,000 each are being presented as significant in the end times. What did you think of my explanation?

Enoch111 · Aug 24, 2020

Randy Kluth said:
...There are no tribes any more...

While men do not see any tribes, that does not mean that God does not see men as belonging to tribes. In fact the priestly tribe is well-represented among Jews today, with variations on the Hebrew word "cohen" (priest).

quietthinker · Aug 25, 2020

K9Buck said:
Is it because God is unable to accommodate any more than that? How did he arrive at 144,000 rather than 144,827 or 143, 822? Exactly 144,000? Seems weird to me.

An incorrect assumption has generated the wrong question K9Buck. Go back and reread the context after praying for understanding.

Giuliano · Aug 25, 2020

K9Buck said:
Is it because God is unable to accommodate any more than that? How did he arrive at 144,000 rather than 144,827 or 143, 822? Exactly 144,000? Seems weird to me.

They are organized by groups sort of the way armies are organized.

K9Buck said:
Just men but not women? Why?

The 144,000 describes beings who are both male and female. That's why Revelation describes them as "male virgins." That's an odd phrase. It's the only time "virgins" is used in a way that doesn't mean women.

You get 288,000 if you count the male halves and the female halves. That 288 shows up in a hidden way in Genesis.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved <rachaph = 288> upon the face of the waters.

When their jobs are done and they're back in Heaven, there is neither male nor female, and they revert to being the 144,000 "male virgins" which are both male and female, just as God is both male and female.

They started off with their name in the Lamb's Book of Life. They agreed to help him do God's work on the earth. You could call the original Israel. It is these who God will not even one to be lost. Even if they stumble, God will make sure they are saved.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

When Moses counted the people, there were 600,000 adult males. That included some converts of course. They had been "added" to Israel, or to use Paul's phrase "grafted" on. Those added on branches do not have the same guarantee as the original Israel -- or as Paul put, not all Israel is Israel. Gentiles added on do not have that guarantee.

Think of it as doctors and nurses volunteering to help people in a foreign country afflicted by a plague. When they come in contact with sick people, they can get sick themselves. The original Israel got "sick" when they came to the earth -- they fell into the same sins they came to lead others out of. God's guarantee to them is justified because they volunteered for the work -- they didn't need to come to this world. It was because they were willing to become sick themselves that they came -- so others could be cured -- and God will save them all the original 144,000 in the end.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Jane_Doe22 · Aug 25, 2020

Ron Coates said:
Thanks for the teaching. #13 tells me why they didn't go back. I knew there was more to it and you just showed it to me.
As far as all the Levites returning to Judah, some stayed behind in the northern kingdom. I know this because God has told me, and also given me proof through my parents' family tree and historical documentaries, which put my ancestors and some of the ten tribes at the same place at the same time, that I am a Levite. That being Normandy in the 1500s.
Further research confirmed that my last name originated in Normandy, as far as France was concerned. Twice. It appeared much earlier in England, but it originated with the 10, as I call them. Some of them went to Scandinavia and some went to Great Britain.
I am not descended from Aaron and Moses, though we share a common ancestor in Levi. I am Levi'im. God made me a worship leader.
Until last Fall, I thought of myself as a Christian. I was glad that I was a Christian. I love my God. The only adjustment I've made is that I now call myself a Messianic disciple. Saved by faith in Jesus alone. 100% atonement. Though I don't have an issue with the Jews, God told me that I'm a Levite. He also said that He would wake up the Levites first. I believe that N.T. giving is put forth in 2 Corinthians chs. 8 & 9 and replaces tithing.
As far as the J.W.s go, I'll have to take your word for it. I try to seek God for His interpretation of scripture. I'm not saying I'm infallible because I know I'm not. I once read a bit of their material and it felt like an iron hand was trying to take over my mind so I avoid them. The same with the Mormons and every other sect that does not line up with the Apostle's Creed.
After reading Proverbs once, the wisdom of God showed me I was a fool. I cried out, "what hope is there for a fool?" God led me to the scripture that says there is more hope for a fool than for one who is wise in his own eyes." Another time I was faced with some stumbling I was doing. I was perplexed. God showed me that a righteous man may stumble 7 times, but he keeps getting back up. Which described me to a tee. Thankfully I don't stumble like I used to.
Finally, whenever I think about the 10, it breaks my heart all over again. Jesus has allowed me to feel His heart in regard to His people. I find it difficult to explain how painful it was. This includes the church and Israel as a whole. There is another change with me, I say shalom. Shalom.

This was a well thought out post, thank you for sharing your faith journey with us.

Aside: I'm a "Mormon" and joyfully could sign my name at the bottom of the Apostles Creed.

Stan B · Aug 26, 2020

Harvest 1874 said:
“

Why only a 144,000?

To properly understand this question please see our blog post on "How to Study the Book of Revelation, Part 15", the confusion here is in the rightly distinguishing between what part of this statement is to be taken literal and what is symbolic.

A typical false teacher. We don't need another false teacher to explain to us that the Bible is a lie!

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Why only 144,000?

Davy

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