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YeshuaFan1

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If you are going to accuse Adventists of getting something wrong, best to make sure what it is they actually do teach before doing so.


I would suggest that consumed covers things fairly well.
But the question still remains that neither you nor anyone else has attempted to answer.
In the dark ages the state powers working on behalf of the church learned to torture people in unimaginably disgusting and evil ways in order to extract some sorry confession from them. They learned to induce a state of excruciating pain but just short of taking their life. They could keep people alive for days yet in constant mental and physical agony. This they learned from Rome, only enhanced and took it to new levels. No-one in their right mind today would suggest this wickedness was a just, merciful, loving thing to do. We all, without exception, utterly condemn such practices and they are condemned even by secular authorities in most countries. Those that do practice such barbaric practices today are considered the bottom dwellers of society, and rightly so, and worthy of nothing but hate and loathing.
Yet God, the Creator of the universe, is accredited with even greater skills. The Savior is said to be not only worse, but God has added a dimension that worldly dictators could only dream of. God does it for eternity. Without stop or pause. And in conditions that would normally destroy and kill even the most strongest man, God must work daily individual miracles on a population described as the sand of the sea just to keep them alive in order to repeat the process, again, and again, and again.

And Christians have the utter shameless gall to call this justice.

Yes, you can find some obscure scriptures that seem to suggest your theory. But those same scriptures can be used to suggest the opposite also. What you have to do to support your theory against that opposite is to do so against all logic and reason and against everything the rest of the scriptures tell you concerning the nature of the God you claim to know. And not one person on this entire forum can answer that challenge.
No-one can justify eternal torment in the face of all we know of the character of God. I know why, because it can't be done.
Is it justice to have a Hitler or a Stalin getting same ending as a Grandma who refused Jesus as her Lord
 

YeshuaFan1

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So how can it be "properly as taught in Scripture" if it is Annihilationism? That is NOT what is taught in Scripture at all. No one is vaporized in hellfire.

THEOPEDIA
Annihilationism is the belief that the final fate of those who are not saved is literal and final death and destruction. It runs counter to the mainstream traditional Christian understanding of hell as eternal suffering and separation from God.

In contrast to the more traditional view, which holds that the wicked will remain conscious in hell forever, annhilationism teaches that, whether or not God may use hell to exact some conscious punishment for sins, he will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked completely, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality.
Jesus stated that those there suffer forever, how is that burnt up?
 

BarneyFife

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So how can it be "properly as taught in Scripture" if it is Annihilationism? That is NOT what is taught in Scripture at all. No one is vaporized in hellfire.

THEOPEDIA
Annihilationism is the belief that the final fate of those who are not saved is literal and final death and destruction. It runs counter to the mainstream traditional Christian understanding of hell as eternal suffering and separation from God.

In contrast to the more traditional view, which holds that the wicked will remain conscious in hell forever, annhilationism teaches that, whether or not God may use hell to exact some conscious punishment for sins, he will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked completely, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality.
What is to become of those who are not caught up to heaven with the Lord?
"Wait on the Lord, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it." Ps. 37:34."The Lord hath a controversy with the nations; He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord." Jer. 25:31 (2 Thess. 1:7, 8).

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Rev. 20:5.

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." ...You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:1, Malachi 4:3).

“Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before!” (Isaiah 47:14).

"And the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also; and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

"For evil doers shall be cut off; but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth." Ps. 37:9.

How many lost souls are being punished in hell today?
“The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust
under punishment for the day of judgment”
(2 Peter 2:9).

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

“Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:15).

“The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).

“He will reward each according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).

“That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not ... do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few” (Luke 12:47, 48).

“Rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
“The soul who sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20).

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:10).
I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. … You … shall be no more forever” (Ezekiel 28:18, 19).

“For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more. … The enemies of the Lord … shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away” (Psalm 37:10, 20).

“God … gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
 
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justbyfaith

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What is to become of those who are not caught up to heaven with the Lord?
"Wait on the Lord, and keep His way, and He shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it." Ps. 37:34."The Lord hath a controversy with the nations; He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord." Jer. 25:31 (2 Thess. 1:7, 8).

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Rev. 20:5.

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9.

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." ...You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:1, Malachi 4:3).

“Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before!” (Isaiah 47:14).

"And the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also; and the works that are therein shall be burned up." 2 Peter 3:10.

"For evil doers shall be cut off; but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth." Ps. 37:9.

How many lost souls are being punished in hell today?
“The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust
under punishment for the day of judgment”
(2 Peter 2:9).

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

“Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:15).

“The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).

“He will reward each according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).

“That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not ... do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few” (Luke 12:47, 48).

“Rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).
“The soul who sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20).

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:10).
I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. … You … shall be no more forever” (Ezekiel 28:18, 19).

“For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more. … The enemies of the Lord … shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away” (Psalm 37:10, 20).

“God … gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
You should notice that after many of these events that you have spoken of, there is a resurrection and a Great White Throne Judgment that takes place.

And Revelation 20:10 most likely of all scriptures declares what it will be like for those who will be cast into the lake of fire.

Personally, I am not taking chances on whether my judgment will be less severe, in that I am merely annihilated rather than having to endure eternal torments.

I am putting my trust in Jesus Christ and what He did for me on the Cross.

As concerning my own fate therefore, it does not matter whether there is annihilation or eternal torments.

But as concerning the fate of those who do not receive Christ, I believe that it is more fruitful for them (as a deterrent) to understand that they will have eternal torments if they do not ever repent, than that they will sleep for ever. The latter, impaho, is a reward rather than a punishment. However the holy scripture is clear:

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The nature of this punishment is that it is everlasting. And the nature of it can also be found in Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50. It is a furnace of fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. The fire there is never quenched (Mark 9:42-50). And if the worm in that place doesn't die, what makes you think that you will?
 

Giuliano

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So how can it be "properly as taught in Scripture" if it is Annihilationism? That is NOT what is taught in Scripture at all. No one is vaporized in hellfire.

THEOPEDIA
Annihilationism is the belief that the final fate of those who are not saved is literal and final death and destruction. It runs counter to the mainstream traditional Christian understanding of hell as eternal suffering and separation from God.

In contrast to the more traditional view, which holds that the wicked will remain conscious in hell forever, annhilationism teaches that, whether or not God may use hell to exact some conscious punishment for sins, he will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked completely, leaving only the righteous to live on in immortality.
So death means living on somehow? That's now what the word death means.
 

justbyfaith

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So death means living on somehow? That's now what the word death means.
Death does in fact mean separation.

Physical death is separation of the spirit and soul from the body.

Spiritual death is separation of your spirit from God's Spirit.

And since His Spirit is living water (John 6:35, John 4:13-14, John 7:37-39), you cannot be satisfied if you are separated from God.
 

Enoch111

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“God … gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
"Perish" does NOT mean vaporization or annihilation. So start there. Then properly interpret the Scriptures you quoted. Annihilation means total extinction. And that is definitely not the purpose of Hell according to Scripture.
 

Enoch111

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Jesus stated that those there suffer forever, how is that burnt up?
Exactly. Annihilationists have been making Jesus out to be a liar ever since they manufactured their lies. Mark 9 should be sufficient to refute those lies.
 
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BarneyFife

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You should notice that after many of these events that you have spoken of, there is a resurrection and a Great White Throne Judgment that takes place.

And Revelation 20:10 most likely of all scriptures declares what it will be like for those who will be cast into the lake of fire.

Personally, I am not taking chances on whether my judgment will be less severe, in that I am merely annihilated rather than having to endure eternal torments.

I am putting my trust in Jesus Christ and what He did for me on the Cross.

As concerning my own fate therefore, it does not matter whether there is annihilation or eternal torments.

But as concerning the fate of those who do not receive Christ, I believe that it is more fruitful for them (as a deterrent) to understand that they will have eternal torments if they do not ever repent, than that they will sleep for ever. The latter, impaho, is a reward rather than a punishment. However the holy scripture is clear:

Mat 25:46, And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The nature of this punishment is that it is everlasting. And the nature of it can also be found in Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50. It is a furnace of fire where there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. The fire there is never quenched (Mark 9:42-50). And if the worm in that place doesn't die, what makes you think that you will?
The words "everlasting" and "eternal" (when referring to the disposition of the wicked) simply mean that they are final. The scriptural evidence for eternal torment is weak, at best. The language is indeed strong but it is figurative hyperbole. Sodom and Gomorrah suffered eternal fire. Where is the fire today? People will believe what they will. Even if the evidence for both sides of the argument were equal (which they are not), I would rely on the maxim: "God is love," and not that our Creator and Redeemer is a vindictive monster who threatens people to get them to love and obey Him.

This is why I love God:

“God … gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

This is quite enough for me. No threat of torture required.
 
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Earburner

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Esau believed he needed Red Stew or he would die, too, yes
and spiritually speaking, i do not disagree. We got Jesus bc we needed a Jesus, not bc Yah did
amen, and No son of man may die for another's sins there it is eh. So again, dont get me wrong, Christ died for our sins, but imo understanding that correctly requires that we take personal responsibility for it, I killed Immanuel all by myself when i chose the world over Him, and i can call "Jesus, You are the greatest, I worship you on my knees" worship if i want to, until i am blue in the face even, but that is not worship at all, according to our own Book right, as well as violating what Jesus Himself tells us to do, in many places

now i should prolly reiterate that this is not some belief that one can just switch off i guess, it takes a walk, a slog, out of, and there is even a cliff you gotta basically jump off of, but it should be noted imo that Esau is never condemned for eating red stew; the statement is merely made that Esau sold his birthright, which is after all his perfect right to do so if he wishes, which is why we cannot Quote "and this was a bad idea" even if it is inferred, and of course is a bad idea, but then Yah is not our Baal anyway, our "Lord," like we currently believe; Yah does not go around Lording It over anyone, and, in a vignette that trust me no Preacher will ever attempt to dissect from a pulpit, we are shown that Esau, whom Yah had hated, was not like punished or anything for the belief--which makes no sense in your model wadr--and even apparently inherited his birthright, which also makes no sense, right? Esau sells his birthright to Jacob, and it is Jacob who leaves? lol
To get the the point of your "wordiness", yes Esau did trade off His "birthright" for the "soup line", which is akin to what Jesus offers through God as our birthright, the requirement to be "born again" of His Spirit, in order to enter into the KoG/KoH.

Unfortunately, many can't step out of the
"soup line" long enough, to consider their need for eternal sustenance, which is God the indwelling presence of God Himself.
 

justbyfaith

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Go ahead and bank on staying wicked and having the fate of eternal sleep rather than eternal punishment....it's no skin off my back.

But you will be wrong; and will be in for a rude shock when, expecting to enter into eternal sleep, you find yourself cast into eternal fire that shall never be quenched, where your worm does not die...I suppose that worms are more enduring than we are because they live for ever in hell but we do not.

Fact is, we are the same as worms; and will not die if we are subjected to that fire.
 

BarneyFife

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Go ahead and bank on staying wicked and having the fate of eternal sleep rather than eternal punishment....it's no skin off my back.
Yeah, why would one Christian care about what happens to another?
Don't be ridiculous. Who on this board is planning to live wicked lives? Talk about your straw man arguments. Don't you have somewhere else to troll?
 
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VictoryinJesus

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In contrast to the more traditional view, which holds that the wicked will remain conscious in hell forever, annhilationism teaches that, whether or not God may use hell to exact some conscious punishment for sins, he will eventually destroy or annihilate the wicked completely


Zechariah 13:1 Lexicon: "In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.

Zechariah 13:2 Lexicon: "It will come about in that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.

I will also remove

אַעֲבִ֥יר

(a·'a·vir)

5674a: to pass over, through, or by, pass on

a prim. root

the prophets

הַנְּבִיאִ֛ים

(han·ne·vi·'im)

5030: a spokesman, speaker, prophet

from an unused word

and the unclean

הַטֻּמְאָ֖ה

(hat·tum·'ah)

2932a: uncleanness

from tame

spirit

ר֥וּחַ

(ru·ach)

7307: breath, wind, spirit

from an unused word

from the land.

הָאָֽרֶץ׃

(ha·'a·retz.)

776: earth, lan


Zechariah 13:1-2 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

what fountain shall be opened? Proverbs 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you (Unclean): but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

what fountain opened?
 
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justbyfaith

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Talk about your straw man arguments. Don't you have somewhere else to troll?

Accusing me of trolling is characteristic of the hatred that Jesus said all believers would experience from the world.

Yeah, why would one Christian care about what happens to another?

I wasn't saying that I don't care....I was saying that it is no skin off my back...there is a difference.

If I didn't care I wouldn't be "trolling" these boards.
 

BarneyFife

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Accusing me of trolling is characteristic of the hatred that Jesus said all believers would experience from the world.



I wasn't saying that I don't care....I was saying that it is no skin off my back...there is a difference.

If I didn't care I wouldn't be "trolling" these boards.
Awww, did you get persecuted?
Yeah, I'm sure Jesus would be fine with "no skin off my back."
 
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