The Decoy Gospel

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Episkopos

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She like you are laying burdens on men, no more no less.


A burden for the truth maybe...hopefully. A burden to enter into the life that Jesus came to bring us...a resurrection life that is entered into by faith and diligently seeking the Lord. There are places of abiding right now in the heavenlies...that are vacant because people think the earth is their home...whereas it doesn't have to be that way. The church is supposed to be dwelling in heavenly places....translated into the kingdom in order to bear witness of the eternal life to people who dwell on the earth. A light to the world.

But the church has lost that high calling and exchanged it for a low calling with a guarantee of an eternal life of comfort then...for a life lived in comfort now.

There is no kingdom logic there.

So maybe some repentance is required...some conviction of the Spirit that is so hated as being evil in these perilous times.

The discomfort and agony of the Spirit ends with life whereas the ease and comfort of lies today brings death.
 
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CharismaticLady

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She like you are laying burdens on men, no more no less.

Is obeying your Spirit-filled conscience a burden? You are just doing what comes naturally to your divine nature. What IS a burden is only having an old sinful nature and trying to behave AGAINST your nature in order to be righteous without the empowering of the Spirit, but just your own will-power. That is a struggle; the struggle shown in Romans 7:14-23 that many who believe in false doctrines believe is about the life of a Christian! Not!

And there are some I've read on here who are clueless to what obeying your conscience means in God's eyes (like 380). 1 John 3:21-24; Philippians 3:16. If you are living up to the level the Spirit has brought you to in maturity in the Lord, even if it is not the top of perfection, our Advocate cleanses us of all sin. 1 John 1:7 That is sinlessness. I don't teach "sinless perfection" as @Enoch111 accuses me in ignorance and I forgive him, as perfection is another subject 2 Peter 1:5-7 in the process of glorification, not sinlessness.
 
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mjrhealth

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Is obeying your Spirit-filled conscience a burden? You are just doing what comes naturally to your divine nature. What IS a burden is only having an old sinful nature and trying to behave AGAINST your nature in order to be righteous without the empowering of the Spirit, but just your own will-power. That is a struggle; the struggle shown in Romans 7:14-23 that many who believe in false doctrines believe is about the life of a Christian! Not!

And there are some I've read on here who are clueless to what obeying your conscience means in God's eyes (like 380). 1 John 3:21-24; Philippians 3:16. If you are living up to the level the Spirit has brought you to in maturity in the Lord, even if it is not the top of perfection, our Advocate cleanses us of all sin. 1 John 1:7 That is sinlessness. I don't teach "sinless perfection" as @Enoch111 accuses me in ignorance and I forgive him, as perfection is another subject 2 Peter 1:5-7 in the process of glorification, not sinlessness.
Lets put it this way

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

you are not the holy spirit, it is not your job, secondly that is for those who dont believe, which seems to include a lot of "christians"

secondly

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

so why is it that you must run around condemning those who follow after Christ, that is not your job is it.

Than should I add

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So would you be calling Him a liar.
 

Enoch111

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I don't teach "sinless perfection" as @Enoch111 accuses me in ignorance and I forgive him, as perfection is another subject 2 Peter 1:5-7 in the process of glorification, not sinlessness.
Not in ignorance, since glorification IS NOT a process. You are so thoroughly muddled that it would require a total unraveling of your beliefs for you to get straightened out.

JUSTIFICATION IS NOT A PROCESS
SANCTIFICATION IS INDEED A PROCESS
GLORIFICATION IS NOT A PROCESS

And you still do not understand imputed righteousness (like a few others around here). Which means you must go back to square one.
 
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Episkopos

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So far the truth has escaped you every time your were confronted with it.


You are a religious person. For you the truth is in a dogmatic statement that is without life. It is a moral stance. And one has a moral stance OUTSIDE the life of God. By taking a position based on the natural man...who is moral and makes his own choices based on his own judgment. So is it a surprise that carnal men will choose to believe what are seen as Christian "fundamentals? Once believed in, the natural man will close his mind and heart like a steel trap believing that it is information that saves you. A small chink and the whole facade comes down. So then there is no love in the defense of the indoctrination. There is just the believe or die...making any who disagree with the whole package to be heretics.

Jesus said..."There is coming a time when men will kill you thinking they do God a favour." How far off from that are you still wavering? Are you not in the moral majority of indoctrinated believers? Are you not under a hypnotic suggestion that reacts against the truth..which you have been programmed to believe is a lie?

You fail to realize that HOW you hold on to what you think is right and truthful is the very same way the Pharisees did...dogmatically.

Christianity is not a set of things to believe in for salvation. The kingdom of God is life in the Spirit.

You can read things like that in the bible and even think you are doing it...without understanding the depth of the meaning of what actual eternal life is.
 

mjrhealth

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You are a religious person. For you the truth is in a dogmatic statement that is without life. It is a moral stance. And one has a moral stance OUTSIDE the life of God. By taking a position based on the natural man...who is moral and makes his own choices based on his own judgment. So is it a surprise that carnal men will choose to believe what are seen as Christian "fundamentals? Once believed in, the natural man will close his mind and heart like a steel trap believing that it is information that saves you. A small chink and the whole facade comes down. So then there is no love in the defense of the indoctrination. There is just the believe or die...making any who disagree with the whole package to be heretics.

Jesus said..."There is coming a time when men will kill you thinking they do God a favour." How far off from that are you still wavering? Are you not in the moral majority of indoctrinated believers? Are you not under a hypnotic suggestion that reacts against the truth..which you have been programmed to believe is a lie?

You fail to realize that HOW you hold on to what you think is right and truthful is the very same way the Pharisees did...dogmatically.

Christianity is not a set of things to believe in for salvation. The kingdom of God is life in the Spirit.

You can read things like that in the bible and even think you are doing it...without understanding the depth of the meaning of what actual eternal life is.
The bible states. it is by grace you are saved by faith,it is a gift, it is you who is setting all these rules, thats what religious men do.
 
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Candidus

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Not in ignorance, since glorification IS NOT a process. You are so thoroughly muddled that it would require a total unraveling of your beliefs for you to get straightened out.

JUSTIFICATION IS NOT A PROCESS
SANCTIFICATION IS INDEED A PROCESS
GLORIFICATION IS NOT A PROCESS

And you still do not understand imputed righteousness (like a few others around here). Which means you must go back to square one.
The Bible never says that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to anyone! All kinds of doctrines have sprung up over the misuse of a Biblical term. It has resulted in Gnostic myths being incorporated into the once pure doctrine of Christianity. There is no mystical transfer of character or sin from one person to another. That is an impossibility. If it were a truth, then anyone could be guilt free by "imputing" all their flaws and sins to the tree out back. If transfer is possible, we do not need a Savior in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament sacrifices would have been effective. We know that this is not so because we are informed that "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins." (Heb.10:4). In the Bible, the transfer of sins is always presented as an impossibility.

Much of the disagreement over imputation is the meaning that people put behind it. It means to "recon" to "count," for it is an accounting term. We can be counted righteous as described in Romans 4:3, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Abraham's faith was "counted" for righteousness. (v. 5). Because of the atonement of Christ, we can be forgiven and accounted righteous. Not because there was any mystical transfer of Christ's righteousness to us, but because when He has forgiven us, no unrighteousness stands in the way. We are counted righteous by faith!

The problem comes in when people change the definition into something the term did not mean in Bible times. "A transfer of merit or character" is the meaning many force upon it today. The transfer of someone else's merit of demerit is not only a logical impossibility, it is a Scriptural impossibility. It is mysticism, pure and simple. It is something that cannot be proved in nature or in Scripture. We usually describe thoughts as these as fantasies or fairytales, and rightfully so! When we contemplate what happened on the Cross and the plan of God to save mankind, shouldn't we base our understanding upon the Scriptural facts that are revealed instead of the theological fantasies of man?

The term "impute" is a Biblical term. Since we append meaning to this word, I like to substitute the meanings to see if they make sense.

Romans chapter four is quite possibly the best place to start since this is where the term is the most abused.

The Greek term logid'zomai, is used 11 times in Chapter 4 alone. It is translated in the King James Version as "counted" two times; "reckoned" three times; "imputed" or "imputeth" six times.

Now let's look at the times Romans 4 uses "impute."

Romans 4:6, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works..."

Now, if we assume a transfer of character, it would read...

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God [mystically transfers Christ's] righteousness without works..."

If we assume the same use as it is used in the rest of the context of Romans four...

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God [counts or recons as] righteousness without works..."

Conclusion: Both will work, but the insertion of a "mystical transfer of character" is not in any way essential to the passage.

Romans 4:8, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not [mystically transfer] sin."

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not [count or recon] sin."

Count [their] sin is the natural meaning here.


Romans 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith he had yet being uncircumcised; that righteousness might be imputed upon them also."

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith he had yet being uncircumcised; that righteousness might be [mystically transferred] upon them also."

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith he had yet being uncircumcised; that righteousness might be [counted by faith] upon them also."

Both will work, but without any Scriptural precedence, mystical imputation has nothing to support it.


Romans 4:22, "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."

Same as 4:11.

Romans 4:23, "Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him."

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was [transferred] to him."

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was [counted or reckoned] to him."


Both can work, but once again, not a single instance in all of Scriptures states that character can be transferred.


Romans 4:24, "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."

"But for us also, to whom it shall be [transferred,] if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."

"But for us also, to whom it shall be [counted,] if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."


The statement of "the imputed righteousness of Christ" is nowhere to be found in Scripture. To understand "imputed" as "counted" of "reckoned" as righteous fits in naturally everywhere. There is no need to force an unstated mysticism upon this word when the Scriptures never endorse it.
 
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Episkopos

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The Bible never says that the righteousness of Christ is imputed to anyone! All kinds of doctrines have sprung up over the misuse of a Biblical term. It has resulted in Gnostic myths being incorporated into the once pure doctrine of Christianity. There is no mystical transfer of character or sin from one person to another. That is an impossibility. If it were a truth, then anyone could be guilt free by "imputing" all their flaws and sins to the tree out back. If transfer is possible, we do not need a Savior in Jesus Christ. The Old Testament sacrifices would have been effective. We know that this is not so because we are informed that "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins." (Heb.10:4). In the Bible, the transfer of sins is always presented as an impossibility.

Much of the disagreement over imputation is the meaning that people put behind it. It means to "recon" to "count," for it is an accounting term. We can be counted righteous as described in Romans 4:3, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Abraham's faith was "counted" for righteousness. (v. 5). Because of the atonement of Christ, we can be forgiven and accounted righteous. Not because there was any mystical transfer of Christ's righteousness to us, but because when He has forgiven us, no unrighteousness stands in the way. We are counted righteous by faith!

The problem comes in when people change the definition into something the term did not mean in Bible times. "A transfer of merit or character" is the meaning many force upon it today. The transfer of someone else's merit of demerit is not only a logical impossibility, it is a Scriptural impossibility. It is mysticism, pure and simple. It is something that cannot be proved in nature or in Scripture. We usually describe thoughts as these as fantasies or fairytales, and rightfully so! When we contemplate what happened on the Cross and the plan of God to save mankind, shouldn't we base our understanding upon the Scriptural facts that are revealed instead of the theological fantasies of man?

The term "impute" is a Biblical term. Since we append meaning to this word, I like to substitute the meanings to see if they make sense.

Romans chapter four is quite possibly the best place to start since this is where the term is the most abused.

The Greek term logid'zomai, is used 11 times in Chapter 4 alone. It is translated in the King James Version as "counted" two times; "reckoned" three times; "imputed" or "imputeth" six times.

Now let's look at the times Romans 4 uses "impute."

Romans 4:6, "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works..."

Now, if we assume a transfer of character, it would read...

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God [mystically transfers Christ's] righteousness without works..."

If we assume the same use as it is used in the rest of the context of Romans four...

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God [counts or recons as] righteousness without works..."

Conclusion: Both will work, but the insertion of a "mystical transfer of character" is not in any way essential to the passage.

Romans 4:8, "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not [mystically transfer] sin."

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not [count or recon] sin."

Count [their] sin is the natural meaning here.


Romans 4:11, "And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith he had yet being uncircumcised; that righteousness might be imputed upon them also."

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith he had yet being uncircumcised; that righteousness might be [mystically transferred] upon them also."

"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith he had yet being uncircumcised; that righteousness might be [counted by faith] upon them also."

Both will work, but without any Scriptural precedence, mystical imputation has nothing to support it.


Romans 4:22, "And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness."

Same as 4:11.

Romans 4:23, "Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him."

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was [transferred] to him."

"Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was [counted or reckoned] to him."


Both can work, but once again, not a single instance in all of Scriptures states that character can be transferred.


Romans 4:24, "But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."

"But for us also, to whom it shall be [transferred,] if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."

"But for us also, to whom it shall be [counted,] if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."


The statement of "the imputed righteousness of Christ" is nowhere to be found in Scripture. To understand "imputed" as "counted" of "reckoned" as righteous fits in naturally everywhere. There is no need to force an unstated mysticism upon this word when the Scriptures never endorse it.


Amen. Christ is our righteousness only as we enter into Him. His righteousness is never IN us. We are separate beings. We are not God.

1 Cor. 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Phil. 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

So a little thing like confusing ourselves with God (!!!) can lead to a host of scandalous errors.

Now people just have to understand that something being in God is not the same as something being in us. God is a separate person. (did I mention that we are not God?)

We do not take righteousness away from God for ourselves...

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

So then indoctrinated people will condemn those who uphold the righteousness of God before men who seek to exploit heaven for themselves...who impute righteousness to themselves falsely by hypnotic suggestion and indoctrination. (Has the devil not fully deceived the modern churches?)

So we must never declare ourselves as righteous...for any reason. That is self-righteousness.

Our righteousness is our own. God's righteousness is His own.

Any declaration of ownership on our part is about ourselves....not God
 
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mjrhealth

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We do not take righteousness away from God for ourselves...
Who ever said we did,we have no righteousness of our own, you even quoted it, that is the flesh that is a lie, that is all self, that is works. We only enter in because of His righteousness,

Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom_4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
 
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Episkopos

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Who ever said we did,we have no righteousness of our own, you even quoted it, that is the flesh that is a lie, that is all self, that is works. We only enter in because of His righteousness,

Rom_4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom_4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,


This is more proof that you don't understand what righteousness is. The above verses are about human righteousness.

Abraham had a human righteousness.

Cornelius had a human righteousness

Zacharias and Elizabeth had a human righteousness.

Noah had a human righteousness.

Lot had a human righteousness

Job had a human righteousness

ETC ETC ETC.....

Jesus came not to call the righteous (human), but sinners to repentance.

There's nothing wrong with a human righteousness. In fact a Christian is supposed to be LEARNING righteousness.

2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



 

CharismaticLady

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Lets put it this way

Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

you are not the holy spirit, it is not your job, secondly that is for those who dont believe, which seems to include a lot of "christians"

secondly

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

so why is it that you must run around condemning those who follow after Christ, that is not your job is it.

Than should I add

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So would you be calling Him a liar.

There are Christians who believe in Jesus as Savior - for eternal life. But they don't know Him as the Christ - the one who takes away the sin in them. You've only been taught about the first part, but reject the Christ. This is why I'm here trying to show you that you need the Christ. Otherwise, Jesus will say to you, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you who practice wickedness." See, they called Him "Lord" as you are doing, but the part of Jesus that makes us born again, you reject.

1 John 1 shows the contrast between light and darkness. Those in darkness rejected the Christ. They think they have a relationship with God, but have never been born of the light. Verse 9 is how to come into the light, and have all your sin taken away. Verse 7 is a true Christian who truly has fellowship with God and knows Jesus Christ. And verse 5 shows Who is the light.

Would you really like me to just leave you in darkness, so you can feel better and not condemned. That's what I'm trying to save you from!
 
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CharismaticLady

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Not in ignorance, since glorification IS NOT a process. You are so thoroughly muddled that it would require a total unraveling of your beliefs for you to get straightened out.

JUSTIFICATION IS NOT A PROCESS
SANCTIFICATION IS INDEED A PROCESS
GLORIFICATION IS NOT A PROCESS

And you still do not understand imputed righteousness (like a few others around here). Which means you must go back to square one.

Justification is not a process
Sanctification is not a process
Glorification is becoming like Christ in this lifetime, 2 Peter 1:5-7
 
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Nancy

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Justification is not a process
Sanctification is not a process
Glorification is becoming like Christ in this lifetime, 2 Peter 1:5-7

"Justification is not a process" = We are justified when we become born again?

"Sanctification is not a process" = We are immediately "set aside" for salvation and good works?

"Glorification is becoming like Christ in this lifetime" <--- DEF a process?


 

mjrhealth

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There are Christians who believe in Jesus as Savior - for eternal life. But they don't know Him as the Christ - the one who takes away the sin in them. You've only been taught about the first part, but reject the Christ. This is why I'm here trying to show you that you need the Christ. Otherwise, Jesus will say to you, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you who practice wickedness." See, they called Him "Lord" as you are doing, but the part of Jesus that makes us born again, you reject.

1 John 1 shows the contrast between light and darkness. Those in darkness rejected the Christ. They think they have a relationship with God, but have never been born of the light. Verse 9 is how to come into the light, and have all your sin taken away. Verse 7 is a true Christian who truly has fellowship with God and knows Jesus Christ. And verse 5 shows Who is the light.

Would you really like me to just leave you in darkness, so you can feel better and not condemned. That's what I'm trying to save you from!
IF they believe Him it is enough, why is it not enough for you. If you knew Hm as Christ you would not be here telling them they are not good enough. YEs many do not know Him at all, thats why they sit here reading teh bible arguing with one another, He is not alive to them Just a story character in the bible.
That bit, they worship me with their mouth but their heart is far from me.

They may no make the wedding feast, they may have to suffer the tribulation but if they believe it is enough for God, with that He can work with them. Stop making it a work.
 

CharismaticLady

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IF they believe Him it is enough, why is it not enough for you. If you knew Hm as Christ you would not be here telling them they are not good enough. YEs many do not know Him at all, thats why they sit here reading teh bible arguing with one another, He is not alive to them Just a story character in the bible.
That bit, they worship me with their mouth but their heart is far from me.

They may no make the wedding feast, they may have to suffer the tribulation but if they believe it is enough for God, with that He can work with them. Stop making it a work.

Of course I would warn you! Do you think I shouldn't care? I should just let you bury your head like an ostrich, so that what you can't see won't hurt you?
 

mjrhealth

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Of course I would warn you! Do you think I shouldn't care? I should just let you bury your head like an ostrich, so that what you can't see won't hurt you?
Hurt me, is that what you are trying to do, for some one who does not sin you love telling everyone else they are wrong. Why do you add so many burdens to people. it is Christ that worketh in a man, what has that to do with you.
 

CharismaticLady

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Hurt me, is that what you are trying to do, for some one who does not sin you love telling everyone else they are wrong. Why do you add so many burdens to people. it is Christ that worketh in a man, what has that to do with you.

Hurt you? What makes you say that? What you believe is only half right, but the other half is a doctrine of demons to keep you a slave to sin. If you are okay with that, then I won't bother you again. I'll just shake the dust off my feet and you can stay believing what you want to hear. Just put me on ignore. That way you don't have to notice any of my posts about the subject.