Moses As Author Of The Torah/pentateuch

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Jaronm90

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In my reading of Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" I found his questioning of the authenticity of Moses as the author of the first 5 books of the Bible very convincing and, in my opinion, correct.

He begins by disclaiming that the only source he will use to refute the Bible is in fact the Bible. He then proceeds to show that the grammatical style and manner in which Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers are written can only be written either by someone recounting the events of Moses' life (in which case said author is anonymous and thus not credible), or Moses speaking of himself in the 3rd person (which says quite a bit about Moses' character if he boasts of his meekness (Numbers 12:3), "because to boast of meekness is the reverse of meekness, and is a lie in sentiment" -Paine). There are also numerous "the Lord said unto Moses", or "Moses said unto the Lord", or "Moses said unto the people", or "the people said unto Moses" which are all references to past events indicating either a different author or Moses speaking of himself in the 3rd person.

Next Paine uses the chronology of the Bible itself to give evidence that Moses couldn't be the author starting with Deuteronomy. After the author of Deut. tells of Moses going to the top of "Mount Nebo from the plains of Moab to the top of Pisgah, across from Jericho" (Deut. 34:1), he tells us that "Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is" (Deut. 34:5-6); but there is no antecedent to the pronoun "he" and we are not told who did bury him, unless the writer meant "he" (God) buried him, but then how does the writer know of it? and why should the readers believe him? for surely its not Moses writing of his own death and burial. And to say that no one know where the grave is to this day in this way gives away that there has been a distance of time between Moses' death and this passage and also that the writer was not present for the death and burial of Moses, let alone his life, further discrediting the authenticity and credibility of the events.

In Genesis the writer gives an account of Lot being taken prisoner in a battle between the four kings against five, and carried off; and that when the account of Lot came to Abraham he armed his household and marched to rescue Lot from his captors and that he pursued them unto Dan (verse 14). Paine points out that the place called Dan in the Bible was originally a town of the Gentiles called Laish, and when the tribe of Dan seized upon this town they changed its name to Dan, in commemoration of Dan, the father of the tribe and great grandson of Abraham. Judges 18:27-29 says: "[sup]27[/sup]And they took the things which Micah had made, and the priest which he had, and came unto Laish, unto a people that were at quiet and secure: and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and burnt the city with fire. [sup]28[/sup]And there was no deliverer, because it was far from Zidon, and they had no business with any man; and it was in the valley that lieth by Bethrehob. And they built a city, and dwelt therein. [sup]29[/sup]And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father, who was born unto Israel: howbeit the name of the city was Laish at the first." The account of the Danites taking possession of Laish and changing it to Dan is placed in the book of Judges immediately after the death of Samson, which is said to have happened in ca. 1120 BCE and the death of Moses to be ca. 1451 BCE; therefore, according to the historical arrangement, the place was not called Dan until roughly 331 years after the death of Moses. Being dead there is no way Moses could have been the author of Genesis, adhering to biblical chronology, if Abraham took up arms against a city with a name his great grandson's children established.

Also in Genesis 36 there is a genealogy given of the sons and descendants of Esau, who are called Edomites, and also a list by name of the kings of Edom, in enumerating of which it is said (verse 31) "And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel." This passage could only have been written after the first king began to reign over them, and consequently, that the book of Genesis, so far as having been written by Moses, could not have been written till the time of Saul, at least. But, the expression, any king, implies more than one king, at least two, and this carries it to the time of David, and taken in a general sense through all times of the Jewish monarchy. Had this verse been in any part of the Bible that professed to have been written after kings began to reign Israel, it would have been impossible not to have seen the application of it. It happens this is the case; the two books of Chronicles, which gave a history of all the kings of Israel, are professedly, as well as in fact, written after the Jewish monarchy began; and this verse, and all remaining verses of Genesis 36 after verse 34 are, almost word for word, in 1 Chronicles 1 beginning with verse 43. It is impossible for the list the kings of Israel to be used prior to the period after their reign, and it is certain, as anything can be proved from historical language, that this part of Genesis is taken from Chronicles, and that Genesis is not so old as Chronicles, and probably not so old as the book of Homer or AEsop's Fables; admitting Homer to have been, as the chronology indicated, contemporary with David or Solomon, and AEsop to have lived about the end of the Jewish monarchy.
And to the plea of prophesy, "the expressions are in the preter[ite] tense, and it would be downright idiotism to say that a man could prophesy in the preter[ite] tense." -Paine

Paine concludes his attack on the authenticity of Moses as the author of the Torah/Pentateuch by pointing out that he couldn't have known what the children of Israel ate or did after they came unto and crossed the borders of the land of Canaan (Exodus16:35) since he is said to have died in the wilderness. This account of manna eating extends into the time of Joshua, the successor of Moses. And finally in Deuteronomy 3:11 with the description of the giant Og, king of Bashan, and the way of proving the existence of this giant refers to his bed, saying, "is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon?", meaning that is is. But it could not be Moses that said this because Moses could know nothing about Rabbah, nor of what was in it. Rabbah was not a city belonging to this giant king, nor was it one of the cities that Moses took. The knowledge therefore that this bed was at Rabbah, and of the particulars of its dimensions, must be referred to the time when Rabbah was taken, and this was not till four hundred years after the death of Moses (see 2 Samuel 12:26).

"Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies." -Paine

[KJV for all biblical quotes]
 

HammerStone

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Tom Paine's work is a good one as far as politics go, but let's just say he wasn't as apt when it came to Christianity in particular, given that he did not believe. Unfortunately, Mr. Paine's social position did not afford him the luxury of a scribe, so I guess it can be forgiven that his hypothesis about Moses fails to ever address this consideration.

Of course, all of this puts aside the whole divine inspiration thing as well. ;)

A good bit of advice is that the Bible wasn't ever written in a vacuum.
 

Jaronm90

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Tom Paine's work is a good one as far as politics go, but let's just say he wasn't as apt when it came to Christianity in particular, given that he did not believe. Unfortunately, Mr. Paine's social position did not afford him the luxury of a scribe, so I guess it can be forgiven that his hypothesis about Moses fails to ever address this consideration.

Of course, all of this puts aside the whole divine inspiration thing as well. ;)

A good bit of advice is that the Bible wasn't ever written in a vacuum.

Hmmm... I'll assume since you in no way tried to use scripture to argue these points you either are in the process of researching to find justifiable answers for yourself which you will come back to me with; or you feel content to invoke 'divine inspiration' for inconsistencies as a way to placate your understanding of these bronze age texts.

If you wish to say that Paine 'wasn't apt' in Christianity since he was a deist instead of a theist then by all means, prove it. And if you would clarify what exactly was Paine's social position and why he would need a scribe. Throughout history scribes are used either by illiterates or people who feel themselves too busy or important to spend time writing (which are you implying applies Moses?).

I'm not sure what you mean by the Bible not being written in a vacuum, being scientifically literate I would have to agree with you since anything in a vacuum nullifies the definition of a vacuum, but I know you don't mean to be literal so if you would explain it would be greatly appreciated.
 

brionne

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I agree that he makes some good observations, however, I wonder if he's taking into consideration that when Moses wrote the 'law', he wrote in pictograph?

This is important, and it also explains why there are references that moses would not have written.

Basically, Moses was the writer of the 'Law' He is identified throughout the bible as the writer of the Mosaic law that was laid down in the wilderness. The form of writing he used was called 'proto canaanite' and its what was used as a writing system before Isreal had an alphabet. The alphabet wasnt introduced until 950BCE....thats 550 years after Moses wrote the law code.

Now think about what must happen when a language completely changes from Pictograph to Alphabet. Someone needs to fill in the gaps much like when an egyptologist translates hyroglyphx from pictures to writing.

Its fairly safe to say that the reason why there are references to events that would not have happend until after Moses death is simply that the scribes (people like Ezra) filled in those gaps in order for the alphabetic writing to take form. This in no way implies that the books attributed to moses were not written by Moses. The laws and accounts were written by him, but in order to convey such accounts accurately in an alphabetic writing required some additional input because you can't write pictures....you have to explain them.


So yes, Moses did not write the pentateuch in its current form. The scribes had to convey the writings of Moses from the original pictographs into the ancient hebrew alphabet. This meant it was necessary to add information that moses did not write, but it certainly does not mean that the writings of Moses are forged or fake....they were enhanced by necessity and the law code has been reproduced in such a way as to make it readable.
 

JarBreaker

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I agree that he makes some good observations, however, I wonder if he's taking into consideration that when Moses wrote the 'law', he wrote in pictograph?

This is important, and it also explains why there are references that moses would not have written.

Basically, Moses was the writer of the 'Law' He is identified throughout the bible as the writer of the Mosaic law that was laid down in the wilderness. The form of writing he used was called 'proto canaanite' and its what was used as a writing system before Isreal had an alphabet. The alphabet wasnt introduced until 950BCE....thats 550 years after Moses wrote the law code.

Now think about what must happen when a language completely changes from Pictograph to Alphabet. Someone needs to fill in the gaps much like when an egyptologist translates hyroglyphx from pictures to writing.

Its fairly safe to say that the reason why there are references to events that would not have happend until after Moses death is simply that the scribes (people like Ezra) filled in those gaps in order for the alphabetic writing to take form. This in no way implies that the books attributed to moses were not written by Moses. The laws and accounts were written by him, but in order to convey such accounts accurately in an alphabetic writing required some additional input because you can't write pictures....you have to explain them.


So yes, Moses did not write the pentateuch in its current form. The scribes had to convey the writings of Moses from the original pictographs into the ancient hebrew alphabet. This meant it was necessary to add information that moses did not write, but it certainly does not mean that the writings of Moses are forged or fake....they were enhanced by necessity and the law code has been reproduced in such a way as to make it readable.


Paleo Hebrew has all the letters of modern Hebrew ... each form was also representing an idea, letters "modified" the idea in relation to the other letters in a word.

Saying pictographs almost takes away from it still being a written language.

before Isreal had an alphabet.


No, the word alphabet comes from Alef and Bet ... the 1st two letters of the ancient and original Hebrew 22 letters.
 

brionne

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Paleo Hebrew has all the letters of modern Hebrew ... each form was also representing an idea, letters "modified" the idea in relation to the other letters in a word.

Saying pictographs almost takes away from it still being a written language.

No, the word alphabet comes from Alef and Bet ... the 1st two letters of the ancient and original Hebrew 22 letters.

Ancient hebrew characters appeared from 950bce (10th century) onward....before this time they were similar to the egyptions who wrote in hyroglyphics....and that would make sense considering Moses was educated and grew up in egypt. I did state above that the pictograhs were used in the 15th century bce which is still 500 years before the ancient hebrews changed to a script.

Just a clarification here, the word 'alphabet' comes from the ancient greeks, not the hebrews. It was first seen in the latin language which is a spinoff from the ancient greek.

The 'aleph' (Gr. alpha) in hebrew was originally a 'picture' representing an 'ox/bull' Its picture was a face of a bull with two horns which also 'signified' strength. That picture was changed into a similar looking character which became the sound 'uh' in ancient hebrew. It was the same with 'bayt' (Gr. beta) It was originally drawn as a square and represented a 'house'

the original aleph
ancient-aleph.gif


and here is an example of the pictographs as they were originally written on the right, and on the left column you'll see how they changed to the ancient hebrew paleo writing.
bobishmael.jpg



I stand by what i've stated about Moses writing....it was most certainly written in pictograph.
 

Paul

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Pegg, an interesting side note, did you know that the same paleo hebrew writing can be found in caves in southern USA?
 

brionne

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Pegg, an interesting side note, did you know that the same paleo hebrew writing can be found in caves in southern USA?

no, i didnt know that. Its not too surprising though considering we are all from the same stock. We see similarities in many languages right around the world and i guess this has happened partly thru migration.
 

Adstar

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Well the question must be asked:

Where in the Bible does it state that Moses was the author of the first 5 books of the Bible?

And if there is no place in the bible that states that Moses was the author of the first 5 books of the Bible where did this teaching come from?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

brionne

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Well the question must be asked:

Where in the Bible does it state that Moses was the author of the first 5 books of the Bible?

And if there is no place in the bible that states that Moses was the author of the first 5 books of the Bible where did this teaching come from?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

There is no single text saying that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch. Its really a jewish tradition that Moses wrote the first 5 books. The reason being that those first 5 books (pentateuch) was based primarily on the 'laws' that Moses was instructed to write down. Thats why you'll see references to 'the book of the law of moses' Joshua 1:7-8 2Kings 22:8 Deut 31:24 2 Chronicles 34:14

Its highly possible that the original writing of moses existed in isreal for quite some time because 2Chronicles 34:14 specifically says the scroll they had found hidden in the temple was the one 'written by the hand of Moses' which implies that it was the law that he himself had penned.

Its well and trully lost now, but it certainly did exist and this is why even Jesus could confidently say that the scrolls he was reading from were still the 'law of Moses' and he quoted from them regularly such as at Matthew 4:2 where he quotes from Deut 4:3 and we see him directly mention Moses as the writer in Mark 12:26 & John 7:19

sorry, the scripture i put is wrong in the last paragraph...


it should be John 6:32,33,34,35 where Jesus was quotiing from Deut 8:3
 

JarBreaker

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1560s (implied in alphabetical), from L.L. alphabetum (Tertullian), from Gk. alphabetos, from alpha + beta, the first two letters of it, from Heb.-Phoen. aleph, pausal form of eleph "ox" + beth, lit. "house;" the letters so called because their shapes resembled or represented those objects. The Greeks added -a to the end of many Heb.-Phoenician letter names because Gk. words cannot end in most consonants. Alphabet soup first attested 1907.


Why would greek be adding the "a" to alef and bet if the greek letters came first ?

Digging into the pictograph thing, thank you.
 

brionne

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1560s (implied in alphabetical), from L.L. alphabetum (Tertullian), from Gk. alphabetos, from alpha + beta, the first two letters of it, from Heb.-Phoen. aleph, pausal form of eleph "ox" + beth, lit. "house;" the letters so called because their shapes resembled or represented those objects. The Greeks added -a to the end of many Heb.-Phoenician letter names because Gk. words cannot end in most consonants. Alphabet soup first attested 1907.


Why would greek be adding the "a" to alef and bet if the greek letters came first ?

Digging into the pictograph thing, thank you.

The Greek and hebrew alphabet are similar because the greeks adopted the 8th century bce hebrew alphabet and modified it in such a way to include vowels sounds (a,e,i,o,u) But as i mentioned earlier, the hebrews didnt have an alphabet until the 9th century bce ...before that time they used pictographs.

remember we have to go back to the 15th century bce to get to the first hebrew writings and back then there was no alphabet.
 

Adstar

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There is no single text saying that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch. Its really a jewish tradition that Moses wrote the first 5 books.

It's always a danger with traditions. The longer people hold them the more they become gospel truth in their minds. It's like a false foundation has been placed at the base of someone’s faith. Fill up people will enough traditions and eventually their faith will become open to undermining.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

brionne

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It's always a danger with traditions. The longer people hold them the more they become gospel truth in their minds. It's like a false foundation has been placed at the base of someone’s faith. Fill up people will enough traditions and eventually their faith will become open to undermining.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

i agree traditions not rooted in scripture are dangerous. But this particular tradition is based on scripture in the fact that the pentateuch is a collection of writings based on Moses writings....both copied from and embellished on.

And lets face it, even Jesus acknowledged that the pentateuch is the 'law of moses' so its not likely that he could have been misled by a false tradition.
 

Adstar

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i agree traditions not rooted in scripture are dangerous. But this particular tradition is based on scripture in the fact that the pentateuch is a collection of writings based on Moses writings....both copied from and embellished on.

And lets face it, even Jesus acknowledged that the Pentateuch is the 'law of moses' so its not likely that he could have been misled by a false tradition.

If one believes that all scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore God given, then the actual hand or hands that put ink to paper in these books is irrelevant. And as you rightly point out Jesus declared them to be the "Law of Moses", So that is the final stamp of approval.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 

brionne

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If one believes that all scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore God given, then the actual hand or hands that put ink to paper in these books is irrelevant. And as you rightly point out Jesus declared them to be the "Law of Moses", So that is the final stamp of approval.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Amen to that! :)
 

Pharmboy

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Something that might be worth looking into for further research for some who are interested would be source criticism. Though not originally espoused by Julius Wellhausen (considered among the first to have based his lifes work on it) it literally turned Biblical scholarship on its head. Wellhausen was a fierce anti-semite so much of his work is tainted with that bias however current modern scholars are well aware of the bias, making for cautious forging ahead, but the foundation of his work remains in tact. We know very well from the New Testament that the Bible is not a single source document but a compendium really of different works by different people at different times. This holds no less true for the Old Testament. Mosaic authorship of some of the Pentateuch is certain but it appears to have undergone a great deal of revision and redaction at various times, most prominently during two periods: the reforms of Josiah and the Babylonian captivity. However there is a lot of debate about the source documents (which are now entirely lost) that were used. You will find sources mentioned for J (Yahweh), D (Deuteronomic) and P (priestly), among others which seem to provide a central perspective each different from the others. One protective of Israeli (Northern Kingdom) custom, the other protective of Judahite custom, another favorable toward Levitical, and yet another favorable toward common people. The debate over these issues rages on and scholarship in ancient Near Eastern covenants (Hittite, Egyptian, Canaanite and Babylonian) applied to Covenant Theology has stepped in to answer some of the more serious issues. At least in my opinion. But that is perhaps for another topic.

We should be careful not to place the Bible where it does not belong, resting our hope in something should be inside of us rather than on a coffee table. The Bible testifies that the word of God is living and is active in the life of a believer. Anyone have any idea how Abraham became the father of the faithful when he did not have a Bible sitting on his shelf? The Bible is a tool, and it testifies of our lack rather than our perseverance and fortitude, to our shame.