The Basis of Salvation

BreadOfLife said:

A witness sees and hears. A witness is not a paperweight.
Besides, there is precedent for "dead" saints (Moses & Elijah) being alive and aware at a little Biblical incident known as the Transfiguration (Luke 9:28-36).

And, as I stated earlier - Rev. 5:8 shows those in heaven interceding on our behalf by taking our prayers to God.
Anything else?

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Anything else?...are you kidding me....Where is your response to Heb 12:1? Nothing to say then...

What the heck are you raving about again. Did you just read what I posted. STOP jerking me around and stick ONLY to my post and stop diverting away from the subject at hand, as one of your typical tactics when you are on the run and hide mode.

We are talking about Heb 12:1 at this time. That was my response to you. Have the decency and maturity to respond to it first. Discuss your Rev verse afterwards. And I will set you straight on that one as well, later. You deliberately want to confuse...

I expect you will NOT answer my post at all and rave about something else as usual. People can see how you are making a fool of yourself..if that matters any way at this juncture....oh well.

see post #179 to refresh your memory..


APAK

Behold said:

Sure, i can expound the verse for you.
Pay attention.

you missed the context, again.

Here is the context... "i will show YOU my faith"......"by my works".

So, do you see? James is saying that he will prove he is in the faith, by showing Fruit......
But to whom?
See, this is where you missed it, son.
James says...>"i'll show YOU my works".

= You, = people.

NOT God. James is saying that he will show the fruit of his faith, before OTHER PEOPLE.

Got that?
See, heretics teach this as....>"if i show my works to God, then im still saved".
But James teaches that he will provide proof of his living faith before other PEOPLE.

"I'll show YOU, my works".

Heretics teach this verse like this...>"if you have dead faith, you have dead salvation, as you have lost your salvation".
That's the heretics version of James's verse.
Thats your version.
Thats the cult of Mary's version, son.

However...The context is.....>"by their fruit you shall know THEM"..
Who is them? Other people, other believers.
James says "i'll show YOU my faith = by my works"..

Now once again.
You are deceived.
You have been led into the darkness by the cult of MARY.
Wake up !!

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WRONG.
James is defining what REAL faith is.

He is explaining that works aren’t simply an “after-effect” of faith – but an essential component of it. THIS is why he differentiates “Belief” from “Faith – even though YOU can’t.

Funny how you have an opinion on James 2:19 – but you run like a chicken in a storm when I destroy your false, man-made abomination of “OSAS” with the truth of Scripture . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek word for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential and relational knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Behold said:

Real Faith is what causes someone (Through Christ's Blood Atonement) and by the Holy Spirit= to be born again.
Real faith is completed by Jesus, ("the author and FINISHER of our Faith"). Real Faith accepted by God, and through real faith, God deliever's to the born again, the eternal justification of every person who by faith "believed in/on Christ" and IS born again.
It happens only once.


Your faith, is that the water that you were taught is "baptismal regeneration". is a lie of the Devil.

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Yup – HE completes our faith.

That’s why HE prepared the works that are a necessary component of our faith FOR us in ADVANCE (Eph. 2:1) - that we can't take credit for. As the Holy Spirit assurs us through James’s pen – you CAN’T have faith without works.
Leave EITHER one out – and you have nothing.

It’s ALL a perfect plan that fits together perfectly like a puzzle.
Time to get a clue . . .

Behold said:

You can have faith without works.

Every born again person has NO works, at the time they are born again.
You didnt know this?
Now you do.
Need more, ??
Just ask the dying Thief on the Cross.
Where are his works, son?
Where is his "baptismal regeneration", Mary worshiper??


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Thank you for sharing that beautiful image of the Mother of God.

You are correct. One can have faith without works; like the thief on the cross. But he didn't have time to do the works. He died pretty quickly after professing his faith. I read on the internet that he died of Covid 19!!

HOWEVER, if one has time to do the works Scripture makes it clear we are to do those works (feeding the hungry, helping the poor, etc.) because if we don't our faith, without our works, is dead!

Why am I preaching to you. How about if James sets you straight: Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it. In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless.

Bible Study Mary

I suspect @BreadOfLife will have more to add to this....

Behold said:

You can have faith without works.

Every born again person has NO works, at the time they are born again.
You didnt know this?
Now you do.
Need more, ??
Just ask the dying Thief on the Cross.
Where are his works, son?
Where is his "baptismal regeneration", Mary worshiper??

So thats all the born again, (for 2000 yrs) with no works when they are saved, and the dying Thief on the Cross with no water baptism (there goes your salvation)....and he had no works.
See, he was too busy being nailed to a cross to have any "works".

Now, run to your cult of mary handbook, or go online to your cult of mary site, and see if you can get some help to try to contradict what you've been shown, and then come back and paste someone else's work...(again).

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So, you’re STILL having a hard time with the Biblical concept that Faith without works is not simply an “inactive” faith as YOU would try to have us believe.

The Word of God tells us that it is NON-EXISTENT (Dead - James 2:26). You’ve perverted God’s word by minimizing what true faith actually is.

What YOU try to pass off as “faith” makes you no better off than the demons (James 2:19) . . .

Well, there a sight lull in the postings so it is time for a short rant of sorts that I hope does not sound too redundant and confusing. It is on current topic, of this OP and thread - the basis of salvation.

True works of obedience to Christ are derived from a heart of saving faith given through the grace of God. When one is first truly saved, this given newborn faith begins to exercise itself via works of true obedience. It may seem 'inactive' initially, activity is virtually not registered. Although as a newborn, it soon begins to move with purpose and direction if given the opportunity by God. These works can be subtle or grand, invisible or visible, or both.

False works of disobedience on the other hand are derived from the carnal mind and heart that lacks true salvation and true faith from God.

Saving faith spontaneously spawns or seeks out activity and animation via works, actions as spiritual fruits. These works can be mere thoughts, feelings, works of the mind, spiritual thoughts and prayer, or physical activities. These works can be directed to no one except to self and the mind, to God and Christ, to one person or to many.

False carnal faith spawns non-spontaneous and calculated carnal works that are dirty rags in the sight of God. It is sin. These works are to satisfy and serve the selfish soul. They usually are works designed to grandstand and boast about..

James writes to people that understand or know about salvation, and many who are newly, and truly saved. He knows that saving faith in the heart always drives works or deeds 'out' that pleases God. There can be no other way if faith is true. It must be tested and proven in a spiritual nature. These works serve God and his Son, and are not self-serving-generated works in the least.

Paul speaks of salvation via grace through faith only as a gift of God.

Both James and Paul preach messages that seem different and even conflicting to the unbeliever, although they compliment each other; there is no confusion to a true believer.

Salvation is by grace through faith only, and this faith is revealed as works derived from the heart of the spiritual and saved man and not from carnality, with forced or selfish works that mocks true salvation given by God. It is only given to true believers. Those that practice a false and counterfeit form of salvation with its false faith and selfish works are the chaff that will eventually be burned up.

False teachers and members of religious cults believe without constant visible or active public works or deeds in one's life, their faith is in jeopardy of dying off. You see they must do this. They do not completely trust God for it or his word, so they are in a constant cycle and battle to keeping doing 'good' works in the hope to score an A on the salvation works exam in this life time and thereby generate an acceptable faith. Unfortunately, they only waste their time and their hope is in vain. They lack true faith and therefore produce false fruit or works. And these works conversely can never indicate a faith that truly saves.

Spiritual works of the heart ALWAYS follow true saving faith given as a gift from God, as the initial saving condition. And this faith grows with continual sanctification and cooperation with the Spirit.

Blessings,

APAK

Behold said:

Salvation is not of works.
Its of the Cross.
God gives the new birth to those who hear the Gospel, and BELIEVE. = "Justification by faith"
The New Birth is the only proof of Salvation.

The "works" that your cult of mary obsesses on, = just like any other Grace rejecting heretical group will try to substitute for the Blood Atonement, is : Galatians 1:8.
The Cult of mary is : Galatians 1:8
"baptismal regeneration" (cult of mary substitution for the Grace of God) is : Galatians 1:8
What you are explaining as your gospel of self saving, is : Galatians 1:8

Here is your cult.
Take a good long look.
You've given your life for this lie.
I tried to help you.

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I’ll dumb it down for you like I did for one of your equally-ignorant minions on another thread . . .

Eph. 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

That pretty much says it in a nutshell.

Now – to that, add James’s definition of what “Faith” actually is (James 2:14-26) – and you can FULLY understand. To YOU, faith is just “believing”. However, to the Holy Spirit, who spoke THROUGH James, says that faith is NOT simply “believing”, because even the DEMONS do that much (James 2:19).

No – he illustrates that without works – faith is DEAD. Not “asleep”, but non-existent. These “works” are the very ones that God prepared for us in advance to do (Eph. 2:10) - so nobody is taking “credit” for them because we can’t.

It’s ALL so simple but you anti-Catholics pervert it and LIE about what Catholics teach – and then guys like me have to come and publicly expose you . . .

Behold said:

How can you possibly "dumb down" the idea of worshiping a plastic mary, twisting beads, and pretending that she is the "queen of Heaven"?
This lie is already dumbed down to the Maxx.
Here is the thing about your belief system, breadoflife. You can't fix stupid.
But i have tired to help you.

Here is your Goddess. (Cult of Mary)

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Sooooo, you can’t stick to the topic of the discussion.
Gee – what a surprise . . .

You’re responding to a conversation about salvation and OSAS with an asinine post about “plastic Marys”.

If you can’t address the fact that I’ve annihilated the entire OSAS argument – just admit it and let somebody take a swing at it who is more Scripturally adept. Every desperate post from you with a photo of a Mary statue is yet another admission that you have NO defense for your false, man-made invention.

I’ve never seen a gaggle of anti-Catholics RUN from a challenge so readily as you all have from this airtight anti-OSAS argument . . .

Behold said:

I stopped having a discussion with you when i realized that you have issues.
The bible also advises me to realize that if i answer a fool according to their foolishness, then i'll be perceived as the same.
So, you and i are not having a discussion.
You are just continuing to rant as all hateful religious cult of mary fanatics will behave.
you post 30 verse that you can't understand and say...."gotcha".
Well you got nothing, is what you got. Its all in your head.

Like i told you.
I tried to help you.
You were not aware that the C-Church is the cult of mary.
You now know it, and you do not care, because you are consumed by deception that they have caused you to wear.
I feel sorry for you. As you are not able to think outside the box of Mary or the box of cookies or the box of "i hate osas".
You have been to useful , because its by you continuing to rant your hate of "protestant", and proclaim your love of Mary that so many readers of my Threads have seen what ive tried to help you see.
So, in that regard you have been useful.

Most of the readers here have never understood that your cult is the "CULT OF MARY".
They didn't realize this, but thanks to my Threads, and your continuing to pursue them with such foul energy, you have helped me advise them.

A smart catholic would one day ask themselves......"if Jesus is the Savior, why is my cult so obsessed with MARY MARY MARY MARY".

Like i said...>" a smart one".

See, im not in a box. Im not a denomination. I dont follow a deceiver in a religious theatrical costume who sits on a throne when he greets his idolators.
That is you, his fanatic.
You are the idolator.

You believe that THIS is of God.... and its not.

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Another impotent excuse from another angry little anti-Catholic.

You couldn’t answer my Scriptural destruction of your man-made OSAS fallacy from the very first time I presented it to you. Now you use Proverbs 26:4-5 as an excuse not to give a reasoned Scriptural response – even though you are commanded to do so in Scripture (1 Pet. 3:15).

I want to publicly thank you for doing a MUCH better job at exposing your Calvinist nonsense than I EVER could have by your little exhibition of “Scriptural dodgeball” . . .

PS – STILL waiting for a response to the following:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek word for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential and relational knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

Behold said:

You misquoted yourself..
Let me help you....>"anti catholic cult of mary".
Thats me.
Be sure you remember that, next time.

And like i told you.
I tried to help you.
Ive shown you your cult of mary.
I'll show you again.
Its devilish.
Its satanic.
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Thanks again for dodging the issue.

Face it - I've destroyed your Calvinist fairy tale of OSAS - and you have no rebuttal.
Don't feel bad, though. I wrote this treatise for a local debate with a group of Calvinists - ahd they were as dumbfounded as YOU . . .

Thanks also for the stunning images of Mary.
I had forgotten how beautiful some of these works are.

Behold said:

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Salvation : is not based on how you live or behave AFTER you are saved/born again.

Salvation : is wholly and only and completely based on what Jesus accomplished for you on the Cross before you were born.

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Hi
Please help me understand what you said? What about all the verses that indicate our free will and our choosing to remain faithful to Jesus? Mt 24:13 Jn 15:1-5 and so many more?
Thanks