Mosaic Law For Christians

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Follower

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when you say 'all the law' are you refering to the 600 Law's Moses laid down that is called the 'Mosaic Law' ?

If thats the law you are talking about then can you list the laws that you continue to apply?

The non-ceremonial laws. Do not murder. But, feel free to mix your fabrics.

If you keep reading thru Romans you come to Romans 8:2,3,4,5,6,7,8 Romans 6:14

the context of what Paul is refering to Law appears to be the 'law of Gods spirit' which is opposed to the 'law of the flesh'

He isnt talking about the mosaic law code at all if you look at the context.

Romans 3 looks like he's talking about he Mosaic Law. The Spirit isn't mentioned in the chapter. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Oh great, im not misreading galatians and romans. I also conclude that it is refering to the 'law of the spirit' as opposed to the mosaic law code.

What's "the law of the spirit"?
 

brionne

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What's "the law of the spirit"?

the law of the spirit revolves around the Holy Spirit and its fruits. Jesus was annointed with holy spirit and his life course was a perfect reflection of that spirit. Jesus told people to come to him and he would refresh them with something new at Matthew 11:28-30 ....the new thing that he would give them was freedom from the constraints of the mosaic law as was prophesied by Jeremiah 31:31-34 . James refered to this new law as 'the law of freedom' James 1:25

We know that the Mosaic Law was perfect and that its purpose was to teach us that we are sinful. It condemned the human race because no one could live up to its perfect standards and it showed us our sinful nature. Galatians 3:19
Yet the law of Christ set people free from that condemnation because it was a law based on love. If we displayed love in the way Jesus did, then we would be living by the fruits of the holy spirit, against which, there is no law because God is love. This is why the law of the Christ is called the 'law of a free people'

We are set free from the condemnation of the mosaic law. Jesus never wrote down any laws because he 'lived' it in order to show us the law in action. And because he was living by the law of Love (Gods Spirit) he needed no other law. Peter said he left a model for us to follow. By imitating Jesus life course, we are in fact living by the 'law of the spirit' 1 Peter 2:21
If we are living by Gods spirit we will be motivated to be self sacrificing like Jesus, we will be moved to do things for others to show generosity, hospitality, and love because that is the way Jesus conducted himself.

And this is why its the law of freedom....against Love there is no law. Galatians 5:22
 

fivesense

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Jews (represented by Ishmael) didn't persecutes Christians (represented by Isaac) by trying to make us follow the law. Jews persecuted Christians by trying to kill them.
Of course, Paul is making the case that we are free. But, this freedom comes from Jesus paying our penalty. We can use this freedom to sin, or not. We can break the law because the penalty has been paid, not because the law has been voided. However, if we chose to indulge in breaking the law, then we are not following the Spirit which is contrary to the nature of a Christian.
The context of Gal 5:18 is that if we indulge in breaking the law, then we are not being led by the Spirit.
.The context: 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.

You break the law, you are sinning. The new way is following the Spirit to avoid breaking the law.

I'm gonna nudge you a bit Follower, and see if I can get an honest and humble response from you.

Where does it say, Freedom comes from Jesus paying our penalty?

Where does it say, We were controlled by the sinful nature?

Where does it say we are to "avoid breaking the law?

I do not mind that you challenge me for misrepresenting Scripture, though the Spirit of truth is in what I am saying. But it would please me to know that you are aware that your usage of unscriptural words and phrases such as paying for our penalty, which He did not do, and sinful nature, which is not found in the Writings, are not any less a misdeed than what you claim for me. Please consider this.

The premise you stand upon, that the Nations are somehow connected to the Oracles and the Legislation apportioned to Israel is false. All of your reasonings and interpretations will not suffer to stand, since they are all based on a falsehood, that being we were given the Law and the Ordinances and the Covenant. We were not included in such things and those belong to Israel alone.

Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law,
and the service [of God], and the promises; Ro 9:4

That at that time ye (the nations)were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants
of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world Eph 2:12

' This is he(Christ) who was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the messenger who is speaking to him in the mount Sinai,
and with our fathers who did receive the living oracles to give to us ;Ac 7:38

. What, then, is the superiority of the Jew? or what the profit of the circumcision?
much in every way; for first, indeed, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God; Ro 3:1-2

I do not see God leaving you any room to declare that we are under the law in any circumstance, unless of course you happen to be Jewish, It is Jewish, will always be Jewish and never was for any other nation, They alone were chosen to be God's representatives, and no one else had any kind of relationship with God outside of them.

Ps 147:19 Declaring His words to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel.

Ps 147:20 He hath not done so to any nation, As to judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye Jah!

fivesense


 

JarBreaker

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Apr 6, 2010
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Where does it say we are to "avoid breaking the law?

Go and sin no more ?

I do not see God leaving you any room to declare that we are under the law in any circumstance, unless of course you happen to be Jewish, It is Jewish, will always be Jewish and never was for any other nation, They alone were chosen to be God's representatives, and no one else had any kind of relationship with God outside of them.

ISRAEL had the relationship ... 2 tribes (judah/benjamin) were/are Jews ... ONLY TWO

THE JEWS were chosen to KEEP HERITAGE ALIVE ... who else do you see over there, who else was brought back into the land ?

but then again, why bother to argue the lost 10 tribes since noone here can see it ... OH WAIT, isnt there a lost 10 tribes section on this board ? .... hey, who was it that put that there ... the SAME PERSON who put up a study IN FAVOR of the law never being abolished ?

Let me ask you people something

Hammerstone runs this site

Hammerstone speaks against things here and you come in and do your best to shoot it down

WHY do people even want to be here when the owner of this site puts up a study supporting things you so obviously do not ?!?

People should come here and want to be here because they want to LEARN ... if the people running this board TEACH ONE THING, and you come in and DO NOT BELIEVE IT, and TEACH AGAINST IT .... WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY are you even here ?
 

fivesense

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Go and sin no more ?
ISRAEL had the relationship ... 2 tribes (judah/benjamin) were/are Jews ... ONLY TWO
THE JEWS were chosen to KEEP HERITAGE ALIVE ... who else do you see over there, who else was brought back into the land ?
but then again, why bother to argue the lost 10 tribes since noone here can see it ... OH WAIT, isnt there a lost 10 tribes section on this board ? .... hey, who was it that put that there ... the SAME PERSON who put up a study IN FAVOR of the law never being abolished ?
Let me ask you people something
Hammerstone runs this site
Hammerstone speaks against things here and you come in and do your best to shoot it down
WHY do people even want to be here when the owner of this site puts up a study supporting things you so obviously do not ?!?
People should come here and want to be here because they want to LEARN ... if the people running this board TEACH ONE THING, and you come in and DO NOT BELIEVE IT, and TEACH AGAINST IT .... WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY are you even here ?


YLT Col 2:18 let no one beguile you of your prize, delighting in humble-mindedness and in worship of the messengers, intruding into the things he hath not seen, being vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh,

YLT Col 2:19 and not holding the head, from which all the body-through the joints and bands gathering supply, and being knit together-may increase with the increase of God.

I can appreciate your desire to uphold the "owner" of this site, and that is loyalty, at least it resembles such, but there is little advantage given to the saints to learn of the Christ of God, if censure and browbeating is the method used to "get your way". It is the power of God by Holy Spirit that transforms our minds, not the dogmatic stance of restless and unlearned men. I do not believe Hammerstone to be such a one. He has exhibited only fairness and broad-heartedness with respect to the ecclesia. He will receive an appropriate award for his faith.

fivesense


 

logabe

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Aug 28, 2008
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The non-ceremonial laws. Do not murder. But, feel free to mix your fabrics.



Romans 3 looks like he's talking about he Mosaic Law. The Spirit isn't mentioned in the chapter. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.



What's "the law of the spirit"?



The law of Jubilee is the legal foundation of grace. While some disparage
the law of God, thinking it is somehow in opposition to love or grace, the
law actually establishes grace. There is a law of faith (Rom. 3:27), and by
it "we establish the law" (Rom. 3:31).

There is also a "law of the spirit of life in Christ" that overcomes the "law
of sin and death" (Rom. 8:2). While many today think of law as evil, unjust,
fleshly, and unspiritual, Paul says that the law of God is "holy, and just,
and good" (Rom. 7:12) and even "spiritual" (Rom. 7:14). Paul says that his
flesh serves the law of sin, but his mind serves the law of God (Rom. 7:25).
Paul does not grumble about having to obey the law of God. He says "I
delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Rom. 7:22), which is his
spirit. I often wonder how it is that Christians do not always share Paul's
sentiment.

Sinners who come before God's throne either receive grace (justification)
or suffer the judgment of the law. This simply means that the sinner must
know how to legally appeal his case before the throne (the bar of justice in
the divine court). Since we are all sinners worthy of judgment, that is what
we will receive unless we know the lawful way to obtain grace. Grace
means acquittal or forgiveness in spite of the crimes (sins) we have
committed.

When the charges are read to us in God's court, how will we plead our
case? Many Christians will tell the Judge, "Your Honor, there is no law
against those sins; don't you recall that you repealed those laws at the
Cross? 'Where no law is, there is no transgression' (Rom. 4:15). You
cannot judge me, because all laws were repealed, thus all things are
now lawful."

The Judge may answer you like this: "I told you that I came not to destroy
the law, but to fulfill it (Matt. 5:17). I told Paul that I did not make void the
law through faith (Rom. 3:31). I told John that sin is still the transgression
of the law (1 John 3:4). I have always told you that I would judge sin. Did
you really think you could continue in sin that grace may abound
(Rom. 6:1)? Never did I make sin lawful. I only changed the forms by
which men may obtain grace when they sin. Depart from me, ye workers
of iniquity (lawlessness)."

To obtain grace, a sinner must answer in a way such as this: "Your
Honor, I admit that I am a sinner, that I am guilty as charged of violating
your law.
I repent of my lawless attitude, thinking I could sin with immunity.
I confess that you are just in all your ways and may justly sentence me to
death (Rom. 6:23). However, Jesus already paid the full penalty for my
sins, and I have accepted His provision. The law is thus fully satisfied,
for my debt has been paid."


The Judge will answer: "Let the record show that this man's sins have
already been paid for in full. Therefore, this court extends grace to him
and releases him. He is no longer under the law, but under grace. Go
and sin no more."


If a criminal shows no remorse or repentance for his sins and thinks
that he somehow has a license to sin with immunity, God will not
extend grace to him. He is attempting to obtain grace in an unlawful
manner-by putting away the law. The Bible calls this "lawlessness"
(Greek anomia). God does not acquit the guilty by repealing His law;
He acquits by upholding the law and paying its full penalty Himself.
Never was the law upheld and respected more than when Jesus
died on the Cross to pay the full penalty that it had prescribed for our
sins.


Logabe
 

WhiteKnuckle

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Let's see here,,,,,,This is how I understand it. (Sorry for the lack of scriptural support, I'll provide them uppon request)

It seems to me that we are trying to figure out exactly what is sin and what is not. It also seems to me that we're wanting to understand exactly what was fullfilled. Not a bad thing to think about.

We all know that by being in Christ, we also have His Spirit. Our knowledge of good and evil are lead by the Spirit of the Mighty God Himself.

We know in our heart what to do and what not to do because the Spirit of God tells us and teaches us and nurtures us. We all also know that there are those out there without the Lord and are left to their own devices and understandings of how things are and right and wrong.
How many times have you heard dudes at work talking and say,, "There's nothing wrong with looking at porn. You're not cheating" or said, "eye for an eye. If someone steals from me I'm punching them in the face" ??
These people truely believe this. Absolutely whole heartedly don't see or feel anything wrong with living that way.
Many of us felt the same way before we were saved. I'm certain of it.

If you didn't have Jesus and could make your own rules,, what exactly would you do? How would you Honor God (if you had any desire to do so for any reason other than to avoid flame)?
How many times have you heard someone who was drunk try to explain "Well, God doesn't care what you do as long as you're a good person. I'm a good person. I just like to drink."?

Before God gave the Law, that's what man did. God revealed his existence to them and they wanted to know what he expected. So,,, He gave them written law. Do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that.
At that point they had a guide to show them what to do and what not to do. Very little explaination ast to why.
They didn't have the Spirit of God within themselves, they were men of God, but still weren't in God, as we are one with him through Jesus Christ. They had the promise of what we have now.
They needed to be riminded to rest, and let others rest, to give to help the church and pay the priests, to not worship other Gods, to know that adultery is sin, to not swear oaths in Gods name and break them, etc, etc,,,,,

Now, the Lord has changed our hearts,, and minds. We automatically know what to do and not to do,,, because the Lord is in us and is physically chainging us. Unlike them.

The law had requirements and consequences for breaking them. Sacrifice "fullfilled" the law at the time, but they had to be repeated as sin kept repeating. Jesus was the final sacrifice.
Now, the law was not abolished at all. If the law was abolished, then Jesus death would be null of it's meaning and importance, and we wouldn't have redemption. The Law remains intact and in effect completely. God said that covenant would be eternal.
Jesus revealed the promised new covenant. That's what we're under now.

The Law was referred to as a teacher. What do we suppose that Paul meant when he said no man need teach you?
Simply put, We don't need a law to make us charitable, or merciful, or duitifull. There are still morals and those are the "law" which isn't really law in any form. That's how we're supposed to live and how we can do those things naturally is through the Lord.
 

jiggyfly

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Jews (represented by Ishmael) didn't persecutes Christians (represented by Isaac) by trying to make us follow the law. Jews persecuted Christians by trying to kill them.

Of course, Paul is making the case that we are free. But, this freedom comes from Jesus paying our penalty. We can use this freedom to sin, or not. We can break the law because the penalty has been paid, not because the law has been voided. However, if we chose to indulge in breaking the law, then we are not following the Spirit which is contrary to the nature of a Christian.



The context of Gal 5:18 is that if we indulge in breaking the law, then we are not being led by the Spirit.
.


The context: 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.

You break the law, you are sinning. The new way is following the Spirit to avoid breaking the law. The old way is directly avoiding breaking the law. This has the advantage of keeping the spirit of the law and not just the word (as the Pharisees).



That is true. But, the Holy Spirit does not lead us to break the law.

Nor Does HolySpirit relinquish His leading over to the law. I disagree with you, "the new way" is not avoiding to break the law, it is to grow in love.
smile.gif


I have HolySpirit to lead, teach and help me become a productive citizen in God's kingdom and I have Yeshua as my advocate (the Judge's Son) and the fairest, wisest and most compassionate Judge there is so why should I be worried about the law?
 

logabe

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it seems to me that Galatians 3:10 is saying that those who continue to "rely on works of law" are under a curse becaues the mosaic law states "cursed is the one who does not perform works of law"

The christians had been set free from that curse of law....yet some christians thought they should still be following the mosaic law. Paul was trying to show them that if they do that they will continue to be cursed
because thats what the mosiac law was....a curse.
Galatians 5:1, 4

Man trying to keep the Law within himself was the curse. In other
words, it's how the Law is applied to an individual. Is it by the flesh
or is it by the Spirit. Is it by human effort or by the Spirit of God.

In its broadest context, the law is the foundational revelation of the
mind of God that we currently have on record. It is the Word of God
as given to Moses. The Ten Commandments provide a moral
guideline that summarizes and categorizes the rest of the laws
and statutes.

In addition to the moral laws, we find certain penalties for sin (law
breaking) which are called "judgments." Normally, these take the
form of restitution payment to the victims of injustice, and the death
penalty for such sins as cannot be paid by restitution--such as
premeditated murder, kidnapping, bestiality, and rape of a married
woman.

There are also forms and rituals by which sinners (law breakers)
were to find justification and reconciliation with God. These
sacrifices were the Old Covenant method of justification, and they
served as types and shadows of a greater Sacrifice which was yet
to come in the Person of Jesus Christ. When He came, the old
forms became obsolete.

Finally, the law reveals the moral code by which God relates to
mankind and judges the people of all nations, taking into account
their level of knowledge. This gives the law a prophetic tone, for all
the types and shadows prophesy of something greater to come.
The Sacrifices all speak of Christ and His death on the cross, the
feast days prophesy of His first and second comings, and laws of
redemption and Jubilee speak of the process by which God judges
and saves mankind.

In the New Testament, while the forms of the law changed, as
spelled out in the book of Hebrews, the moral code remained the
same, for in the matter of morality and character, God changes not.
God had two ways of saving mankind. He could have put away the
law and legalized sin, which would have made it impossible to
prosecute sinners, simply because there was no law to make sin
sinful. But He chose instead to uphold the law and pay its full
penalty for the sin of the world, thus retaining the law as the
standard of righteousness and character--the ultimate goal of
what we will attain by faith in Him.


Logabe
 

fivesense

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In its broadest context, the law is the foundational revelation of the
mind of God that we currently have on record. It is the Word of God
as given to Moses. The Ten Commandments provide a moral
guideline that summarizes and categorizes the rest of the laws
and statutes.
Finally, the law reveals the moral code by which God relates to
mankind and judges the people of all nations, taking into account
their level of knowledge. This gives the law a prophetic tone, for all
the types and shadows prophesy of something greater to come.
The Sacrifices all speak of Christ and His death on the cross, the
feast days prophesy of His first and second comings, and laws of
redemption and Jubilee speak of the process by which God judges
and saves mankind.

In the New Testament, while the forms of the law changed, as
spelled out in the book of Hebrews, the moral code remained the
same, for in the matter of morality and character, God changes not.
God had two ways of saving mankind. He could have put away the
law and legalized sin, which would have made it impossible to
prosecute sinners, simply because there was no law to make sin
sinful. But He chose instead to uphold the law and pay its full
penalty for the sin of the world, thus retaining the law as the
standard of righteousness and character--the ultimate goal of
what we will attain by faith in Him.


Logabe
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Ro 5:20

The law turned sin into transgression. It incurred God's wrath and indignation. Before the Law it was offenses, not transgressions.

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Ro 5:13

But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by
the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Ro 7:13



It is not God's moral code for mankind. It was given to a people of His choosing, apart from the nations, in order to demonstrate the sinfulness of sin. Israel alone will be accountable for failure to keep it, for it was given to none other.

He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
He hath not dealt so with any nation: and [as for his] judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD. Ps 147:19-20

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and
the service [of God], and the promises; Ro 9:3-4

The Law has no place in our lives. It belongs to Israel alone. We are justified, declared not guilty, through grace and faith, beyond judgment, and enjoyers of an allotment with Christ in the heavens. It is a done deal and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

fivesense
 

logabe

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Aug 28, 2008
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Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Ro 5:20

The law turned sin into transgression. It incurred God's wrath and indignation. Before the Law it was offenses, not transgressions.

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Ro 5:13

But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by
the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Ro 7:13



It is not God's moral code for mankind. It was given to a people of His choosing, apart from the nations, in order to demonstrate the sinfulness of sin. Israel alone will be accountable for failure to keep it, for it was given to none other.

He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel.
He hath not dealt so with any nation: and [as for his] judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD. Ps 147:19-20

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and
the service [of God], and the promises; Ro 9:3-4

The Law has no place in our lives. It belongs to Israel alone.
We are justified, declared not guilty, through grace and faith, beyond judgment, and enjoyers of an allotment with Christ in the heavens. It is a done deal and nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.

fivesense


Fivesense...let me try to explain something that might help you
as pertaining to the Word (Law) of God.

First of all, there is a huge distinction between those who never
heard the name of Jesus and those who rejected Him. Those
who never heard the name of Jesus are most likely people who
never had access to the divine law (Scripture) and so were
ignorant of it. Of such people, Paul says in Romans 2,

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law [anomos] will
also perish without the Law [anomos], and all who have
sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.
13 For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but
the doers of the Law will be justified.


The law of God is impartial to "Jew or Greek" (vs. 10). Both parties
will be judged, but the standard of measure is different for those
who had no knowledge of the law. In Paul's context, the Jews will
be judged by the law; the Greeks will be judged "without the law"
(anomos). This Greek word anomos means "apart from the law."
The term is unique, appearing only in this verse. So Paul explains
the meaning in the next verses:

14 For when Gentiles [ethnos] who do not have the Law
do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having
the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their
hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their
thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will
judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


First, it is clear that these ethnos are presumed to be ignorant
of the divine law, "not having the Law." The Law was given at
Sinai, where only a small fraction of the earth's population had
opportunity to hear God's voice and receive this divine revelation.

Second, Paul makes it clear that the ethnos all had a prior
knowledge of God's law since the time of Adam. Every tribe and
nation had moral values, and even though these had often
become corrupted or distorted by carnal minds, nonetheless,
they all retained some measure of responsibility toward the
divine law. In fact, Paul says, the Law of God was "written on
their hearts," so they cannot be excused completely, nor can it
be said that they were totally ignorant of the divine laws revealed
at Sinai.

Third, Paul says that these ethnos "are a law to themselves."
What does that mean? How can men themselves BE a law?
To the extent that the law of God was written in their hearts,
they WERE the law. As believers, we should understand that
Jesus Christ was the Word (John 1:1), and that as the Word
(law) is written in our hearts, we are also becoming the Word
as part of His Body. That is, we eat the Word, and we are what
we eat.

So also is it with all men who retain some portion of revelation
regarding the moral character of God. While their moral systems
may have been corrupted by the carnal minds of men over the
centuries, most still have some degree of moral sense, along
with a conscience to guide them. And so God will judge them
according to their level of knowledge.

It is NOT the case that only Israel received the divine law, and
all others have no accountability toward it. The character of God
was revealed through Adam, and all mankind has a residual
knowledge of His law. The law was revealed in a greater way
through Moses (and put in writing), but because the law was
an expression of God's character and will, it is plain that God's
character did not suddenly change or come into existence with
Moses.

With much knowledge comes much responsibility. Luke 12:48
says, "And from everyone who has been given much shall much
be required." And so, the Judeans, whose rabbis studied the law
daily but misunderstood it and nullified it by their traditions, had
far more accountability than did the Greeks who knew little of the
divine law. Likewise, Christian leaders who have cast aside the
law also will be held more accountable than the unbelievers
who know little.

All will be held accountable by the law, but only to the extent that
they had opportunity to know the truth. God will judge all mankind
righteously.

The primary difference between the days of Moses and the time
after the Great White Throne is that in Moses' day all debtors
were mortal, but at the Great White Throne, mortality is replaced
by the second death, the spiritual death whereby men learn to
put to death the "old man" and begin to "die daily." Their new
masters will be responsible to teach them the love of God by
personal example.


Logabe
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
Fivesense... the Word (Law) of God.

First of all, there is a huge distinction between those who never
heard the name of Jesus and those who rejected Him. Those
who never heard the name of Jesus are most likely people who
never had access to the divine law (Scripture) and so were
ignorant of it. Of such people, Paul says in Romans 2,

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law [anomos] will
also perish without the Law [anomos], and all who have
sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.
13 For not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but
the doers of the Law will be justified.


(vs. 10). Both parties
will be judged, but the standard of measure is different for those
who had no knowledge of the law. In Paul's context, the Jews will
be judged by the law; the Greeks will be judged "without the law"
(anomos). This Greek word anomos means "apart from the law."
The term is unique, appearing only in this verse. So Paul explains
the meaning in the next verses:

14 For when Gentiles [ethnos] who do not have the Law
do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having
the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their
hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their

thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will
judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


First, it is clear that these ethnos are presumed to be ignorant
of the divine law,
"not having the Law." The Law was given at
Sinai,
where only a small fraction of the earth's population had
opportunity to hear God's voice and receive this divine revelation.

Second, Paul makes it clear that the ethnos all had a prior
knowledge of God's law since the time of Adam
. Every tribe and
nation had moral values, and even though these had often
become corrupted or distorted by carnal minds, nonetheless,
they all retained some measure of responsibility toward the
divine law.
In fact, Paul says, the Law of God was "written on
their hearts," so they cannot be excused completely, nor can it
be said that they were totally ignorant of the divine laws revealed
at Sinai.

Third, Paul says that these ethnos "are a law to themselves."
What does that mean? How can men themselves BE a law?
To the extent that the law of God was written in their hearts,
they WERE the law. As believers, we should understand that
Jesus Christ was the Word (John 1:1), and that as the Word
(law)
is written in our hearts, we are also becoming the Word
as part of His Body. That is, we eat the Word, and we are what
we eat.

So also is it with all men who retain some portion of revelation
regarding the moral character of God. While their moral systems
may have been corrupted by the carnal minds of men over the
centuries, most still have some degree of moral sense, along
with a conscience to guide them. And so God will judge them
according to their level of knowledge.

It is NOT the case that only Israel received the divine law, and
all others have no accountability toward it. The character of God
was revealed through Adam
, and all mankind has a residual
knowledge of His law. The law was revealed in a greater way
through Moses
(and put in writing), but because the law was
an expression of God's character and will
,
it is plain that God's
character did not suddenly change or come into existence with
Moses.

With much knowledge comes much responsibility. Luke 12:48
says, "And from everyone who has been given much shall much
be required." And so, the Judeans, whose rabbis studied the law
daily but misunderstood it and nullified it by their traditions, had
far more accountability than did the Greeks who knew little of the
divine law. Likewise, Christian leaders who have cast aside the
law also will be held more accountable than the unbelievers
who know little.

All will be held accountable by the law, but only to the extent that
they had opportunity to know the truth.
God will judge all mankind
righteously.

The primary difference between the days of Moses and the time
after the Great White Throne is that in Moses' day all debtors
were mortal, but at the Great White Throne, mortality is replaced
by the second death, the spiritual death whereby men learn to
put to death the "old man" and begin to "die daily." Their new
masters will be responsible to teach them the love of God by
personal example.


Logabe
Logabe, your ability to reason is astounding. It is definitely beyond average, and convoluted. There are many unscriptural words and phrases that you use that you feel would "help" me. I fail to see how the introduction of artificial and unscriptural words help anybody. If it is not revealed by God as so, why should I try to make it so?
-The Word of God is the Logos, not the law;
-The "divine law" is never mentioned in the bible as a line of demarcation between those in the know and those who are not,
-"The law of God is impartial to 'Jew or Greek'" is what you say, but the Scriptures never said that in Romans 2, it says they perish without the law. It pertains to God's just judgment, not the law.
-Paul never said the nations had a knowledge of the "divine law", something that does not exist in the Word.
-He does not make it clear that the law was "written on their hearts". The Originals say the action, or work of the law , not the law itself, and that the action was one of defending or accusing one another according to conscience, not any "divine law" that cannot be located anywhere in Scripture.
-The last statement you make is mind boggling to hear; "spiritual death? new masters? Where is this coming from?

Logabe, I solicit your responses, and genuinely look to them for aiding me, but if you must use words and phrases not found in the Holy Writings to explain yourself to me, you will leave me more confused than when I started. God uses the words He recorded for a reason. Let us not add or combine our thoughts with His, and expect the light of Holy Spirit to illuminate them as if they originated at the Source.
fivesense
 

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
880
47
28
66
Logabe, your ability to reason is astounding. It is definitely beyond average, and convoluted. There are many unscriptural words and phrases that you use that you feel would "help" me. I fail to see how the introduction of artificial and unscriptural words help anybody. If it is not revealed by God as so, why should I try to make it so?
-
The Word of God is the Logos, not the law;
-The "divine law" is never mentioned in the bible as a line of demarcation between those in the know and those who are not,
-"The law of God is impartial to 'Jew or Greek'" is what you say, but the Scriptures never said that in Romans 2, it says they perish without the law. It pertains to God's just judgment, not the law.
-Paul never said the nations had a knowledge of the "divine law", something that does not exist in the Word.
-He does not make it clear that the law was "written on their hearts". The Originals say the action, or work of the law , not the law itself, and that the action was one of defending or accusing one another according to conscience, not any "divine law" that cannot be located anywhere in Scripture.
-The last statement you make is mind boggling to hear; "spiritual death? new masters? Where is this coming from?

Logabe, I solicit your responses, and genuinely look to them for aiding me, but if you must use words and phrases not found in the Holy Writings to explain yourself to me, you will leave me more confused than when I started. God uses the words He recorded for a reason. Let us not add or combine our thoughts with His, and expect the light of Holy Spirit to illuminate them as if they originated at the Source.
fivesense


Fivesense...you have some really good questions and I will attempt
to answer some of them today. Let's break the Law down a little bit
from Paul's perspective. The Apostle Paul deals with the broad view
on the law, telling us in Rom. 3:19 and 20,

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to
those who are under the law, that every mouth may be
closed, and all the world may become accountable to God,
20 because by the works of the law no flesh will be justified
in His sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin."


Paul had just shown that "there is none righteous, not even one"
(vs. 10). Anyone who attaches his salvation upon his own
righteousness--that is, his ability to do what is right in the sight of
God--has a misplaced faith. His faith is in himself and his own
righteousness, not in Christ's righteousness. Paul says that all
have sinned, and that no man is righteous. In other words, all men
need some other method of achieving righteousness (salvation)
other than by their own self-discipline, learning, and ability.

In the course of this argument, he writes verses 19 and 20 above.
The law gives us a knowledge of sin. It identifies sin, because, as
1 John 3:4 says, "sin is lawlessness." But the law cannot give us
the ability to keep it. Only the Holy Spirit working in us can do that.
And so, Paul says, whatever the law says, it speaks to those who
are under the law.


To whom does the law speak? Which people does the law convict
of sin? "Every mouth" and "all the world." Here it is plainly said that
all the world is accountable to God because they are "under the law."
It is not just Israel, nor any other limited group of people. Paul goes
on to say in verse 22, "for there is no distinction" between Israel and
non-Israel when it comes to putting one's faith in Christ to get out
from "under the law."

So it is with us on the broader level. The whole world is "under the
law" because the law convicts them of sin. The whole world is
accountable to the law on some level, for "all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). The way to come "under grace"
is by faith in Jesus Christ, whose death on the cross pays the full
penalty for our sin. Faith applies His death as payment for our sin.
Once that debt is paid, we are not under the law, but under grace
(Rom. 6:14).

Does this mean we have the license to continue in sin that grace
may abound (Rom. 6:15)? Of course not. Just because the law no
longer condemns us does not give Christians a license to continue
sinning--that is, to continue violating the law. Just because we are
no longer under the law's penalty does not mean that the law has
no further use and purpose. In fact, those who continue in sin are
abusing grace, and their faith itself is called into question.

This problem was prevalent in Jeremiah's day, when he confronted
the people in Jer. 7:9, 10,

10 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear
falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal, and walk after other
gods that you have not known,
11 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is
called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all
these abominations'?"


Did you get that fivesense? I'm not making this up...I'm trying to
explain how God deals with us who breaks His Law (sin) and
thinks somehow God overlooks what we have done because
we are under Grace.

There are Christians also who think they have a license to sin,
and who then go to Church and say, "We have been delivered
by Jesus Christ to do all these abominations." Jeremiah says
that this makes the temple a "den of robbers." A robbers' den
is a safe-haven from the law, a hide-out, where they can be
lawless with immunity.

God's righteous standard was not put away. Only the means by
which we attain that righteous standard changed. Under the Old
Covenant, the people were told to achieve it by the power of their
own works and self-discipline. Under the New Covenant, we
achieve it through the three steps laid out in the feast days. We
get an imputed righteousness up front through Passover, then
go through obedience training in Pentecost, and finally are made
actually righteous in the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles.

It is not about doing away with all righteous standards, for God
is not satisfied to leave all men in their current condition and
simply label them "righteous." No, God will not be satisfied until
we all look like Jesus Christ.

Back in the Garden when Adam and Eve sinned, God could have
allowed them access to the tree of life after their sin. But the
mercy of God did not want them to be immortal sinners. What
could be worse than leaving men in their sinful condition for
eternity? So God drove them out of the Garden and set Cherubim
to guard the way of the tree of life. That was an act of merciful
judgment.

The same holds true under the New Covenant. God does not
intend to create immortal sinners today, any more than in the
Garden.

If you do a study of the New Testament word anomia, "lawlessness,"
you will be enlightened to find that such an attitude and practice is
nowhere condoned by any author. Jesus condemns it in Matt. 7:23,
saying to such people "depart from Me, you who practice anomia."
Paul exhorts us in Rom. 6:19 to cease from the lawless (anomia)
way of life that we practiced before coming to Christ. John says "sin
is anomia" and that those afflicted with this heart-attitude are "of the
devil" (1 John 2:8).

Paul took the Gospel beyond the borders of Judea and Judaism.
To him, the whole world was in need of a Savior because everyone
was accountable before the divine law. All had sinned, whether or
not they had even heard of the Ten Commandments. All were
condemned by the law impartially, and likewise, all were to be saved
through Christ impartially and in the same manner.

I was asked recently how God could judge the non-Israelite nations
for sin when they had not received the law. Read Psalm 19. The
heavens tell of the glory of God. Verse 4 says, "Their line has gone
out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world."
Everyone has some level of knowledge. Israel had MORE knowledge,
and this made them MORE accountable, and God certainly judges
according to one's level of knowledge, as Jesus tells us in Luke 12:
47, 48.

Hence, God judged the whole earth for its wickedness at the time of
Noah's flood. He judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their "sin" (Gen.
18:20). In Amos 1 and 2, God judged Damascus, Gaza, Edom, Ekron,
Philistia, Tyre, and Moab as well as Judah and Israel for their
"transgressions." Without a law to transgress, they would have had
no transgression for God to judge, for Paul says in Rom. 4:15 that
where there is no law, there is no transgression. God has always
held the nations accountable, or else His judgments would have
been unjust.

Hope I explained myself a little better.


Logabe
 

chrissy

New Member
Nov 26, 2008
72
1
0
33
Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day.

Nehemiah 1:5 And said, I beseech thee, O LORD God of heaven, the great and terrible God, that keepeth covenant and mercy for them that love him and observe his commandments:

Psalms 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.

Proverbs 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


The commandments shall be kept to the best of our ability. Nowhere have I seen that the commandments that God gave us were abolished. Look here in Revelation. "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." "here are they that keep the commandmentsof God, and the faith of Jesus."

Key points, commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. This debate could go on for hours and many foggy reasons as to why we don't keep God's commandments, but here is a post to make clear that The Word states we keep his commandments. We are given that choice, yes believing Jesus was the Son of God is wonderful, but not following God's commandments can make our lives soooooooooo much more difficult. Choose wisely and consider.
 
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fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
Fivesense...you have some really good questions and I will attempt
to answer some of them today. Let's break the Law down a little bit
from Paul's perspective. The Apostle Paul deals with the broad view
on the law, telling us in Rom. 3:19 and 20,
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to
those who are under the law, that every mouth may be
closed, and all the world may become accountable to God,
20 because by the works of the law no flesh will be justified
in His sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin."


Paul had just shown that "there is none righteous, not even one"
(vs. 10). Anyone who attaches his salvation upon his own
righteousness--that is, his ability to do what is right in the sight of
God--has a misplaced faith. His faith is in himself and his own
righteousness, not in Christ's righteousness. Paul says that all
have sinned, and that no man is righteous. In other words, all men
need some other method of achieving righteousness (salvation)
other than by their own self-discipline, learning, and ability.

In the course of this argument, he writes verses 19 and 20 above.
The law gives us a knowledge of sin. It identifies sin, because, as
1 John 3:4 says, "sin is lawlessness." But the law cannot give us
the ability to keep it. Only the Holy Spirit working in us can do that.
And so, Paul says, whatever the law says,
it speaks to those who
are under the law.


To whom does the law speak? Which people does the law convict
of sin? "Every mouth" and "all the world." Here it is plainly said that
all the world is accountable to God because they are "under the law."
It is not just Israel, nor any other limited group of people. Paul goes
on to say in verse 22, "for there is no distinction" between Israel and
non-Israel when it comes to putting one's faith in Christ to get out
from "under the law."

So it is with us on the broader level. The whole world is "under the
law" because the law convicts them of sin. The whole world is
accountable to the law on some level, for "all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). The way to come "under grace"
is by faith in Jesus Christ, whose death on the cross pays the full
penalty for our sin. Faith applies His death as payment for our sin.
Once that debt is paid, we are not under the law, but under grace
(Rom. 6:14).

Does this mean we have the license to continue in sin that grace
may abound (Rom. 6:15)? Of course not. Just because the law no
longer condemns us does not give Christians a license to continue
sinning--that is, to continue violating the law. Just because we are
no longer under the law's penalty does not mean that the law has
no further use and purpose. In fact, those who continue in sin are
abusing grace, and their faith itself is called into question.

This problem was prevalent in Jeremiah's day, when he confronted
the people in Jer. 7:9, 10,

10 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear
falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal, and walk after other
gods that you have not known,
11 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is
called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all
these abominations'?"


Did you get that fivesense? I'm not making this up...I'm trying to
explain how God deals with us who breaks His Law (sin) and
thinks somehow God overlooks what we have done because
we are under Grace.

There are Christians also who think they have a license to sin,
and who then go to Church and say, "We have been delivered
by Jesus Christ to do all these abominations." Jeremiah says
that this makes the temple a "den of robbers." A robbers' den
is a safe-haven from the law, a hide-out, where they can be
lawless with immunity.

God's righteous standard was not put away. Only the means by
which we attain that righteous standard changed. Under the Old
Covenant, the people were told to achieve it by the power of their
own works and self-discipline. Under the New Covenant, we
achieve it through the three steps laid out in the feast days. We
get an imputed righteousness up front through Passover, then
go through obedience training in Pentecost, and finally are made
actually righteous in the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles.

It is not about doing away with all righteous standards, for God
is not satisfied to leave all men in their current condition and
simply label them "righteous." No, God will not be satisfied until
we all look like Jesus Christ.

Back in the Garden when Adam and Eve sinned, God could have
allowed them access to the tree of life after their sin. But the
mercy of God did not want them to be immortal sinners. What
could be worse than leaving men in their sinful condition for
eternity? So God drove them out of the Garden and set Cherubim
to guard the way of the tree of life. That was an act of merciful
judgment.

The same holds true under the New Covenant. God does not
intend to create immortal sinners today, any more than in the
Garden.

If you do a study of the New Testament word anomia, "lawlessness,"
you will be enlightened to find that such an attitude and practice is
nowhere condoned by any author. Jesus condemns it in Matt. 7:23,
saying to such people "depart from Me, you who practice anomia."
Paul exhorts us in Rom. 6:19 to cease from the lawless (anomia)
way of life that we practiced before coming to Christ. John says "sin
is anomia" and that those afflicted with this heart-attitude are "of the
devil" (1 John 2:8).

Paul took the Gospel beyond the borders of Judea and Judaism.
To him, the whole world was in need of a Savior because everyone
was accountable before the divine law. All had sinned, whether or
not they had even heard of the Ten Commandments. All were
condemned by the law impartially, and likewise, all were to be saved
through Christ impartially and in the same manner.

I was asked recently how God could judge the non-Israelite nations
for sin when they had not received the law. Read Psalm 19. The
heavens tell of the glory of God. Verse 4 says, "Their line has gone
out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world."
Everyone has some level of knowledge. Israel had MORE knowledge,
and this made them MORE accountable, and God certainly judges
according to one's level of knowledge, as Jesus tells us in Luke 12:
47, 48.

Hence, God judged the whole earth for its wickedness at the time of
Noah's flood. He judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their "sin" (Gen.
18:20). In Amos 1 and 2, God judged Damascus, Gaza, Edom, Ekron,
Philistia, Tyre, and Moab as well as Judah and Israel for their
"transgressions." Without a law to transgress, they would have had
no transgression for God to judge, for Paul says in Rom. 4:15 that
where there is no law, there is no transgression. God has always
held the nations accountable, or else His judgments would have
been unjust.

Hope I explained myself a little better.

Logabe


Hi Logabe. I commend you for your putting this all together for me. It is a good exercise. However, if our premise and originating point is based upon incorrect knowledge, then the whole of an argument is skewed. Such is the case whenever we fail to recognize the need of proper division of the word of God. It is plainly said, the Gentile nations never had law, were not under law, and are a law unto themselves. To argue points based upon anything contrary to these truths is futile and self-serving. They are not God inspired. Your reasoning, as I said before, is acute. But that does not make it correct. The continued refusal to accept what God has said, and the reliance upon human reasoning from Scripture is a dead end, with no light to be acquired. Thank you just the same for your efforts to have the Writings put forward as a testimony to truth.
fivesense
 

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
880
47
28
66
Fivesense...you have some really good questions and I will attempt
to answer some of them today. Let's break the Law down a little bit
from Paul's perspective. The Apostle Paul deals with the broad view
on the law, telling us in Rom. 3:19 and 20,

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to
those who are under the law, that every mouth may be
closed, and all the world may become accountable to God,
20 because by the works of the law no flesh will be justified
in His sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin."


Paul had just shown that "there is none righteous, not even one"
(vs. 10). Anyone who attaches his salvation upon his own
righteousness--that is, his ability to do what is right in the sight of
God--has a misplaced faith. His faith is in himself and his own
righteousness, not in Christ's righteousness. Paul says that all
have sinned, and that no man is righteous. In other words, all men
need some other method of achieving righteousness (salvation)
other than by their own self-discipline, learning, and ability.

In the course of this argument, he writes verses 19 and 20 above.
The law gives us a knowledge of sin. It identifies sin, because, as
1 John 3:4 says, "sin is lawlessness." But the law cannot give us
the ability to keep it. Only the Holy Spirit working in us can do that.
And so, Paul says, whatever the law says, it speaks to those who
are under the law.


To whom does the law speak? Which people does the law convict
of sin? "Every mouth" and "all the world." Here it is plainly said that
all the world is accountable to God because they are "under the law."
It is not just Israel, nor any other limited group of people. Paul goes
on to say in verse 22, "for there is no distinction" between Israel and
non-Israel when it comes to putting one's faith in Christ to get out
from "under the law."

So it is with us on the broader level. The whole world is "under the
law" because the law convicts them of sin. The whole world is
accountable to the law on some level, for "all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). The way to come "under grace"
is by faith in Jesus Christ, whose death on the cross pays the full
penalty for our sin. Faith applies His death as payment for our sin.
Once that debt is paid, we are not under the law, but under grace
(Rom. 6:14).

Does this mean we have the license to continue in sin that grace
may abound (Rom. 6:15)? Of course not. Just because the law no
longer condemns us does not give Christians a license to continue
sinning--that is, to continue violating the law. Just because we are
no longer under the law's penalty does not mean that the law has
no further use and purpose. In fact, those who continue in sin are
abusing grace, and their faith itself is called into question.

This problem was prevalent in Jeremiah's day, when he confronted
the people in Jer. 7:9, 10,

10 Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear
falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal, and walk after other
gods that you have not known,
11 then come and stand before Me in this house, which is
called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered to do all
these abominations'?"


Did you get that fivesense? I'm not making this up...I'm trying to
explain how God deals with us who breaks His Law (sin) and
thinks somehow God overlooks what we have done because
we are under Grace.

There are Christians also who think they have a license to sin,
and who then go to Church and say, "We have been delivered
by Jesus Christ to do all these abominations." Jeremiah says
that this makes the temple a "den of robbers." A robbers' den
is a safe-haven from the law, a hide-out, where they can be
lawless with immunity.

God's righteous standard was not put away. Only the means by
which we attain that righteous standard changed. Under the Old
Covenant, the people were told to achieve it by the power of their
own works and self-discipline. Under the New Covenant, we
achieve it through the three steps laid out in the feast days. We
get an imputed righteousness up front through Passover, then
go through obedience training in Pentecost, and finally are made
actually righteous in the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles.

It is not about doing away with all righteous standards, for God
is not satisfied to leave all men in their current condition and
simply label them "righteous." No, God will not be satisfied until
we all look like Jesus Christ.

Back in the Garden when Adam and Eve sinned, God could have
allowed them access to the tree of life after their sin. But the
mercy of God did not want them to be immortal sinners. What
could be worse than leaving men in their sinful condition for
eternity? So God drove them out of the Garden and set Cherubim
to guard the way of the tree of life. That was an act of merciful
judgment.

The same holds true under the New Covenant. God does not
intend to create immortal sinners today, any more than in the
Garden.

If you do a study of the New Testament word anomia, "lawlessness,"
you will be enlightened to find that such an attitude and practice is
nowhere condoned by any author. Jesus condemns it in Matt. 7:23,
saying to such people "depart from Me, you who practice anomia."
Paul exhorts us in Rom. 6:19 to cease from the lawless (anomia)
way of life that we practiced before coming to Christ. John says "sin
is anomia" and that those afflicted with this heart-attitude are "of the
devil" (1 John 2:8).

Paul took the Gospel beyond the borders of Judea and Judaism.
To him, the whole world was in need of a Savior because everyone
was accountable before the divine law. All had sinned, whether or
not they had even heard of the Ten Commandments. All were
condemned by the law impartially, and likewise, all were to be saved
through Christ impartially and in the same manner.

I was asked recently how God could judge the non-Israelite nations
for sin when they had not received the law. Read Psalm 19. The
heavens tell of the glory of God. Verse 4 says, "Their line has gone
out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world."
Everyone has some level of knowledge. Israel had MORE knowledge,
and this made them MORE accountable, and God certainly judges
according to one's level of knowledge, as Jesus tells us in Luke 12:
47, 48.

Hence, God judged the whole earth for its wickedness at the time of
Noah's flood. He judged Sodom and Gomorrah for their "sin" (Gen.
18:20). In Amos 1 and 2, God judged Damascus, Gaza, Edom, Ekron,
Philistia, Tyre, and Moab as well as Judah and Israel for their
"transgressions." Without a law to transgress, they would have had
no transgression for God to judge, for Paul says in Rom. 4:15 that
where there is no law, there is no transgression. God has always
held the nations accountable, or else His judgments would have
been unjust.

Hope I explained myself a little better.


Logabe


Gal. 1:6,

6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him
who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different
gospel; (7) which is not really another; only there are
some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the
gospel of Christ.


This is no side issue for Paul. To distort the gospel is to desert
Christ Himself. One cannot be justified by the Old Covenant.
Anyone who claims justification through the Old Covenant has
distorted the gospel and actually comes under the curse of the
law, Paul says in the next verses:

8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should
preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have
preached to you, let him be accursed. (9) As we have
said before, so I say again now, if any man is
preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you
received, let him be accursed.


The Old Covenant method of justification says in Deut. 28:1-14,
"If you obey, then I will bless you" (with the blessings of salvation
or justification).

Conversely, it says beginning in Deut. 28:15,

15 "But it shall come about, if you will not obey the
Lord God to observe to do all His commandments
and His statutes with which I charge you today, that
all these curses shall come upon you and overtake
you."


The problem is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of
God (Rom. 3:23). Further, "there is none righteous, not even one"
(Rom. 3:10). For this reason, Paul says in Rom. 3:19,

19 "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it
speaks to those who are under the Law, that every
mouth may be closed, and all the world may become
accountable to God."


In other words, the whole world is under the Law--that is, under
the sentence of the law due to sin.
The Law holds the entire
world accountable for their sin. The Law can save only the
righteous, but there are no righteous men to save, for all have
sinned. The Law can only condemn and "curse" them for their
sin.

And so there must be another way of justification. The Old
Covenant can save only men who are perfectly obedient,
numbering around zero, because it is based upon man's
vow of obedience and his ability to fulfill his vow perfectly.

The New Covenant, on the other hand, is based upon the
ability of Jesus Christ to fulfill the Law perfectly. He was the
spotless Lamb, the only One who was not condemned by
the Law for any sin of His own. By faith, we covenant with
Him and receive His righteousness imputed to us as if it
were our own.

These two Covenants represent two paths to salvation. The
one is based upon man's works and ability to obey; the
second is based upon Christ's work and His ability to obey.
The first covenant came up emptyhanded, for it could only
bring a curse upon the disobedient. The second is the only
way that any man can be blessed and saved, whether he
lived before or after the cross.

And so Paul tells us that the distorted gospel coming from
the Judaizers can result only in the curse of the Law. Those
who depend upon the Old Covenant for their salvation cannot
be saved by it. The distortion comes when these people claim
Jesus Christ, but yet retain the Old Covenant as their means
of salvation. Such people stand somewhere between Judaism
and Christianity, trying to merge the two as if the New Covenant
were simply a new version of the Old Covenant.


Logabe
 

fivesense

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Logabe.

With right understanding and the grasp of the grace of God, your posts are dynamic and powerful. I pray the Body comes to grips with this issue, and the "Judaisers" find their table becomes a snare. The present day club of law-keepers are subjects of the same confusion the Council of Nicea and the Romanish church fell to, the inability to rightly divide the word of truth, the Circumcision truths and the truth for today that Paul the Apostle received from the Glorified Christ. His place as the Apostle to the Gentiles is a point of contention in particular with the "club", as following Paul produces liberty in Christ and maturity in sonship. The Adversary has devoured many saints throughout the centuries with his masquerade, and will continue to do so wherever works are placed on par with grace and faith-obedience.

fivesense
 

Jar

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You either took the 600+ laws and became a Jew or you followed the ways of Jesus. While some of the 10 commandments are pretty obvious (thou shalt not kill) and are further expounded by the teachings of Jesus Christ, I believe that you can't arbitrarily pick and choose what commandments you want to follow- no matter how mainstream (the ten commandments) they are. I think in the case of the Laws of Moses this is definitely an 'All or Nothing' deal.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, there was never any adherence to the Laws of Sabbath. Never were the gentiles told that they had to be circumsized to follow Christ, a public argument that Paul had with Peter, accusing the other man of 'living like a Jew' which in turn provoked Paul to write what is now the Book of Galatians.
 

Paul

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...While some of the 10 commandments are pretty obvious (thou shalt not kill) and are further expounded by the teachings of Jesus Christ, I believe that you can't arbitrarily pick and choose what commandments you want to follow- no matter how mainstream (the ten commandments) they are. I think in the case of the Laws of Moses this is definitely an 'All or Nothing' deal.

...

The Ten Commandments are still all in effect. Remember, Christ became our Sabbath.
 

fivesense

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You either took the 600+ laws and became a Jew or you followed the ways of Jesus. While some of the 10 commandments are pretty obvious (thou shalt not kill) and are further expounded by the teachings of Jesus Christ, I believe that you can't arbitrarily pick and choose what commandments you want to follow- no matter how mainstream (the ten commandments) they are. I think in the case of the Laws of Moses this is definitely an 'All or Nothing' deal.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, there was never any adherence to the Laws of Sabbath. Never were the gentiles told that they had to be circumsized to follow Christ, a public argument that Paul had with Peter, accusing the other man of 'living like a Jew' which in turn provoked Paul to write what is now the Book of Galatians.

Jar, you observe the Record correctly.

During the Lord's earthly ministry, He never said the Law or the ordinances were to be set aside or ignored. He offered only a stricter observance of those things by His brethren, compounding them with the Sermon on the Mount.

Mt 5:17 . Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

While the Lord was begotten of Holy Spirit and empowered thereby, enabling Him to fulfill the righteous demands of the Law, His brethren, Israel could not. They would either submit to His Lordship and live by His rule and reign, a disgusting proposition to the religious and apostate Jew, or else suffer the consequences of rejecting the rightful Heir to the throne. They, along with Pontius Pilate, chose to murder Him.

The Kingdom and the King will return, the Law still in effect and being broken in Israel, incurring even more wrath to come.

We, the Gentile nations, have never been under such a system and covenant with God. They are His demonstration of what mankind is in their hearts. All the world is unable to reply against God in the matter, having demonstrated this to the universe.

The present earth will always be the residence of Law and ordinance. It will maintain all the nations during the Millennium, with Israel effecting judgment and intercession for them. That is their inheritance based upon a God Who never lies and is not a man to break His promises.

Paul addresses Peter's hypocrisy, which should never have had a place in him, knowing the grace of God towards cowards and those who deny Him. But the Galatian letter is a strenuous attempt to verify his place as the sole dispenser of his gospel and the only apostle from God to the Gentiles, the Jewish believers having been locked up in stubbornness and the desire for an earthly domination over the nations. And why not? it was according to promise. But not without the King of Kings at the helm.

At the return of Christ to earth, the world will once more be the place of glory and priesthood for Israel as promised in Deuteronomy, under strict law and rule. Every transgression answered, every wrong addressed, every sword a ploughshear, and peace will be the norm for a thousand years.

Dt 14:2 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that [are] upon the earth

Anyone who believes that God will not fulfill His end of the deal is sorely mistaken. Either that, or without the Spirit of God to minister light where there is darkness.

fivesense