Did Jesus have faith ?

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ChristisGod

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When I answer a post, I am not aware of a hidden agenda. (I suppose I haven't been around long enough.) My posts tend to answer the question directly, assuming the question is a legitimate request for information. Let me ask you this, does your previous experience with DNB color your answer in some way? I'm not being critical. I'm just asking. For my part, had I known that DNB denied the Deity of Christ, my answers would still be the same.

Those who love the truth will follow the evidence wherever it leads and accept the truth whenever they find it. I assume everyone here feels the same way and for this reason I have adopted an ethic of posting that always answers the question as asked and in a straight forward manner.
It matters greatly since we are talking about another jesus, another gospel according to scripture. Jesus and the Apostles addressed believers differently than false teachers. But truth is truth all we can do is present the truth regarding Jesus. The most important question a person can answer is who is Jesus ?

Thats why Jesus said on several occasions asked His disciples who do you say that I Am ? Who do others say that I Am ?

Its all about Jesus from cover to cover. Its why I always focus my studies on the Person of Christ. Anything else is secondary. Jesus is the Primary focus of Scripture in both Testaments.

Jesus said the OT was about Himself

Luke 24:25-27
25
And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 " Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?" 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

John 5:39-40
39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Luke 24:44-45
44
Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,


hope this helps !!!
 

Brakelite

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I do not believe at all, on any level whatsoever, in the deity of Jesus, ...nor the penal substitution theory (PSA), nor any of the Atonement theories that you enumerated above.
I meant every word that I stated in my post that you replied to. The implications of a suffering Messiah, are that he was not impeccable. There is no sacrifice or passion, when there is no threat of loss. If Christ were God, his temptations, plea for dismissal from the cross, and resurrection, were nothing more than an act of bravado, a contrived outcome, with no threat of failure or retention in the grave. God did not propitiate Himself, nor raise Himself from the dead. This is a mockery of God's judicial soundness.

PSA falls apart everywhere. The penalty for sin is eternal death, not just a one-time physical death ...that leads to exaltation at God's right-hand side. For all men still die once. Nothing is commensurate to eternal estrangement from God, outside of eternal estrangement from God. And even then, the 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' that will ensue in ghenna, will be sincere, and thus, not applicable to the perfected Christ who will have no reason to gnash his teeth at God - yes, your premise is so awry, that it is way too hypothetical to even entertain.

The proper Atonement theory is based on the principle of Covenant. The Atonement is effectuated by the abrogation of the Law, the final perfected sacrifice. It was the Law that held us in bondage and condemnation before God 'where there is no law, there is no sin'. God's Levitical Law was not going to fail, or fall by the wayside. It had to be fulfilled by someone, or God would be charged with austerity and impossible demands. Christ proved Adam and all men guilty, by succeeding in doing what none of us did, but should have done, and could have done.
Christ removed the penalty of the Law, and in doing so, justified God in rescinding it and establishing a new Covenant, one based on faith in Jesus' faith and consequent glory.
Your idea that Jesus couldn't be deity on the basis of His use of faith, therefore not having Divine power, could be explained by Philippians 2 which suggests that pre-incarnation Jesus, as the Son of God voluntarily laid aside all His Divine prerogatives in order to fully live the experience of humanity, and by doing so be a complete example for us to take confidence in. This is He could live as He did by faith in God His Father, so could we. That then harmonises with His experiences in life... The temptations... The miracles... And the odd occasion when divinity did flash through but never to personal advantage. Like when the mob fell over backwards when Jesus admitted to His identity, "I am He" when challenged in the garden.
 
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bbyrd009

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Or discourage it.
well, i discourage that, so im not quite sure what you mean i guess
But truth is truth all we can do is present the truth regarding Jesus.
see, i mean no offense here ok, but this is a really bad idea imo
thinking you know the truth

shouldnt be too hard to compare this to
eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge
eh
 
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Enoch111

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I do not believe at all, on any level whatsoever, in the deity of Jesus, ...nor the penal substitution theory (PSA), nor any of the Atonement theories that you enumerated above.
Then why are you falsely identifying yourself as a "Christian"? The honest thing to do would be to replace that with "Unbeliever".
 

Enoch111

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see, i mean no offense here ok, but this is a really bad idea imo thinking you know the truth
Christians know the truth because (1) they know the person who is "the Truth" and (2) they know "the Word of Truth" (the Bible). So it is not for you to claim that Christians do not know the truth.
 

bbyrd009

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Christians know the truth because (1) they know the person who is "the Truth" and (2) they know "the Word of Truth" (the Bible). So it is not for you to claim that Christians do not know the truth.
but i have not claimed that, only suggested it, pEnoch
it is you who does all the claiming in this pretend conversation, eh?
"Christians know the truth"
"they know this..."
"they know that..."
lol, i mean ok bro, go with that if you like ok, fwiw irl i would never do what im doing here, right now anyway. you go boi. go sharpen each other up lol
 

DNB

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Yes, thank you. As we remember the deity of Christ we must always bear in mind that Jesus lived as a human being and as Paul says in his epistle to the Hebrews, Jesus was tempted/tested "in that which he suffered." In Luke's gospel we read about the temptations of Jesus and how he dealt with them, becoming a model for us.
Yes, his temptations, petitions, tears, supplications, prayers and passion, were all real. They were not feigned nor contrived, which, if so, would make a mockery of the soundness and wisdom of God's plan for Redemption.
 

ChristisGod

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Yes, his temptations, petitions, tears, supplications, prayers and passion, were all real. They were not feigned nor contrived, which, if so, would make a mockery of the soundness and wisdom of God's plan for Redemption.
which made Him human but you forgot about all the Scriptures which also declare His Divinity as God.
 

DNB

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Your idea that Jesus couldn't be deity on the basis of His use of faith, therefore not having Divine power, could be explained by Philippians 2 which suggests that pre-incarnation Jesus, as the Son of God voluntarily laid aside all His Divine prerogatives in order to fully live the experience of humanity, and by doing so be a complete example for us to take confidence in. This is He could live as He did by faith in God His Father, so could we. That then harmonises with His experiences in life... The temptations... The miracles... And the odd occasion when divinity did flash through but never to personal advantage. Like when the mob fell over backwards when Jesus admitted to His identity, "I am He" when challenged in the garden.
The Carmen Christi does not describe Christ's deity, but rather, his pre-eminence. God cannot divest Himself of divinity, that is the most absurd and ridiculous notion ever postulated.
Jesus, who read the Scriptures and understood his pre-ordained Messiaship over his fellow human brothers, put this status aside to become a servant to all. Paul exhorts us to 'have the same mindset as this'. How can humans emulate such an act, if Jesus were God? How can God authentically humble Himself before His own creation?
You are speaking absurdities Backlit, things well beyond anyone's ability to comprehend or rationalize.
 

ChristisGod

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The Carmen Christi does not describe Christ's deity, but rather, his pre-eminence. God cannot divest Himself of divinity, that is the most absurd and ridiculous notion ever postulated.
Jesus, who read the Scriptures and understood his pre-ordained Messiaship over his fellow human brothers, put this status aside to become a servant to all. Paul exhorts us to 'have the same mindset as this'. How can humans emulate such an act, if Jesus were God? How can God authentically humble Himself before His own creation?
You are speaking absurdities Backlit, things well beyond anyone's ability to comprehend or rationalize.
You should believe Scripture which declares the Messiah is Divine(YHWH).


Zech 2:8-13
For this is what the Lord Almighty says: "After he has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you — for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye — 9 I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me.
10 "Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the Lord. 11 "Many nations will be joined with the Lord in that day and will become my people. I will live among you and you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you. 12 The Lord will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused himself from his holy dwelling."



Jer 23:5-6
"The days are coming," declares the Lord,
"when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch,
a King who will reign wisely
and do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Judah will be saved
and Israel will live in safety.
This is the name by which he will be called:
The Lord Our Righteousness
.


Isa 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Isa 9:6-7
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Mic 5:2
"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity."

Dan 7:9-14
I kept looking Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 "A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.
11 "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. 12 "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
13 "I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Mal 3:1-3
"Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 "And He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness.


Mal 4:5-6
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 "And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse."

Zech 12:1-10
This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: 2 "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, 'The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.'6 "On that day I will make the leaders of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume right and left all the surrounding peoples, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.7 "The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem's inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the Lord going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

Matt 1:22-24
22 Now all this took place that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."

hope this helps !!!
 

DNB

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Then why are you falsely identifying yourself as a "Christian"? The honest thing to do would be to replace that with "Unbeliever".
Sorry Enoch, it is the other way around. It is the trintarians and modalists that have denied Christ, the Son. You will not accept the Saviour unless he is God, denying the one that God has appointed to bring Him glory by fulfilling His Law - that which He mandated all men to obey. Utterly defying therefore, the meaning of the word Son, and consequently bastardizing the relationship that the Father has with the son, ...which is the whole point of Christ's bestowed exaltation - God's unfathomable love for those that He created in His image.
 
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DNB

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which made Him human but you forgot about all the Scriptures which also declare His Divinity as God.
So, then when you say that Christ had no faith, were you referring to your perception of Jesus as divine, or to your view of him as a human? ...i hope that this notion is beginning to sound ridiculous to you?
 

john t

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What did I say that would lead you to believe that I was emphasizing the deeds of Jesus such as healing, raising the dead etc?

I quoted what you posted as an answer, and you are asking me to clarify what you meant? (((shaking my head)))

I believe this thread concerns the question of Jesus' faith, specifically, whether Jesus had faith or not. My answer is yes, he did.

Jesus is God; He does not "have faith" and there is nothing in the Bible saying that.

In this post, I did an explication of the words Monday at 5:38 PM#79 and in another post, I exegeted the passage. go back to find the answers. It refutes this statement.

CadyandZoe said:
Scholars debate whether πίστις Χριστοῦ should be understood as a subjective genitive: Christ's faith, or Christ's faithfulness, or an objective genitive: faith in Christ. The reason why it's hard to decide, the reason why scholars debate the issue is because it works either way. Justification by faith in Jesus Christ is certainly a Biblical concept. But who can deny that Jesus was being faithful to the Father when he voluntarily went to the cross?
 

CadyandZoe

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I quoted what you posted as an answer, and you are asking me to clarify what you meant? (((shaking my head)))
If you quoted someone, it wasn't me.

Jesus is God; He does not "have faith" and there is nothing in the Bible saying that.
Did Jesus believe the word of God or not?
 

john t

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DNB said:
I do not believe at all, on any level whatsoever, in the deity of Jesus,

Then what are you doing on a Christian board? That statement (by definition) removes you from the fellowship of believers.

Since you do not believe in the Atonement, your first statement makes the latter statement about any of the theories of the Atonement irrelevant
 
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