What Is God's Definition Of Sin?

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jiggyfly

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Remind me not to play checkers with you. B)
Well said.

Congrat's to all. As usual you've all managed to put up good arguments for your various oppinions.
Mine?
There is no room left any more for sin, judgement and wrath, it was all used up on JC. Now I stand faultless, perfect and whole before my Father because he sees me through Christ. There is now nothing I can do to make me “better” or more “sinless”.

When I look at me with my own eyes, I don’t measure up to that. I see my pride, selfishness, impurity and shame. That just makes me cling all the harder to Jesus. I’m a beloved child of the Most High God. He takes a personal interest in me, always wanting the best for me, always scheming how I can come into more and more fullness in Christ. My job? Love Him outrageously.

My sin? Sorry, already dies for. My shame? Sorry, already died for. My condemnation? Sorry, already died for. My future? Safe in my Daddy’s arms.

Grat






You terribly wonderful brother.
fivesense

Tis true, you were missed terribly too Grat, good to have you back.
biggrin.gif
 

Grat

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Good to be back.
So many are so set in their ways that they just can’t see the freedom for the bars. It’s just so sad.
Really, I feel so selfish spending time on these boards. The joy and life that wells up in my spirit as I get to boast about my freedom in Christ. About the sacrifices made by my lover, Jesus. About the strength of my God. It’s so delicious that if people really understood Christianity they’d make it illegal.

Grat
 

fivesense

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Good to be back.
So many are so set in their ways that they just can’t see the freedom for the bars. It’s just so sad.
Really, I feel so selfish spending time on these boards. The joy and life that wells up in my spirit as I get to boast about my freedom in Christ. About the sacrifices made by my lover, Jesus. About the strength of my God. It’s so delicious that if people really understood Christianity they’d make it illegal.

Grat


Invoke Him, brother!!!!

fivesense
 

Guestman

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When you assault the members of the body of Christ you really need to get your facts straight. The wars inspired, directed and conducted by atheist governments in the twentieth century alone amount to over one hundred million dead. This is far more than the TOTAL of all religious wars in the history of mankind combined.

World War I began as the result of tension between European political powers and those of the east; the Ottoman Empire, Russian Empire, etc.

The issues were political and economic, NOT religious.

World War II begin in CHINA in 1931 with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria. The conflict there was motivated by the godless Japanese Imperial Empire in opposition to the Communist and Nationalist Chinese, none of which were Christian. In Europe the blood began to flow when the atheist NAZIs began to exercise political and military aggression against their neighbors. One of the parties to the conflict was the Soviet Union; also an atheist government.

The Opium wars in China were caused by British corporations, specifically the British East India Trading company and one other which eludes my memory. It was wholly inspired by corporate profit and greed and had nothing at all to do with religion. The Brits were peddling drugs/opium to the Chinese and the Chinese government attempted to stop it by force. There was nothing high minded or principled about it.

In actual fact, a group of Christians in the city of Shanghai created safe houses and small communities outside the city where those who were attempting to flee the carnage and abuse could find comfort and aid. These selfless people risked their lives and often lost all their possessions in the effort to comfort and support the innoncents who were caught up in war and the godless profiteers. During WWII in the city of Nanking, the godless Japanese Army raped and brutalized over 350,000 men women and children in a period of seven weeks from the end of 1937 to the beginning of 1938. Christians there created a Safe Zone where noncombantants and retreating soldiers could try to get food and rest.

If you want a short list of the atrocities perpetuated upon humanity by atheists, go to the rolls of the dead in Nanking, Shanghai, Buchenwald, Treblinka, Auschwitz, the Stalinist gulags and the Japanese Mitsubishi labor camps.

You are at liberty to hate Christianity as much as you like, but you are not entitled to use lies and baseless accusations to sell your dogma to others.

It is an historical fact that atheist religious bigots across the board seek to begin an argument with lies, to sustain it with indefensible fallacies and to completely ignore the conclusions of logic which are in opposition to their hate mongering.

In the end, they like their NAZI and communist bretheren, unable to convince by lies resort to restrictions of liberty by force upon those whose gospel they despise.

The atheist agenda has never been truth, freedom or the rights of men. Instead their purpose has been to assume power over the defenseless, to wage unremitting murderous war upon their neighbors and to practice unrestrained atrocities against any and every person they choose.

That is the sad and disgusting history of organized atheist governments and those who deny the divine spark in humanity. That is the truth which none who espouse that heinous philosophy will ever dare to admit or embrace.

Overcome with their own hatred of all that is right and pure, they point their ugly twisted arguments at those who have done no wrong and are guilty of nothing more than a deep desire to love and serve Christ and their fellow man.

Therein lies the true agenda and dogma of atheism in the modern era.
Suppress Christianity in all its forms and deny the truth where ever it raises its head.

If the reader seeks a true and accurate definition of sin, it is atheism.

My facts are straight concerning WWI starting in Christendom, for in 1914, the vast majority of the population in Austria-Hungary professed to be Roman Catholic (90 percent of Austria and 60 percent of Hungary), which declared war on Serbia on July 28, 1914. At the beginning of the 20th century, religious life in Austria danced to the tempo set primarily by the Roman Catholic Church. With Austria-Hungary declaring war on Serbia, this escalated into the first world war, eventually involving 93 percent of the world's population.

For centuries the official religion in Austria was Roman Catholicism, as dictated by the Hapsburg rulers. Even as late as 1989, 84 percent of the population professed to be Roman Catholic, and there is a concordat between Austria and the Vatican that assures government financial support for the Catholic Church. Another 6 percent are listed as Protestants. Austria-Hungary was bordered by Germany, which was Catholic and Protestant, Croatia, which was mostly Roman Catholic, and Italy, which is home to the Vatican. Thus, WWI started in Christendom.

And this was also true of WWII, which began when Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939 and not when Japan invaded China in 1931. Germany was still under the influence of the Catholic Church, with Hitler himself, though from Austria, a Catholic. It was the Catholic Church that propelled Hitler to power in 1933. On July 20, 1933, the Vatican’s interest in the rising power of Nazism was displayed when Cardinal Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) signed a concordat in Rome between the Vatican and Nazi Germany. Former chancellor Franz Von Papen, a Papal Knight, signed the document as Hitler’s representative, and Pacelli there conferred on von Papen the high papal decoration of the Grand Cross of the Order of Pius.

In his book Satan in Top Hat, Tibor Koeves writes of this, stating: “The Concordat was a great victory for Hitler. It gave him the first moral support he had received from the outer world, and this from the most exalted source.” The concordat required the Vatican to withdraw its support from Germany’s Catholic Center Party, thus sanctioning Hitler’s one-party “total state.” Further, its article 14 stated: “The appointments for archbishops, bishops, and the like will be issued only after the governor, installed by the Reich, has duly ascertained that no doubts exist with respect to general political considerations.” By the end of 1933 (proclaimed a “Holy Year” by Pope Pius XI), Vatican support had become a major factor in Hitler’s push for world domination.

Thus, following Nazi Germany's blitzkrieg of Poland in 1939, France, along with most of the countries of the British Empire and Commonwealth, subsequently declared war on Germany. China and Japan had their own war, apart from this world war. Hence, both WWI and WWII started in Christendom, so that Catholics slaughtered Catholics and Protestants slaughtered Protestants, with each praying for victory to God. In fact German soldiers wore belt buckles that was inscribed with the words "Gott mit uns (God is with us)." A man who was in the German Air Force, the Luftwaffe, even asked the question: "What disturbed me during those war years . . . was seeing clergymen of practically all denominations—Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, and so forth—blessing the aircraft and their crews before they took off on missions to drop their deadly cargo. I often thought, ‘Whose side is God on?’ "

Hence, these facts stand on their own, with the fault not lying with Christianity but rather with those who profess to follow Christ's teachings, but "proved false to it's power."(2 Tim 3:5) Jesus clearly stated that "By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit."(Matt 7:16-18)

The churches of Christendom have shown what kind of "fruit" that they have - rotten. History is rife with the atrocities of both Catholicism and Protestantism, along with other religious factions that give the impression of being Christian, that did ' not put up with the healthful teaching (of true Christianity), but, in accord with their own desires, they accumulated teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they turned their ears away from the truth, whereas they....turned aside to false stories. '(2 Tim 4:3, 4)

Jesus also said that "not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you ! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness."(Matt 7:21-23)

On the other hand, true Christians would be known by their "works", ones that followed closely in Jesus footsteps, whereby they would "be no part of the world" and it's bitter disputes.(John 15:19) These would be known for clearly adhering to Jesus words to his apostles: "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”(John 13:34, 35)

Both WWI and WWII showed that the churches have not follow Jesus words but rather followed a pseudo-Christianity or false Christianity. Jesus gave an illustration showing that the Christian congregation that he established and went into operation on Pentecost 33 C.E., would become corrupted, would apostasize or "fall away" at Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43. Isaiah 2:2-4 shows that the true religion would then be reestablished in the "last days", our time period.(King James Bible) These ones of the true religion, contrary to the pattern the churches have set, of being "part and parcel" with the "kings of the earth" and therefore committing "fornication" with them (Rev 17:1, 2), have instead ' beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, learning war no more'(Isa 2:4), which the churches have not done.
 

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Choir Loft
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My facts are straight concerning WWI starting in Christendom, for in 1914, the vast majority of the population in Austria-Hungary professed to be Roman Catholic (90 percent of Austria and 60 percent of Hungary), which declared war on Serbia on July 28, 1914. At the beginning of the 20th century, religious life in Austria danced to the tempo set primarily by the Roman Catholic Church. With Austria-Hungary declaring war on Serbia, this escalated into the first world war, eventually involving 93 percent of the world's population.

For centuries the official religion in Austria was Roman Catholicism, as dictated by the Hapsburg rulers. Even as late as 1989, 84 percent of the population professed to be Roman Catholic, and there is a concordat between Austria and the Vatican that assures government financial support for the Catholic Church. Another 6 percent are listed as Protestants. Austria-Hungary was bordered by Germany, which was Catholic and Protestant, Croatia, which was mostly Roman Catholic, and Italy, which is home to the Vatican. Thus, WWI started in Christendom.

And this was also true of WWII, which began when Germany invaded Poland on September 1, 1939 and not when Japan invaded China in 1931. Germany was still under the influence of the Catholic Church, with Hitler himself, though from Austria, a Catholic. It was the Catholic Church that propelled Hitler to power in 1933. On July 20, 1933, the Vatican’s interest in the rising power of Nazism was displayed when Cardinal Pacelli (who later became Pope Pius XII) signed a concordat in Rome between the Vatican and Nazi Germany. Former chancellor Franz Von Papen, a Papal Knight, signed the document as Hitler’s representative, and Pacelli there conferred on von Papen the high papal decoration of the Grand Cross of the Order of Pius.

In his book Satan in Top Hat, Tibor Koeves writes of this, stating: “The Concordat was a great victory for Hitler. It gave him the first moral support he had received from the outer world, and this from the most exalted source.” The concordat required the Vatican to withdraw its support from Germany’s Catholic Center Party, thus sanctioning Hitler’s one-party “total state.” Further, its article 14 stated: “The appointments for archbishops, bishops, and the like will be issued only after the governor, installed by the Reich, has duly ascertained that no doubts exist with respect to general political considerations.” By the end of 1933 (proclaimed a “Holy Year” by Pope Pius XI), Vatican support had become a major factor in Hitler’s push for world domination.

Thus, following Nazi Germany's blitzkrieg of Poland in 1939, France, along with most of the countries of the British Empire and Commonwealth, subsequently declared war on Germany. China and Japan had their own war, apart from this world war. Hence, both WWI and WWII started in Christendom, so that Catholics slaughtered Catholics and Protestants slaughtered Protestants, with each praying for victory to God. In fact German soldiers wore belt buckles that was inscribed with the words "Gott mit uns (God is with us)." A man who was in the German Air Force, the Luftwaffe, even asked the question: "What disturbed me during those war years . . . was seeing clergymen of practically all denominations—Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, and so forth—blessing the aircraft and their crews before they took off on missions to drop their deadly cargo. I often thought, ‘Whose side is God on?’ "

Hence, these facts stand on their own, with the fault not lying with Christianity but rather with those who profess to follow Christ's teachings, but "proved false to it's power."(2 Tim 3:5) Jesus clearly stated that "By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit."(Matt 7:16-18)

The churches of Christendom have shown what kind of "fruit" that they have - rotten. History is rife with the atrocities of both Catholicism and Protestantism, along with other religious factions that give the impression of being Christian, that did ' not put up with the healthful teaching (of true Christianity), but, in accord with their own desires, they accumulated teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they turned their ears away from the truth, whereas they....turned aside to false stories. '(2 Tim 4:3, 4)

Jesus also said that "not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you ! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness."(Matt 7:21-23)

On the other hand, true Christians would be known by their "works", ones that followed closely in Jesus footsteps, whereby they would "be no part of the world" and it's bitter disputes.(John 15:19) These would be known for clearly adhering to Jesus words to his apostles: "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”(John 13:34, 35)

Both WWI and WWII showed that the churches have not follow Jesus words but rather followed a pseudo-Christianity or false Christianity. Jesus gave an illustration showing that the Christian congregation that he established and went into operation on Pentecost 33 C.E., would become corrupted, would apostasize or "fall away" at Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43. Isaiah 2:2-4 shows that the true religion would then be reestablished in the "last days", our time period.(King James Bible) These ones of the true religion, contrary to the pattern the churches have set, of being "part and parcel" with the "kings of the earth" and therefore committing "fornication" with them (Rev 17:1, 2), have instead ' beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, learning war no more'(Isa 2:4), which the churches have not done.


A more twisted and bigoted interpretation of historical events I have not read on these pages.

The commencement of hostilities in the twentieth century were motivated by politics and economic necessities. It was true for WWI and for WWII. The leadership of aggressive countries were atheistic and anti-Christian, not the other way around. That's where the atrocities originated and why nearly 100 million people died. You can believe that the whole thing was the fault of religion, but you will be believing a lie.

I suppose by your interpretation, if there were ten Christians in any participating country, then the whole thing would be their fault.

How in God's name do you reason that the beginning of WWII began in 1939 instead of 1931? Are you now reassigning the laws of arithmetic to suit your particular bias and to justify your hatred of Christianity? WWII is usually referred to as 'theaters' of war. The European theater began in 1939 while the Asian theater began in 1931. Therefore general hostilies for the war as a whole are considered to have begun in 1931 in Manchuria. Your European bias also seems to be a bit racist in its preferences and interpretations - also a sign of atheist philosophy.

Any historical account worth its salt will state that hostilities began with Japanese 'incidents' in Manchuria in 1931. Those aggressions were the main reason for US opposition to Japanese military atrocities there and the ultimate attack upon Pearl Harbor in 1941.

The churches of Europe in WWI and WWII were a minor echo in the whole scheme of things. Your imaginations of their activity or lack of it is nothing more than uninformed bigoted lies. No one with any real academic background, or any common sense for that matter would buy it.

It might work on atheist talk radio, but it wouldn't work with anyone with a real education.
 

brionne

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The churches of Europe in WWI and WWII were a minor echo in the whole scheme of things. Your imaginations of their activity or lack of it is nothing more than uninformed bigoted lies. No one with any real academic background, or any common sense for that matter would buy it.

It might work on atheist talk radio, but it wouldn't work with anyone with a real education.

politics have always been greatly influenced by the church leaders....they still are today although it seems the governments are now, finally, trying to push religious influence out of parliament.


On October 3, 1935, Italy invaded Abyssinia with what would appear to be the Catholic Church's blessing. In the book The Vatican in the Age of the Dictators by Anthony Rhodes it states:

“In his Pastoral Letter of the 19th October [1935], the Bishop of Udine [Italy] wrote, ‘It is neither timely nor fitting for us to pronounce on the rights and wrongs of the case. Our duty as Italians, and still more as Christians is to contribute to the success of our arms.’ The Bishop of Padua wrote on the 21st October, ‘In the difficult hours through which we are passing, we ask you to have faith in our statesmen and armed forces.’ On the 24th October, the Bishop of Cremona consecrated a number of regimental flags and said: ‘The blessing of God be upon these soldiers who, on African soil, will conquer new and fertile lands for the Italian genius, thereby bringing to them Roman and Christian culture. May Italy stand once again as the Christian mentor to the whole world.’”


In WW2, the Vatican as well as the Catholic Church gave either active or tacit support to the Nazi's. A pastoral letter issued by the German Catholic bishops in September 1939 at the outbreak of World War II reads in part: “In this decisive hour we admonish our Catholic soldiers to do their duty in obedience to the Fuehrer and to be ready to sacrifice their whole individuality. We appeal to the Faithful to join in ardent prayers that Divine Providence may lead this war to blessed success.” This letter was quoted in The New York Times, September 25, 1939.

The Enciclopedia del Novecento Volume IV, page 519 under the heading of 'National Socialism' states:
“But since the episcopacy, after agreeing to an unusually obliging concordat [with the Nazis], was hesitant to go openly against the regime, and since Secretary of State cardinal Pacelli (later pope Pius XII) looked favorably on the anti-Bolshevik aspect of the Third Reich . . . the tension never exploded into a formal rupture. . . . Nevertheless relations between the regime and the churches, who avoided absolutely uttering a word against the persecution of Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses, were in a state of suspension, since Hitler, against Bormann’s view, forbade actions clearly anticlerical until the war would be over. . . . The majority of the clergy of the two creeds, [Lutheran and Catholic] maintained behavior that was outwardly loyal to the regime . . . In foreign politics the conciliatory attitude of the Vatican was of valid support to the regime, especially during the stage of its rise to power.”


In 1933 the Roman Catholic Church concluded a concordat with the Nazis. Roman Catholic cardinal Faulhaber wrote to Hitler: “This handshake with the Papacy . . . is a feat of immeasurable blessing. . . . May God preserve the Reich Chancellor [Hitler].”

There is also evidence that the Vatican supported nazi war criminals by providing them with false papers to help them escape prosecution at the end of the war. One such war criminal was Franz Paul Stangl who was charged with murdering at least 400,000 people at the Treblinka and Sobibor death camps in Poland. In the Dusseldorf court where he was tried, his wife testified as to how he got out of the country on papers provided by a Vatican bishop.
I guess they are the lengths you have to go to when you sign a concordat with the Nazi regime.


You can learn a great deal about that concordant in a book written by a Franz von Papen entitled 'His Life and Times' published in 1939. It describes in detail how Hitler was brought to power and about the Vatican’s concordat with the Nazis. He explains why Pacelli [Pope Pius XII] failed to speak out against the holocaust that followed.
Or you can find all the info here at Concordat Watch - Germany

Take note of what the Vatican agreed to in Article 16 Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of loyalty either to the Reich governor of the state (Land) concerned or to the President of the Reich respectively, according to the following formula:

"Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise, as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State (Land) of . . . I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honour it. With dutiful concern for the welfare and the interests of the German state, in the performance of the ecclesiastical office entrusted to me, I will endeavour to prevent everything injurious which might threaten it."


The pages of history are full of religions involvement in war and politics.
 

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Choir Loft
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politics have always been greatly influenced by the church leaders....they still are today although it seems the governments are now, finally, trying to push religious influence out of parliament.


On October 3, 1935, Italy invaded Abyssinia with what would appear to be the Catholic Church's blessing. In the book The Vatican in the Age of the Dictators by Anthony Rhodes it states:

“In his Pastoral Letter of the 19th October [1935], the Bishop of Udine [Italy] wrote, ‘It is neither timely nor fitting for us to pronounce on the rights and wrongs of the case. Our duty as Italians, and still more as Christians is to contribute to the success of our arms.’ The Bishop of Padua wrote on the 21st October, ‘In the difficult hours through which we are passing, we ask you to have faith in our statesmen and armed forces.’ On the 24th October, the Bishop of Cremona consecrated a number of regimental flags and said: ‘The blessing of God be upon these soldiers who, on African soil, will conquer new and fertile lands for the Italian genius, thereby bringing to them Roman and Christian culture. May Italy stand once again as the Christian mentor to the whole world.’”


In WW2, the Vatican as well as the Catholic Church gave either active or tacit support to the Nazi's. A pastoral letter issued by the German Catholic bishops in September 1939 at the outbreak of World War II reads in part: “In this decisive hour we admonish our Catholic soldiers to do their duty in obedience to the Fuehrer and to be ready to sacrifice their whole individuality. We appeal to the Faithful to join in ardent prayers that Divine Providence may lead this war to blessed success.” This letter was quoted in The New York Times, September 25, 1939.

The Enciclopedia del Novecento Volume IV, page 519 under the heading of 'National Socialism' states:
“But since the episcopacy, after agreeing to an unusually obliging concordat [with the Nazis], was hesitant to go openly against the regime, and since Secretary of State cardinal Pacelli (later pope Pius XII) looked favorably on the anti-Bolshevik aspect of the Third Reich . . . the tension never exploded into a formal rupture. . . . Nevertheless relations between the regime and the churches, who avoided absolutely uttering a word against the persecution of Jews and Jehovah’s Witnesses, were in a state of suspension, since Hitler, against Bormann’s view, forbade actions clearly anticlerical until the war would be over. . . . The majority of the clergy of the two creeds, [Lutheran and Catholic] maintained behavior that was outwardly loyal to the regime . . . In foreign politics the conciliatory attitude of the Vatican was of valid support to the regime, especially during the stage of its rise to power.”


In 1933 the Roman Catholic Church concluded a concordat with the Nazis. Roman Catholic cardinal Faulhaber wrote to Hitler: “This handshake with the Papacy . . . is a feat of immeasurable blessing. . . . May God preserve the Reich Chancellor [Hitler].”

There is also evidence that the Vatican supported nazi war criminals by providing them with false papers to help them escape prosecution at the end of the war. One such war criminal was Franz Paul Stangl who was charged with murdering at least 400,000 people at the Treblinka and Sobibor death camps in Poland. In the Dusseldorf court where he was tried, his wife testified as to how he got out of the country on papers provided by a Vatican bishop.
I guess they are the lengths you have to go to when you sign a concordat with the Nazi regime.


You can learn a great deal about that concordant in a book written by a Franz von Papen entitled 'His Life and Times' published in 1939. It describes in detail how Hitler was brought to power and about the Vatican’s concordat with the Nazis. He explains why Pacelli [Pope Pius XII] failed to speak out against the holocaust that followed.
Or you can find all the info here at Concordat Watch - Germany

Take note of what the Vatican agreed to in Article 16 Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of loyalty either to the Reich governor of the state (Land) concerned or to the President of the Reich respectively, according to the following formula:

"Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise, as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State (Land) of . . . I swear and promise to honour the legally constituted government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honour it. With dutiful concern for the welfare and the interests of the German state, in the performance of the ecclesiastical office entrusted to me, I will endeavour to prevent everything injurious which might threaten it."


The pages of history are full of religions involvement in war and politics.

That the Vatican was surrounded by Fascist governments who were suppressing ANY opposition is generally accepted as a reason for their neutrality and, at least in the beginning, shallow approval. What were they supposed to do? Die to a man and woman? Many did, in fact before the shooting was over. In fact even the Jews supported the NAZIs in the beginning. Are you now going to state that those who suffered most at the hands of Godless men were somehow culpable? I think not, for that is the greatest expression of bigotry possible and you wouldn't dare to get caught in that one I think.

Your multiple quotations of Catholic duplicity in Fascist adventures in Europe and Africa simply lends support to my premise that the atheist racist governments of Italy and Germany were foremost in fomenting, organizing and carrying out one of the most wicked campaigns in human history.

Again my statement stands that the war in Europe as well as in Asia was caused by atheist leaders. Show me ANY document wherein the church organized, created, and provided significant military support for the prosecution of the war in ANY theater. That's MILITARY suport, for it was indeed the guns and bombs and troops that armed and carried out Fascist policy.

Let's return to Manchuria shall we? The racist statement made earlier that the war didn't begin until 1939 is unacceptable. The persecution and death of over a million innocent Chinese BEGINNING in 1931 at the hands of the Godless Imperial Japanese Army cannot be overlooked and forgotten. You also overlook the fact that significant CHRISTIAN support was given to refugees during that campaign. I'm talking about relief to hundreds and hundreds of thousands of victims of Japanese agression. You haven't said a word about such a fine and noble work. Instead you continue to blather on with your pointless argument that somehow the whole thing was the fault of Christians NEVER ONCE admitting one dot of guilt on the part of Facist leaders. I just have one more question.

Are you a NAZI sympathizer or perhaps a Communist?

I ask this because your sympathies seem to lie nowhere else.
 

brionne

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Your multiple quotations of Catholic duplicity in Fascist adventures in Europe and Africa simply lends support to my premise that the atheist racist governments of Italy and Germany were foremost in fomenting, organizing and carrying out one of the most wicked campaigns in human history.

And who do you think encouraged and blessed the soldiers in the war effort? Why did the church have chaplains for the soldiers? Why were the church's offering prayers for Hitler at all their services in harmony with the concordant? And why would the vatican enter into any agreement with Hitler if they were staying neutral? Sitting down for talks and cups of tea is not being neutral.


Again my statement stands that the war in Europe as well as in Asia was caused by atheist leaders. Show me ANY document wherein the church organized, created, and provided significant military support for the prosecution of the war in ANY theater. That's MILITARY suport, for it was indeed the guns and bombs and troops that armed and carried out Fascist policy.

Hitler was not an athiest. He was a Catholic.

I'm talking about relief to hundreds and hundreds of thousands of victims of Japanese agression. You haven't said a word about such a fine and noble work. Instead you continue to blather on with your pointless argument that somehow the whole thing was the fault of Christians NEVER ONCE admitting one dot of guilt on the part of Facist leaders.

because I am replying to your claim that the church is not involved in the politics & wars of the nations. Of course they are and they continue to be which is why you can find army chaplains on every army base.

I just have one more question.
Are you a NAZI sympathizer or perhaps a Communist?
I ask this because your sympathies seem to lie nowhere else.

Are you a church sympathizer who turns a blind eye to the facts that they were in bed with the nazi's during one of the most horrific campaigns ever launched.?
 

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Choir Loft
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Are you a church sympathizer who turns a blind eye to the facts that they were in bed with the nazi's during one of the most horrific campaigns ever launched.?

No priest every shot a Jew nor escorted one into a gas chamber. Atheist NAZIs did that.
No Christian army raped and murdered nearly four hundred thousand innocent civilians in the city of Nanking, China. The godless Imperial Japanese Army did that.
No Christian condemend millions to death in Russian gulags. Atheist Soviets did that.

Your historical revisionism, at once blaming Christianity and ignoring atheist atrocities, is consistent with atheist tyranny of the meanest sort.

My position from the very beginning and to which I remain steadfast is that atheist governments began and prosecuted the wars and atrocities against humanity. Further that these wars and atrocities were directly responsible for approximately one hundred million deaths during the second world war alone, far more than all religious wars of all nations and tribes in all of human history combined.

If any logical man is to consider the moral and immoral weight of these crimes alone, then that person will have to arrive at the inescapable conclusion that atheism itself is a crime against logic, humanity and God.

To this day atheists deny their guilt in these conflicts and the naked immorality of the consequences of their philosophy. I have yet to read a single acknowledgment of these matters. In fact, I read a constant misrepresentation of Christianity. This is consistant with the historical religious bigotry of atheism and its satanic roots.

I encourage you sir to reexamine the logic of your philosophy and your attitude of hatred of your fellow man. If you have ever in your life assumed that you seek the truth, then now is the time for reflection. Your attitude toward the right of others to practice their religion/philosophy is consistent with all the tyrants of history who forbade it. The blood of one hundred million people, murdered by the tyranny and racism of atheist governments in the twentieth century, cries out in declaration of it.

The soundness of your own philosophy is in doubt and the eternal destination of your soul is in jeopardy.
No Christian would have you risk that nor wish the terrible consequences of eternity (or even life) without Christ.

Today is the day of salvation. Consider your position before man and God and that there really needs to be some change made.
 

Guestman

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A more twisted and bigoted interpretation of historical events I have not read on these pages.

The commencement of hostilities in the twentieth century were motivated by politics and economic necessities. It was true for WWI and for WWII. The leadership of aggressive countries were atheistic and anti-Christian, not the other way around. That's where the atrocities originated and why nearly 100 million people died. You can believe that the whole thing was the fault of religion, but you will be believing a lie.

I suppose by your interpretation, if there were ten Christians in any participating country, then the whole thing would be their fault.

How in God's name do you reason that the beginning of WWII began in 1939 instead of 1931? Are you now reassigning the laws of arithmetic to suit your particular bias and to justify your hatred of Christianity? WWII is usually referred to as 'theaters' of war. The European theater began in 1939 while the Asian theater began in 1931. Therefore general hostilies for the war as a whole are considered to have begun in 1931 in Manchuria. Your European bias also seems to be a bit racist in its preferences and interpretations - also a sign of atheist philosophy.

Any historical account worth its salt will state that hostilities began with Japanese 'incidents' in Manchuria in 1931. Those aggressions were the main reason for US opposition to Japanese military atrocities there and the ultimate attack upon Pearl Harbor in 1941.

The churches of Europe in WWI and WWII were a minor echo in the whole scheme of things. Your imaginations of their activity or lack of it is nothing more than uninformed bigoted lies. No one with any real academic background, or any common sense for that matter would buy it.

It might work on atheist talk radio, but it wouldn't work with anyone with a real education.

You are no different than many who are unwilling to examine the facts that both WWI And WWII started in Christendom. And as for the time when it began, Time-Life Books series World War II says in the book Blitzkrieg, that following a speech by Hitler on August 31, 1939, in which he "announced that he had thrown all armed might of Germany against the attacking nation (of Poland)", that "thus, he launched World War II."(Pg 19)

The Encarta Encyclopedia says that "Hitler converted Germany into a fully militarized society and launched World War II in 1939....His attempts to conquer territory for German Lebensraum (living space) brought about World War II (1939-1945)."(Microsoft ® Encarta ® Reference Library 2005) Hitler, though a professing Catholic, started WWII that eventually claimed the lives of some 55 million people. The Catholic Church was notably silent during the whole time, especially after having signed a concordat with Hitler and his Nazi henchmen.

Being a true Christian, I have no hatred for Christianity that Jesus established, but rather a love for genuine Christianity and have a disdainful feeling toward the pseudo-Christianity that has been in existence especially since the days of Constantine. I follow what Jesus said, quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5: "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ "(Matt 22:37)

As far as my "imaginations" of the churches' involvement in both WWI and WWII, the historical facts speak for themselves. For example, of their support of political leaders in World War I, British Brigadier General Frank P. Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have and of them we made free use.”(A Brass Hat in No Man’s Land, published in 1930)

Historian Ernesto Galli Della Loggia, in the Catholic daily Avvenire, once said even more pointedly: “Religion does not seem to have constructed a unifying framework among men and among peoples, rather the exact opposite. It has been that way for centuries. Not only have the greatest monotheistic religions fought against one another in a war without quarter but some of them—chiefly Christianity and Islam—have dedicated all their strength to exterminating the animist religions of the so-called primitive peoples. This has occurred because religion and political power are two sides of the same coin.”

Thus, so-called Christianity has "cuddled up " to the political governments of the "world". Paul Johnson’s History of Christianity (1976) describes the norm during the Nazi regime: “Both churches, in the main, gave massive support to the regime. . . . Of 17,000 Evangelical pastors, there were never more than fifty serving long terms [for not supporting the Nazi regime] at any one time. Of the Catholics, one bishop was expelled from his diocese, and another got a short term for currency offences.” As to those who stuck to their principles, Johnson continues: “The bravest were the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who proclaimed their outright doctrinal opposition from the beginning and suffered accordingly. They refused any cooperation with the Nazi state.”

In Argentina, in the seventy's and early eighty's, Roman Catholic clergymen cooperated with brutal regimes so as to maintain their place of prominence, power, and wealth. An editorial with the headlines "Blood taints church in Argentina" in the National Catholic Reporter, dated April 12, 1985, said: "The story of the Catholic church's failings in Argentina is one of silence and complicity with a ruthless military regime, (under President Jorge Rafael Videla [term of office -1976-81], in which more than 6000 people disappeared without a trace), one of the worst in recent history. . . . Church prelates were thus in positions to speak out and make a difference, perhaps even strip the regime of its religious justification. Yet, almost to the last man, they said nothing. Some, including clerics in military uniform, endorsed the torture and killings...the Argentine church - with a few heroic exceptions - was volubly silent throughout the seven-year terror," which ended when a civilian government took power in 1983.
 

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the stench of it is piling up to heaven to fill His nostrils


the dogs outside the gates have fear in their future, NOT Israel

It doesn't sound pretty at all and it reeks of terrible things, but I'm afraid I must in all honesty agree with Jarbreaker's statement.

The Bible clearly states that God has a fearful side and that it is an awful thing to fall into the hands of God when He is angry.
Clouding one's mind with childish fantasies that God is a celestial marshmellow will do nothing to assuage His wrath.
Only the blood of Christ can do that and then only if it is accepted by the individual.

There are multitudes who reject the blood. As in Egypt when the passover blood was applied, most of those who were not Hebrews didn't do so.
They paid a terrible price for their rebellion against the almighty.

The blood of Christ does NOT cover all. That is why the warnings continue. It is summarily illogical to assume that the blood automatically covers all. If it did, there would be no call to salvation. There would be no need. BUT THERE IS. The call has gone out.

NOW IS THE TIME FOR SALVATION. TODAY IS THE DAY OF MERCY.

Do not wait. Do not delay. Eternity stands at the door only a heartbeat away.
 

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You are no different than many who are unwilling to examine the facts that both WWI And WWII started in Christendom. And as for the time when it began, Time-Life Books series World War II says in the book Blitzkrieg, that following a speech by Hitler on August 31, 1939, in which he "announced that he had thrown all armed might of Germany against the attacking nation (of Poland)", that "thus, he launched World War II."(Pg 19)

The Encarta Encyclopedia says that "Hitler converted Germany into a fully militarized society and launched World War II in 1939....His attempts to conquer territory for German Lebensraum (living space) brought about World War II (1939-1945)."(Microsoft ® Encarta ® Reference Library 2005) Hitler, though a professing Catholic, started WWII that eventually claimed the lives of some 55 million people. The Catholic Church was notably silent during the whole time, especially after having signed a concordat with Hitler and his Nazi henchmen.

Being a true Christian, I have no hatred for Christianity that Jesus established, but rather a love for genuine Christianity and have a disdainful feeling toward the pseudo-Christianity that has been in existence especially since the days of Constantine. I follow what Jesus said, quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5: "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ "(Matt 22:37)

As far as my "imaginations" of the churches' involvement in both WWI and WWII, the historical facts speak for themselves. For example, of their support of political leaders in World War I, British Brigadier General Frank P. Crozier said: “The Christian Churches are the finest blood-lust creators which we have and of them we made free use.”(A Brass Hat in No Man’s Land, published in 1930)

Historian Ernesto Galli Della Loggia, in the Catholic daily Avvenire, once said even more pointedly: “Religion does not seem to have constructed a unifying framework among men and among peoples, rather the exact opposite. It has been that way for centuries. Not only have the greatest monotheistic religions fought against one another in a war without quarter but some of them—chiefly Christianity and Islam—have dedicated all their strength to exterminating the animist religions of the so-called primitive peoples. This has occurred because religion and political power are two sides of the same coin.”

Thus, so-called Christianity has "cuddled up " to the political governments of the "world". Paul Johnson’s History of Christianity (1976) describes the norm during the Nazi regime: “Both churches, in the main, gave massive support to the regime. . . . Of 17,000 Evangelical pastors, there were never more than fifty serving long terms [for not supporting the Nazi regime] at any one time. Of the Catholics, one bishop was expelled from his diocese, and another got a short term for currency offences.” As to those who stuck to their principles, Johnson continues: “The bravest were the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who proclaimed their outright doctrinal opposition from the beginning and suffered accordingly. They refused any cooperation with the Nazi state.”

In Argentina, in the seventy's and early eighty's, Roman Catholic clergymen cooperated with brutal regimes so as to maintain their place of prominence, power, and wealth. An editorial with the headlines "Blood taints church in Argentina" in the National Catholic Reporter, dated April 12, 1985, said: "The story of the Catholic church's failings in Argentina is one of silence and complicity with a ruthless military regime, (under President Jorge Rafael Videla [term of office -1976-81], in which more than 6000 people disappeared without a trace), one of the worst in recent history. . . . Church prelates were thus in positions to speak out and make a difference, perhaps even strip the regime of its religious justification. Yet, almost to the last man, they said nothing. Some, including clerics in military uniform, endorsed the torture and killings...the Argentine church - with a few heroic exceptions - was volubly silent throughout the seven-year terror," which ended when a civilian government took power in 1983.

Again with the historical revisionism and the racist hatred. You have stated NOTHING that disagrees with the HISTORICAL fact that hostilities began in Manchuria in 1931 and escalated to full scale war in 1937 (a full two years ahead of the European war). The year 1937 also saw unrestrained human atrocities against the Chinese people by the Japanese army. Where is your scenario of church involvement in that? It is not there, because it never existed.

It never existed in Asia, in the Pacific basin, in Europe, or in Russia.

There was no church involvement in the arming of the Soviet Red Army and there was no involvment in the arming of the Spanish Fascist dictatorship, the German dictatorship or of Mussolini's Italy. Which cathedral served as an arms factory? Which group of priests and ministers trained troops for the front?

Tell us if you know. So far you have artfully dodged that line of documentation. In order to prove Church involvement at the level you insist you MUST prove physical, militaristic, armed involvement.

Are you perhaps fussing over the fact that there were church collaborators in Europe? Indeed there were. They betrayed other priests and ministers, they betrayed their own flock and they betrayed the Jews (whose brothers and sisters we are). Shall these miscreants stand as an example of Christians behavior or shall they be judged as the criminals and traitors they were? Indeed, history has already judged them for their actions, but they never represented the body, the work, and the nature of the gospel. It is the same as pretending to examine the history of those terrible years, all the time denying the entire global pattern and the true cause of it. Atheism. Dehumanising, racist, self-absorbed, murderous atheism.

In point of fact there were a number of Christian organizations that either openly or quietly opposed the NAZI regime. They worked as an underground railroad to get Jews and political enemies of the Reich out of central Europe, they worked to oppose the policies of Hitler's Germany and they suffered for their involvment by means of arrest, detention and death in the same concentration camps as everyone else that the Facists disagreed with. The same was true for those who worked to oppose the inhuman treatments of the Imperial Japanese Army.

I find absolutely no acknowledgement by you of any of these matters, which are documented historical fact. Instead I find obscure hate dialog with regard to the church, with regard to the Chinese people and with regard to the actual material fact of the beginning and ending of the conflict of the mid-twentieth century known as WWII. Your inaccuries with regard to WWI are similar. Without going into a detailed account of nations, organizations and dates involved in the earlier war, I am convinced that you would oppose any factual knowledge contrary to your bigoted attitude.

You say you are Christian. So be it. That is a matter between you and God. The noises you make, however, echo of racism, religious bigotry, historical revisionism and reek of atheistic sympathies.
 

RND

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Which one of the "Ten" did Adam break?
He coveted something that was not his from his wife. His wife took and eat something that was not hers to take and eat so thus she was stealing and he was in possession of stolen property. But if you think about it Adam broke the first commandment by disobeying God.

Exd 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

He put himself above God.
 

fivesense

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He coveted something that was not his from his wife. His wife took and eat something that was not hers to take and eat so thus she was stealing and he was in possession of stolen property. But if you think about it Adam broke the first commandment by disobeying God.

Exd 20:3 ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

He put himself above God.

The Ten Commandments and the Law were meditorially prescribed. Adam had no such mediator. His communion with God was based One on one. His disobedience was a knowledgable transgression of a direct command, besides being an offense against Him. With the departure and eviction of Adam and the race from Paradise, the sin of" "transgression" ceased, and sin became offenses attributable to mankind which began to accumulate. God no longer dwelt with men to hold them to account, as He did with Adam.

At Sinai, Moses was the first in a line of mediators being instituted by God to unfold His plan of salvation, starting with the Jews. At that point, with the introduction of Law and ordinances, sin was once again made transgression against the known will of God. This is what brings about His wrath, known transgression of His commandments, as revealed by His mediators.

Adam was no recipient of any Ten Commandments. His injunctions were direct and face to face. Where the Lord is, there is judgment. Where no law is there is no transgression. He, Christ, was given up for our offenses, not our transgressions. Israel alone is accountable for that demonstration.

fivesense
 

gregg

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The Ten Commandments and the Law were meditorially prescribed. Adam had no such mediator. His communion with God was based One on one. His disobedience was a knowledgable transgression of a direct command, besides being an offense against Him. With the departure and eviction of Adam and the race from Paradise, the sin of" "transgression" ceased, and sin became offenses attributable to mankind which began to accumulate. God no longer dwelt with men to hold them to account, as He did with Adam.

At Sinai, Moses was the first in a line of mediators being instituted by God to unfold His plan of salvation, starting with the Jews. At that point, with the introduction of Law and ordinances, sin was once again made transgression against the known will of God. This is what brings about His wrath, known transgression of His commandments, as revealed by His mediators.

Adam was no recipient of any Ten Commandments. His injunctions were direct and face to face. Where the Lord is, there is judgment. Where no law is there is no transgression. He, Christ, was given up for our offenses, not our transgressions. Israel alone is accountable for that demonstration.

fivesense
:rolleyes: where do you find Christ was given up for our offenses, not our transgressions? :unsure:
 

RND

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The Ten Commandments and the Law were meditorially prescribed. Adam had no such mediator. His communion with God was based One on one. His disobedience was a knowledgable transgression of a direct command, besides being an offense against Him. With the departure and eviction of Adam and the race from Paradise, the sin of" "transgression" ceased, and sin became offenses attributable to mankind which began to accumulate. God no longer dwelt with men to hold them to account, as He did with Adam.
Ummm, God has always held mankind responsible for their sin because sin leads to death. It is obvious throughout Genesis that all ten of God's commandments were broken and those that broken His law were held accountable.

At Sinai, Moses was the first in a line of mediators being instituted by God to unfold His plan of salvation, starting with the Jews. At that point, with the introduction of Law and ordinances, sin was once again made transgression against the known will of God. This is what brings about His wrath, known transgression of His commandments, as revealed by His mediators.
Sin has always been the transgression against God's will.

Adam was no recipient of any Ten Commandments.
Sure he was and he passed these on to his children.

His injunctions were direct and face to face.
Then you must be suggesting that God could have easily informed Adam of His commandments verbally.

Where the Lord is, there is judgment. Where no law is there is no transgression.
It is clear that Adam sinned and transgressed God's law.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


He, Christ, was given up for our offenses, not our transgressions. Israel alone is accountable for that demonstration.
I would disagree. Christ died while we were still sinners.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
 

fivesense

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:rolleyes: where do you find Christ was given up for our offenses, not our transgressions? :unsure:

Right here Gregg
Ro 4:25 Who was delivered for our (paraptomata) offences, and was raised again for our justification.


2C 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their (paraptomata)trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

Ga 3:19 . Why, then, the law? on account of the (parabaseon) transgressions it was added, till the seed might come to which the promise hath been made, having been set in order through messengers in the hand of a mediator-

Ro 2:23 thou who in the law dost boast, through the (parabaseon) transgression of the law God dost thou dishonour?

Ro 4:15 for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither is (parabaseon) transgression.

Ro 5:14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's (parabaseon) transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

It can be seen that offenses and transgressions are not the same words in the original Greek, and the precise language that God chose to reveal Himself through
was for a reason. Transgressions or parabaseon are always connected to the violating of God's command where He has spoken directly to men. Almost all mention is connected to the Jew and the Law. Adam is considered a transgressor, or more so Eve in act and fact (1tim 2:14)

All are guilty of offenses against God, Israel is guilty of both offense and transgression by reason of the messengers He gave them (see second verse posted) as mediators. The nations had no such mediators ever. Until Christ came and was rejected by His own, we had no access to God or His promises. Paul, our priest and apostle, made know the secret of the Body and election after the Twelve were rejected by the Jews.

fivesense
 

fivesense

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Ummm, God has always held mankind responsible for their sin because sin leads to death. It is obvious throughout Genesis that all ten of God's commandments were broken and those that broken His law were held accountable.

Sin has always been the transgression against God's will.
Sure he was and he passed these on to his children.
Then you must be suggesting that God could have easily informed Adam of His commandments verbally.
It is clear that Adam sinned and transgressed God's law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
I would disagree. Christ died while we were still sinners.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Death and sin are inextricable, you can't have one without the other, not in this life. It is two sides of the same coin.
I have never read in Scripture that holds man responsible for their sins. Accountable? Yes; Responsible? That I have never read.
Ten command cannot be followed if ten commands were never issued. Sinai is the point of origin for God's Law, not at any time before. Simple logic dictates as much.
I would suggest that you re-read my post, RND, in fairness to me, and review my points without going into disagreement mode right away. You supply no scriptural basis for disagreeing with me, and that helps no one, including those who may be perchancing upon salvation. If I am wrong, show me where, don't just assume your disagreement settles the matters of truth. It is based upon intelligence, sobriety, sanity, and humility, the movement of God's Holy Spirit in a believer. Not the simple kneejerk response or opinion that is cherished.

I also refer you to Gregg's post and my response today, it may further aid you in understanding my position, as well as clarifying what a transgression is.
Ro 4:25 Who was delivered for our (paraptomata) offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Jesus Christ was indeed given up for our offenses, and disagreeing with God is not fruitful.
Offenses offend God, and even sins of ignorance, sins of ommission, are all offensive to God. But, unless He has spoken to you like He did with Adam, in the cool of the day, and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai through Moses, and even face to face once more with the whole of Jerusalem and nearby locales in His earthly body, the act of transgressing against God is not possible. Not in the Scriptures anyway.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Well then, if the death reigns over them that had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's (not theirs) transgression, what sin did they sin? Why do you suppose Holy Spirit distinguishes between sin and transgression? Because transgression only applied to Adam, no one else, and not until Moses did transgression become a fact once more. This is easily seen here, unless there is insufficient light.

fivesense
 

RND

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Death and sin are inextricable, you can't have one without the other, not in this life. It is two sides of the same coin.
I have never read in Scripture that holds man responsible for their sins. Accountable? Yes; Responsible? That I have never read.
Are you sure you want to play a game of semantics?

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ten command cannot be followed if ten commands were never issued. Sinai is the point of origin for God's Law, not at any time before. Simple logic dictates as much.
Read Genesis 26:5. What are the charges, commandments, statutes, and laws that Abraham obeyed and is it possible to obey something you've never been told about?

I would suggest that you re-read my post, RND, in fairness to me, and review my points without going into disagreement mode right away. You supply no scriptural basis for disagreeing with me, and that helps no one, including those who may be perchancing upon salvation. If I am wrong, show me where, don't just assume your disagreement settles the matters of truth. It is based upon intelligence, sobriety, sanity, and humility, the movement of God's Holy Spirit in a believer. Not the simple kneejerk response or opinion that is cherished.
I merely replied to the things Adam did per the question you asked. It is more than obvious that the Ten Commandments were broken in the first few pages of the Bible and as a result some sort of punishment was handed down.

I also refer you to Gregg's post and my response today, it may further aid you in understanding my position, as well as clarifying what a transgression is.
Ro 4:25 Who was delivered for our (paraptomata) offences, and was raised again for our justification.
You seem to love to split hairs. Transgressions and offenses are the same thing.

paraptomata -
1) to fall beside or near something

2) a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness

a) a sin, misdeed

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Jesus Christ was indeed given up for our offenses, and disagreeing with God is not fruitful.
Splitting hairs is also unprofitable.

Offenses offend God, and even sins of ignorance, sins of ommission, are all offensive to God. But, unless He has spoken to you like He did with Adam, in the cool of the day, and the Children of Israel at Mount Sinai through Moses, and even face to face once more with the whole of Jerusalem and nearby locales in His earthly body, the act of transgressing against God is not possible. Not in the Scriptures anyway.
That's simply not true! Since you like to quote Paul try this:

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Well then, if the death reigns over them that had not sinned in the likeness of Adam's (not theirs) transgression, what sin did they sin?
The point being is that the sin of Adam was different than the sin of Eve and my sins are different than those of Adam. And yet those sins can be encapsulated within the ten.

Why do you suppose Holy Spirit distinguishes between sin and transgression?
It doesn't. Sin is transgression.

Because transgression only applied to Adam, no one else, and not until Moses did transgression become a fact once more. This is easily seen here, unless there is insufficient light.
If there was no transgression then there would be to punishment for it. And yet this is exactly what we see in the pages of the OT. Otherwise how could Joseph know that sleeping around was sin if he didn't know of sin?
 

Guestman

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Again with the historical revisionism and the racist hatred. You have stated NOTHING that disagrees with the HISTORICAL fact that hostilities began in Manchuria in 1931 and escalated to full scale war in 1937 (a full two years ahead of the European war). The year 1937 also saw unrestrained human atrocities against the Chinese people by the Japanese army. Where is your scenario of church involvement in that? It is not there, because it never existed.

It never existed in Asia, in the Pacific basin, in Europe, or in Russia.

There was no church involvement in the arming of the Soviet Red Army and there was no involvment in the arming of the Spanish Fascist dictatorship, the German dictatorship or of Mussolini's Italy. Which cathedral served as an arms factory? Which group of priests and ministers trained troops for the front?

Tell us if you know. So far you have artfully dodged that line of documentation. In order to prove Church involvement at the level you insist you MUST prove physical, militaristic, armed involvement.

Are you perhaps fussing over the fact that there were church collaborators in Europe? Indeed there were. They betrayed other priests and ministers, they betrayed their own flock and they betrayed the Jews (whose brothers and sisters we are). Shall these miscreants stand as an example of Christians behavior or shall they be judged as the criminals and traitors they were? Indeed, history has already judged them for their actions, but they never represented the body, the work, and the nature of the gospel. It is the same as pretending to examine the history of those terrible years, all the time denying the entire global pattern and the true cause of it. Atheism. Dehumanising, racist, self-absorbed, murderous atheism.

In point of fact there were a number of Christian organizations that either openly or quietly opposed the NAZI regime. They worked as an underground railroad to get Jews and political enemies of the Reich out of central Europe, they worked to oppose the policies of Hitler's Germany and they suffered for their involvment by means of arrest, detention and death in the same concentration camps as everyone else that the Facists disagreed with. The same was true for those who worked to oppose the inhuman treatments of the Imperial Japanese Army.

I find absolutely no acknowledgement by you of any of these matters, which are documented historical fact. Instead I find obscure hate dialog with regard to the church, with regard to the Chinese people and with regard to the actual material fact of the beginning and ending of the conflict of the mid-twentieth century known as WWII. Your inaccuries with regard to WWI are similar. Without going into a detailed account of nations, organizations and dates involved in the earlier war, I am convinced that you would oppose any factual knowledge contrary to your bigoted attitude.

You say you are Christian. So be it. That is a matter between you and God. The noises you make, however, echo of racism, religious bigotry, historical revisionism and reek of atheistic sympathies.

Hostilities between Japan and China did begin on September 19, 1931 with the invasion of Manchuria by Japan, but this never escalated into a global war. However, with the invasion of Poland by Germany, this escalated into a global conflict and by Germany that professed to be Christian, Catholic and Lutheran, beginning WWII. Hitler had been planning for this since having taken office on January 30th, 1933. On the Web site, The History Place, under the title "The Rise of Adolf Hitler", it stated: "Within weeks (of Hitler taking office), Hitler would be absolute dictator of Germany and would set in motion a chain of events resulting in the Second World War and the eventual deaths of nearly 50 million humans through that war and through deliberate extermination."

Thus, in the midst of Christendom, began the greatest carnage the world had ever seen up to that time. On February 11, 1929, the Vatican signed a pact with Benito Mussolini and Italy, called the Lateran Treaty and making Vatican City a sovereign state. Pope Pius XI further encouraged priests to support the Facists, with the Pope speaking of Mussolini as "a man sent by Providence" and claimed that he had “given Italy back to God, and God back to Italy.” To establish or maintain the position of the Church, he fostered and concluded a record number of concordats including the Reichskonkordat with Germany on July 20, 1933 through Secretary of State Eugene Pacelli (who became the next pope in 1939, Pope Pius XII ) and Vice Chancellor of Germany Franz Von Papen.

Since most of the Nazi's chief leardership were overwhelmingly Catholic, "the Papacy pushed decisive support through the Catholic Centrist and Conservative Parties into backing Hitler as Chancellor. Hitler was quick to pay back this key support when upon coming to power."(Wikipedia) Thus, with the Vatican's blessing and support, Hitler was able to rise to power and begin the most devastating war until that time.

In his book Satan in Top Hat (1941), Tibor Koeves wrote of this, stating: “The Concordat was a great victory for Hitler. It gave him the first moral support he had received from the outer world, and this from the most exalted source.” This therefore, lays at the feet of the Vatican, the responsibility of, in effect, starting WWII, for had Hitler not received such "moral support", he would, in all likelyhood, failed to ascend to the powerful position he attained and start WWII, resulting in the slaughter of an estimated 55 million people.

Jesus laid at the feet of the religious leaders of his day, the "blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar."(Matt 23:35) Though not having physically been there at the time of Abel and Zechariah's death, these religious leaders displayed the same murderous attitude as their forefathers and were "part and parcel" with the wicked "world", of which true Christians are to be "no part of."(John 15:19)

The same is true of the churches, such as the Roman Catholic Church, "with whom the kings of the earth (political elements) committed (both physical and spiritual) fornication."(Rev 17:2) As a result, God will called them to account (as part of the worldwide false religious empire, Babylon the Great), for Revelation 17:16 says that "the ten horns (the world's governments in these "last days") whom you saw, and the wild beast (Satan's entire political system), these will hate the harlot and will make her devastated and naked, and will eat up her fleshy parts and will completely burn her with fire."

The one true religion has followed the prophetic statement found at Isaiah 2:4: "And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." That is why Jehovah's Witnesses are politically neutral, for they have adhered to this prophecy and are "no part of the world" as Jesus commanded his followers (John 18:36), not having "committed fornication" with "the kings of the earth."