The Bible and The American Revolution

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Scoot

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Hi,

I know that this could spark a passionate debate - and my purpose isn't to create disagreement - but genuinely wanting to see different (and respectable) perspectives on where the bible, and us as Christians fit within this viewpoint.

Even if we disagree strongly - can you please keep this civil - I'm here genuinely wanting to have my thoughts challenged and to learn from this - not to try and prove a point.

My question is: Does the bible support Christian involvement in things such as The American Revolution, or does it restrict against it, or is it silent?

For me - I am passionate about freedom and those who fight for freedom. What I know (which is limited) about America's past - I like a lot of what I see with patriots and passion for freedom, and I envy the freedom and the constitution that American's have.

But when I look at things from a biblical perspective I struggle to see how my thoughts and logic fit with scripture. In fact - it seems as though my opinions and thoughts are at odds with God's in this.

I'm not looking for scriptures to justify my thoughts - but rather trying to figure out where my thoughts are wrong and where I need to have a change of mind (or not).

I know American's are far more patriotic than the rest of us and I look forward to hearing thoughts on this - from a biblical / scriptural point. (Please try and keep it scriptual based for this particular thread (as well as respectful) - I know I can justify almost anything with logic - but I'm trying to view this solely from scripture at the moment.
 

farouk

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Hi,

I know that this could spark a passionate debate - and my purpose isn't to create disagreement - but genuinely wanting to see different (and respectable) perspectives on where the bible, and us as Christians fit within this viewpoint.

Even if we disagree strongly - can you please keep this civil - I'm here genuinely wanting to have my thoughts challenged and to learn from this - not to try and prove a point.

My question is: Does the bible support Christian involvement in things such as The American Revolution, or does it restrict against it, or is it silent?

For me - I am passionate about freedom and those who fight for freedom. What I know (which is limited) about America's past - I like a lot of what I see with patriots and passion for freedom, and I envy the freedom and the constitution that American's have.

But when I look at things from a biblical perspective I struggle to see how my thoughts and logic fit with scripture. In fact - it seems as though my opinions and thoughts are at odds with God's in this.

I'm not looking for scriptures to justify my thoughts - but rather trying to figure out where my thoughts are wrong and where I need to have a change of mind (or not).

I know American's are far more patriotic than the rest of us and I look forward to hearing thoughts on this - from a biblical / scriptural point. (Please try and keep it scriptual based for this particular thread (as well as respectful) - I know I can justify almost anything with logic - but I'm trying to view this solely from scripture at the moment.
I suppose another question which could be asked is, Whether the Botany Bay originals were heroes?

In the Old Testament there were things that made ppl look back to for wisdom. Some things that had previously happened and did not turn out well were also instructive. What the believer can do is look at the past in the spirit of Hebrews 11 and select those people and events that indeed do serve as an example.
 

Scoot

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As the thread creator, you have not begun with scripture. Do you mind presenting some scripture relevant to your point? This will be a great kick-start for upholding the type of thread you want to have.

I'm not so much making a point than asking a question. From what I'm seeing, nowhere in the new testament do I see Christians called to war or rebel against their government. My limited understanding is that some of Christ's followers were expecting him to establish His kingdom and kick out Rome, but Christ was focused solely on His kingdom that is not of this world and had little to say about Rome and their occupation of Jerusalem at that time.

My problem is that I am thankful for America's history. I suspect much of the west has freedom's because of America's example and I appreciate the 2nd amendment (in that the government's idea was to make the government accountable by the people). There is much we can learn from history - and my logic tells me that it was good for America to be free. But I know that I can justify all actions or all my ways seem right to me (Prov 14:12) - and just something I've been wondering about - whether or not my logic is actually anti-God in this matter and I have things I need to deal with to get my thoughts to align more with God's - especially in this area.
 
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Candidus

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I'm not so much making a point than asking a question. From what I'm seeing, nowhere in the new testament do I see Christians called to war or rebel against their government. My limited understanding is that some of Christ's followers were expecting him to establish His kingdom and kick out Rome, but Christ was focused solely on His kingdom that is not of this world and had little to say about Rome and their occupation of Jerusalem at that time.

My problem is that I am thankful for America's history. I suspect much of the west has freedom's because of America's example and I appreciate the 2nd amendment (in that the government's idea was to make the government accountable by the people). There is much we can learn from history - and my logic tells me that it was good for America to be free. But I know that I can justify all actions or all my ways seem right to me (Prov 14:12) - and just something I've been wondering about - whether or not my logic is actually anti-God in this matter and I have things I need to deal with to get my thoughts to align more with God's - especially in this area.

What if....

We know that the Bible tells us to be obedient to the Governing authorities because they are ordained of God. We also have the Biblical principle that if we are to make a choice between obeying man, or obeying God... we are to obey God.

I believe that the American Revolution was based upon the idea that God wants men to be free, to be rewarded for their own labor. Yet I can see why, historically speaking, it was opposed by many within the Clergy. One example was John Wesley. While he resided in England, he was the father of the American Methodist Movement. He wrote in defense of the King, and rebuked the Americans for their rebellion. Yet, I believe that most of the American Methodists were not ardent Loyalists.

The second example we have is Hitler and Germany. God appointed him according to the Bible... but for what purpose? Imagine if the people, instead of submitting to his evil in the name of being obedient to government authority, stood their ground and stopped this by rebellion and force!

While I see much in Scripture that encourages peace and unity, and obedience to authority, I do not think that God wants an oppressive King that does not believe that individual under their care deserve freedom or liberty to pursue God and their potential destiny, any more than I think that God wanted the German Christians to murder Jews and wage a war of conquest on the world.

Many believe that the Christian should not be involved in politics, that they must be passive and just trust the authority that God elects. While the example of Christ was not to be involved, He had a mission, and it was not political reform. But does that mean that this is not a mission for a Christian? That we cannot be involved in promoting righteous laws? More freedom and liberty? That we are to just sit back and let the world make that decision in the name of God ordaining who He wants to change things?

Personally, while some find the reasoning to be Biblical, I do not see it as rational. Neither do I see it as Biblical to be the world's doormat. The pride of passively suffering for the Lord, is much of the time, just that... Pride!
 
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Scoot

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Hi @Candidus . Thanks for your reply. My logic agree's with you completely and I would argue the same points. The problem however (as I mentioned) is that I know that I can easily justify my own actions with logic - I'm wanting to know what scripture itself says about such things. I suspect if "I think God wants"... I should be able to back that up with scripture - and I'm finding a distinct lack thereof.

This has me questioning - are my thoughts being based more on my experiences, my logic and what I have been taught (through history and otherwise) more than the word? Have I given into "The means justifies the ends" thinking?

Given that the question has been unanswered for a week now - it gives me at least a little reassurance that my initial concern/question wasn't a simple easy answer that I was ignorant about but that this is much deeper than I realise.

I wouldn't think God wants Christians to be murdered and martyred as well - yet the bible talks about much of that happening as lambs to the slaughter so again, maybe what "I think God wants" - and what His word says are two different things.

I do appreciate your reply - but I know I don't need any more logic to justify my thoughts, you're just confirming what I already sway to... I need scripture to show me one way or the other. :)
 
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Candidus

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I'm wanting to know what scripture itself says about such things. I suspect if "I think God wants"... I should be able to back that up with scripture - and I'm finding a distinct lack thereof.
So, if your lived in Nazi Germany in 1942, would it have stalled you to oppose the Nazi Government because you could not find clear Biblical justification?
 

Candidus

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Hi @Candidus . Thanks for your reply. My logic agree's with you completely and I would argue the same points. The problem however (as I mentioned) is that I know that I can easily justify my own actions with logic - I'm wanting to know what scripture itself says about such things. I suspect if "I think God wants"... I should be able to back that up with scripture - and I'm finding a distinct lack thereof.

This has me questioning - are my thoughts being based more on my experiences, my logic and what I have been taught (through history and otherwise) more than the word? Have I given into "The means justifies the ends" thinking?

Given that the question has been unanswered for a week now - it gives me at least a little reassurance that my initial concern/question wasn't a simple easy answer that I was ignorant about but that this is much deeper than I realise.

I wouldn't think God wants Christians to be murdered and martyred as well - yet the bible talks about much of that happening as lambs to the slaughter so again, maybe what "I think God wants" - and what His word says are two different things.

I do appreciate your reply - but I know I don't need any more logic to justify my thoughts, you're just confirming what I already sway to... I need scripture to show me one way or the other. :)
The the Civil War movie "Gods and Generals," we saw how those that fought for the North believed that God was on their side, and those in the South did the same. The distinction is not always as clear as we would like it to be, but sometimes you have to take a side.
 
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Scoot

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So, if your lived in Nazi Germany in 1942, would it have stalled you to oppose the Nazi Government because you could not find clear Biblical justification?

Hi Candidus,

Thanks again for your reply - but I think you're missing what I'm looking for - because my logic agrees with all you write - I believe I would have opposed the Nazi government with my current line of thinking (although none of us really knows how we'd react until we're in those situations).

But as I meditate on this more in God's word - I have to ask myself is my logic and conviction with God, or against God.

I could ask a similar "What if" scenario - what would you tell the Chinese Christians is the right biblical thing for them to do with the oppression that is coming against many including Christians in Chinda? Should they take up whatever arms they have and fight (and try and kill) the tyrants that are over them and revolt, or should they follow the instructions of Titus 3:1 and remain humble and peaceable, and gentle, and keep focused on God regardless of the storm around them?

I'm aware that in WW1 and WW2 - there were those on both sides that believed God was with them too. The problem is when we believe we're fighting in the right (with our logic) and deceive ourselves thinking that God is 'backing us' - as opposed to examining ourselves. I think the more important factor isn't "is God with me" (and my logic) - but rather "am I actually with Him".

I'm reminded that Jesus overcame His enemies not by taking their lives, but by dying for them. Likewise we see in Revelation that the martyrs won not by defeating military, but by dying. That's pretty radical - is that what we're called to do? Have we become too materialistic and focused on this world and the kingdoms of it than His?

When I reconsider the North and the South just now - I've just had a radical thought (that I know will offend, and I don't mean to - I just write transparently) - that I wonder if maybe God wasn't with either. That maybe He was only concerned about His kingdom (which is not of this world) and what would be done in the lives of people on both sides - and those that were fighting on both sides were actually not with Him but doing the devils work - sending many to Hell prematurely and both sides were against God?

In that thought I consider that God is big enough to do what he wants in the nations without needing people to rebel and kill - and that by "us helping God outside of His word with our own logic" we actually mess the situation more. Maybe His perfect plan was desiring Christians to be humble, and seek Him more, and in the end He would overthrow the tyranny not by force and blood - but miraculously Himself with Him being glorified instead of the winners of the war - and that we are worse off as a result by taking things into our own hands?

I believe that He can and will move in any situation, in any government, in any scenario and is not hindered by wars and rulers and is calling us to focus more on His kingdom, to die to self and this world and focus solely on His kingdom?

It's a radical thought - and from one with military history that I respect through my heritage even more so, but these aren't arguments - they're genuine questions and considerations I've been having lately. Do I need to repent of my thoughts?

Coincidentally I woke up this morning and in my daily devotion I've started going through Titus. The first thing I read was Titus 3:1-7 "Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another."

With no one being able to reply in over a week with any scriptural backing at all and our only conversations being backed on our own reasons and justifications - and then the 'coincidental' scripture I read this morning - I'm really beginning to seriously question whether my thoughts have been conditioned by my heritage more than God's word - and I'm more at odds with God on this than I realize - and with that, potentially many Christians in the west.

Again I appreciate your thoughts and the time you've taken out to consider, respond and try to help - but with all kindness and respect this will be my last reply for any 'what if' scenario's, because the Lord knows I don't need any more logic to justify the position I hold - I need God's word to guide me. As such - I'm only interesting in pursuing this further with scriptural discussions on the issue that focus on His will, not our logic.

May God bless you and may you have a safe and enjoyable weekend

Scoot.
 
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Brakelite

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Believing in a sovereign God who rules over the Nations does not necessarily mean He micro manages every election and every rebellion and every war. He doesn't in my opinion establish certain ones on the throne in every situation else such micro managing removed man's free will. However, if the reign or rule of a certain individual doesn't run in harmony with His ultimate purposes God will raise up an army or turn an election in order to remove the offending ruler.
The war of Independence? I do not believe it was God's purpose for the US to be ruled by a king from across the Atlantic. God had a purpose for America which included freedom of religion.... Freedom from Popes and freedom from Kings. A form of democracy that served to protect minorities such as His church in order for Him to develop it to it's potential rather than have it constantly stifled by power crazed potentates.
The question now lies with those of you living under that opportunity. Who is your king? Do you render to God that which is His, because in America you have no excuse not to. Or do you render to the Roman ruler, Caesar and his current crop of descendants that which does not belong to Him? You have that choice also.
 
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Candidus

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Hi Candidus,

Thanks again for your reply - but I think you're missing what I'm looking for - because my logic agrees with all you write - I believe I would have opposed the Nazi government with my current line of thinking (although none of us really knows how we'd react until we're in those situations).

But as I meditate on this more in God's word - I have to ask myself is my logic and conviction with God, or against God.

but with all kindness and respect this will be my last reply for any 'what if' scenario's, because the Lord knows I don't need any more logic to justify the position I hold - I need God's word to guide me. As such - I'm only interesting in pursuing this further with scriptural discussions on the issue that focus on His will, not our logic.

I understand what you are saying, yet we do need to be more than theoretical and apply what we believe that we are reading in Scripture actually applies to real life and situations. It's easy to take a Bible and a concordance and develop a "doctrine" or "principle" by which we will live our lives. Easy answers are not always accurate answers.

One example is to say that Christians cannot be involved in politics because we are "not of this world." That we are to obey the Governing Authorities. So, as in China or Islamic Nations, we are to live by their laws. But, what if their Laws say that it is illegal to be a Christian? Historically, the Nazi's demanded that all Jews self-identify and turn themselves in. Christians were ordered to identify Jews and turn them in. Are we to say that the only Biblical Christians in Nazi Germany were those that turned in Jews? And that those that gave shelter to the Jews were according to Scripture, disobedient, faithless and rebellious sinners that disobeyed God?

It is illegal to evangelize in China; what faithless Christians they must be! In the Early Church, if convicted as a Christian you were thrown to the lions or burned on a Cross to light the arena. So, if you became a Christian, before you dried off from being baptized you had a duty to turn yourself in to be crucified... is that what Paul writes to Titus?

Can we draw a line and make things that "simple"?

May I propose that the bible says that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever? That He is God, and "yesterday" extends to "In the beginning"?

By Biblical example, did God tell the Israelites to just surrender and live in slavery all their lives? Or did He not only encourage self defense and preservation, as well as conquest? What do we make of example after exhaustive example of taking up arms to uphold their faith and honor their God?

Now we come to the example you offer from the New Testament:

Titus 3:1-7 "Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another."

How do we reconcile that the God of the Bible is the same, yesterday, today and forever, with Himself in the New Testament?

In the Old Covenant He established a Kingdom on earth in the Nation of Israel. In the New Covenant, our Kingdom is in Heaven. It is clear that an unchanging God would say that the Kingdom is worth fighting for. That "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven..." So, if God's will is that His kingdom in heaven should be reflected on earth, and this is spoken to Jews who understood the meaning of the history of Israel, what do we make of it?

I could ask a similar "What if" scenario - what would you tell the Chinese Christians is the right biblical thing for them to do with the oppression that is coming against many including Christians in China? Should they take up whatever arms they have and fight (and try and kill) the tyrants that are over them and revolt, or should they follow the instructions of Titus 3:1 and remain humble and peaceable, and gentle, and keep focused on God regardless of the storm around them?

Or should we follow Titus 1 and be real Christians and be subject to the authorities, and if we are in China, turn ourselves in and our underground friends in the Church because Titus tells them to "obey" these authorities?
 
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Candidus

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I'm reminded that Jesus overcame His enemies not by taking their lives, but by dying for them. Likewise we see in Revelation that the martyrs won not by defeating military, but by dying. That's pretty radical - is that what we're called to do?

Jesus came with a specific mission; to be our Sacrifice for sin. His concern was not Rome, or any other oppressive regime. His focus was for us to focus on the next life, while living in this world. To what purpose is dying as a martyr? It is usually translated in our Bibles as "witness." It is certainly not dying as a dumb sheep where no one really knows what they are "witnessing" to!

In that thought I consider that God is big enough to do what he wants in the nations without needing people to rebel and kill

And I would ask, if God is so big, why doesn't He do it? Perhaps He is waiting on us to do something!

For 74 years in the Soviet Union, Christianity was persecuted. No one fought back. Why did it take man to end 74 years of God not solving the problem? We left it alone for 74 years!

It's a radical thought - and from one with military history that I respect through my heritage even more so, but these aren't arguments - they're genuine questions and considerations I've been having lately. Do I need to repent of my thoughts?

We should always seek the will of God and His purpose for us on this earth.

Should we be seeking His heavenly Kingdom? Yes!

Have we become too materialistic and focused on this world and the kingdoms of it than His? For the most part... Yes!

Many people throughout history believed that believers were obligated to bring the Kingdom to this earth where God would come back and Reign for a Thousand years. Most people today are pessimistic about the power of God and His will for the Earth to reflect His kingdom in heaven. Why try? It's all gonna burn anyway!

Is our eschatology the filter by which we interpret what is said? When such a strong presupposition exists, the answer is "yes!"

[God] is calling us to focus more on His kingdom, to die to self and this world and focus solely on His kingdom?

Yes and No! Nowhere in Scripture does He say that we must "die to self." There is no reason to interject something that is a worldly concept into the idea of focusing on His kingdom! The question is, does God will that His kingdom be on earth as it is in heaven?

Coincidentally I woke up this morning and in my daily devotion I've started going through Titus. The first thing I read was Titus 3:1-7 " Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another."

I wanted to come back to this in light of God's will that His kingdom in heaven is to be the same on earth, and the Old Testament examples of His established kingdom on earth in the Old Covenant. Neither are examples of a believer's utter passivity.

Throughout history, very few cultures or Nations have allowed the freedoms many have in America today. I would encourage the reader to evaluate everything that Paul writes to Titus in the light of his day, and our day; both in the light of free people, and those that are not so free.

"Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey,"
We are to obey God rather than men. Yet, where there is no conflict, we are to obey the Laws of the Land. If there is a speed limit sign, I should follow the Law. When they tell me I cannot worship God freely as I choose, I have no obligation to abide by such Laws.

"to be ready for every good work," Would that include evangelism, or even establishing a Christian culture on earth as it is in heaven?

"to speak evil of no one,"
Does such deny Christians the responsibility to tell the truth about someone, or some Leader? Does such a command Pidgeon-hole Christians into never saying anything negative about evil or evil persons?

"to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men."
Does such deny a Christian a right to be a Christian where it is illegal? To not oppose sin and evil? Can a Christian oppose and inequity or sin still be humble?

It is like Islam... they are at war with us, but we are not at war with them (over our beliefs). Yet, does that mean that we are to be totally passive (obedient cowards) in the name of being "peaceable, humble and gentle"? We are not looking for a fight, but if some Regime seeks to enslave us, forcefully convert us, or kill us, do we puff up our pride and say, "I'm a real Christian and my kingdom is in heaven and not on earth! Where do I turn myself in to be liquidated?" Do Christians have to prove their Christian faith by "humbly" submitting to genocide as is currently happening in Islamic countries as we speak?

- I'm really beginning to seriously question whether my thoughts have been conditioned by my heritage more than God's word - and I'm more at odds with God on this than I realize - and with that, potentially many Christians in the west.

No doubt, no matter where one lives and no matter what period in history one has or is living, culture has a strong influence. Just as your culture leads you to believe that you must die to yourself, when Scripture never says such a thing. It leads us to presume upon Scripture and common sense. We cannot totally escape reason and logic when looking at passages in the Bible. Looking at the whole of Scripture, I do not see this a cut and dry as many try to make it. It is a difficult issue that must be balanced by Biblical example and God's will.

One example in the Early Church that I found humbling, and troubling, are the writings of Ignatius. At the time of his writing, it was illegal to be a Christian. Christians were being caught and put to death for sport. Ignatius, taking the word "martyr" or "Witness" to be the equivalent of being put to death for the Faith. It is inspiring to read the focus of his faith being so centered upon what was to be gained in martyrdom, yet so disturbing that he seemed to have such a death wish! He constantly looks forward to the day he is martyred to be liberated from this world! Yet, in his eagerness, he still wanted to evangelize, and to encourage believers to not lose faith and to be obedient to the end. Even with his strange obsession to be martyred, he never went outside and flaunted himself to be arrested and put to death. "Yoooo-Hooooo! I'm over here! I want to be a martyr for Jesus!"

He did not live in a free society. I agree with his focus on the Kingdom in heaven, and Christians at the time were utterly incapable of opposing it at that time. Yet, if they needed to gather a capable force to go into where the genocide of Christians were today to protect and stop that evil, I would volunteer. I see nothing inconsistent with acting in defense. I see the world of evil in believer's using the Bible for inaction.

Because no action is happening to protect these Christians, I am reduced to spiritual warfare and prayer; which should be our first and primary means anyway.

If I place myself in time (today) and the place (U.S.A.), it is easy to interpret the exhortation to Titus in the light of a free society, and another thing to apply what was said in a not so free society. As being salt and light in the culture I live in, I see it as a moral obligation or principle to oppose evil, to speak the truth, and to do so with humility, seeking God's will on earth as it is in heaven.
 
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kcnalp

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No matter where a Christian is, God is there to help. And so we pray:

Matthew 6:13 (NKJV)
13 Deliver us from the evil one.

Does God answer our prayers? Why would I want to send someone to Hell to save my life? I would rather die and be with Jesus than kill one of Satan's children sending him to Hell.

And then there's this: Matthew 5:39 (NKJV)
39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Hi,

I know that this could spark a passionate debate - and my purpose isn't to create disagreement - but genuinely wanting to see different (and respectable) perspectives on where the bible, and us as Christians fit within this viewpoint.

Even if we disagree strongly - can you please keep this civil - I'm here genuinely wanting to have my thoughts challenged and to learn from this - not to try and prove a point.

My question is: Does the bible support Christian involvement in things such as The American Revolution, or does it restrict against it, or is it silent?

For me - I am passionate about freedom and those who fight for freedom. What I know (which is limited) about America's past - I like a lot of what I see with patriots and passion for freedom, and I envy the freedom and the constitution that American's have.

But when I look at things from a biblical perspective I struggle to see how my thoughts and logic fit with scripture. In fact - it seems as though my opinions and thoughts are at odds with God's in this.

I'm not looking for scriptures to justify my thoughts - but rather trying to figure out where my thoughts are wrong and where I need to have a change of mind (or not).

I know American's are far more patriotic than the rest of us and I look forward to hearing thoughts on this - from a biblical / scriptural point. (Please try and keep it scriptual based for this particular thread (as well as respectful) - I know I can justify almost anything with logic - but I'm trying to view this solely from scripture at the moment.

The biblical answer is no the bible does not support the american REvolution!

Scriptures:

Romans 13
King James Version

13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.


Matt. 17:

24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

1 Peter 2:17-19
King James Version

17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.


As Christians we are not to rebel against kings because of overtaxing, lack of full representation, or quartering soldiers. We have a right to appeal to the government but not to overthrow the governement.

American was born in sin.
 
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bbyrd009

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Hi,

I know that this could spark a passionate debate - and my purpose isn't to create disagreement - but genuinely wanting to see different (and respectable) perspectives on where the bible, and us as Christians fit within this viewpoint.

Even if we disagree strongly - can you please keep this civil - I'm here genuinely wanting to have my thoughts challenged and to learn from this - not to try and prove a point.

My question is: Does the bible support Christian involvement in things such as The American Revolution, or does it restrict against it, or is it silent?

For me - I am passionate about freedom and those who fight for freedom. What I know (which is limited) about America's past - I like a lot of what I see with patriots and passion for freedom, and I envy the freedom and the constitution that American's have.

But when I look at things from a biblical perspective I struggle to see how my thoughts and logic fit with scripture. In fact - it seems as though my opinions and thoughts are at odds with God's in this.

I'm not looking for scriptures to justify my thoughts - but rather trying to figure out where my thoughts are wrong and where I need to have a change of mind (or not).

I know American's are far more patriotic than the rest of us and I look forward to hearing thoughts on this - from a biblical / scriptural point. (Please try and keep it scriptual based for this particular thread (as well as respectful) - I know I can justify almost anything with logic - but I'm trying to view this solely from scripture at the moment.
i would ask whether you consider yourself an Australian, or a Christian? Bc you cant "serve" two masters, right?
 
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Scoot

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Thanks to all who have replied!

Candidus - I'll limit my response to focus on your scriptual points to keep this shorter (and focused on where I want to look)...

By Biblical example, did God tell the Israelites to just surrender and live in slavery all their lives? Or did He not only encourage self defense and preservation, as well as conquest? What do we make of example after exhaustive example of taking up arms to uphold their faith and honor their God?

Good question - with one exception. You're talking about a nation - not people within that nation. (And even in that context - yes... there were times that God told them not to fight an invading nation such as with Babylon. People used 'common sense' instead of listening to God through Jeremiah in those instances and it didn't end well). That's why I'm questioning my own 'common sense' at the moment as I see it seeming to disagree with scripture.

With this in mind - are you able to show me in scripture where God told Israel to rebel and kill their governing rulers? (There is a difference between national defense, and uprising within, and for this topic I'm focusing solely on the latter.) I'm struggling to recall if this ever occurred righteously in scripture.

The only instances I can think of when Israel was living under another external authority - but then God Himself provided the relief (such as in the books of Exodus, or Daniel). Even David - where it would have seemed to be the right thing to do, get rid of a ruler (Saul) who was against God in the end held his sword from striking one over him - allowing God to deliver.

Or should we follow Titus 1 and be real Christians and be subject to the authorities, and if we are in China, turn ourselves in and our underground friends in the Church because Titus tells them to "obey" these authorities?

I think you've turned the China situation around from them rising up and killing those who rule over them, to "turning in" Christians. I think all would agree that we don't need to obey authorities when they tell us to do something that is against God's commandments - but my question wasn't about turning people in - it was "Do you believe Christians in China should rebel and kill their Chinese government?" as the Americans turned against their rulers in the Revolution? That would be more parallel to the American revolution. (And even more so - if the American revolution was righteous in your eyes, wouldn't the call to Christians in China to do the same now even be moreso, considering that their rulers and oppression seems to be more anti-God than England was with the revolution?)


Nowhere in Scripture does He say that we must "die to self." There is no reason to interject something that is a worldly concept into the idea of focusing on His kingdom!

Just some verses:

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

It's my understanding that "dying to self" is a worldly concept at all - in fact quite the opposite. That focusing on His kingdom is denying self for His sake.

"Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey," We are to obey God rather than men.

I believe your statement does not nullify that scripture. Rather I believe the only correct way of interpreting that scripture is for it to complement other scriptures.

As such - we are to obey both - with God being first and foremost when conflicts arise. "Obeying God rather than men" does not nullify any of those other scriptures - it only places a caveat that we obey God when conflict arises.

So whilst taking this to the subjection on the American revolution (which I am trying to learn about) - can you show me where the revolution was caused because the English were telling Americans to go against God? Or where you see scripture commanding Christians to revolt?

One example in the Early Church that I found humbling, and troubling, are the writings of Ignatius. At the time of his writing, it was illegal to be a Christian. Christians were being caught and put to death for sport. Ignatius, taking the word "martyr" or "Witness" to be the equivalent of being put to death for the Faith. It is inspiring to read the focus of his faith being so centered upon what was to be gained in martyrdom, yet so disturbing that he seemed to have such a death wish! He constantly looks forward to the day he is martyred to be liberated from this world! Yet, in his eagerness, he still wanted to evangelize, and to encourage believers to not lose faith and to be obedient to the end. Even with his strange obsession to be martyred, he never went outside and flaunted himself to be arrested and put to death. "Yoooo-Hooooo! I'm over here! I want to be a martyr for Jesus!"

He did not live in a free society. I agree with his focus on the Kingdom in heaven, and Christians at the time were utterly incapable of opposing it at that time. Yet, if they needed to gather a capable force to go into where the genocide of Christians were today to protect and stop that evil, I would volunteer. I see nothing inconsistent with acting in defense. I see the world of evil in believer's using the Bible for inaction.

Again my thoughts, logic and compassion agrees with you - but I believe we're talking about two different issues now. The question was about rebelling against our authority - in particular the American Revolution, not about fighting those who are involved in genocide. And not a matter of waving your hands and inviting persecution.

It's been very interesting conversing with you Candice, because I see my own thoughts in many of the points that you make. The challenge that I have been having with myself of late though is whether those thoughts of mine line up with God's word - or whether I'm attempting to justify my thoughts by logic and history in a certain way instead of hearing what God is telling us directly. I end up putting my logic (which is mostly logic and not scripture, or using scripture loosely) and it's coming up against direct scripture which tells the opposite. I can't help but question my logic and arguments in that light, which was what prompted this thread to start with...

No matter where a Christian is, God is there to help. And so we pray:

Matthew 6:13 (NKJV)
13 Deliver us from the evil one.

Does God answer our prayers? Why would I want to send someone to Hell to save my life? I would rather die and be with Jesus than kill a one of Satan's children sending him to Hell.

And then there's this: Matthew 5:39 (NKJV)
39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person.

Thank you kcnalp. It's direct verses like these that I've been searching for (but to support things such as the American revolution). I guess the reason I can't find them - is because they don't exist - because the concept I've been looking for is not of God, and I've been deceiving myself. It tis a bitter pill to swallow!



The biblical answer is no the bible does not support the american REvolution!

Scriptures:

<snip>

As Christians we are not to rebel against kings because of overtaxing, lack of full representation, or quartering soldiers. We have a right to appeal to the government but not to overthrow the governement.

American was born in sin.

Thank you @Ronald Nolette. This has been my suspicion but it has been hard for me to swallow. The "America was born in sin" quote is a very hard hitting thought (and probably offensive to many as even I not being an American but have loved their history felt the blow). I am taking that thought very seriously.

I love their constitution and their freedom and it's very hard for me to accept the foundation of America which I believe has been a beacon of freedom to the rest of the world in this way - but I am beginning to see more that scripture is stacking up against me and my logic. Thank you for sharing!

i would ask whether you consider yourself an Australian, or a Christian? Bc you cant "serve" two masters, right?

Great thought, but would like clarification please. I could see this as being a Christian means to ignore the Australian government because I follow God - or to obey them them because I follow God.

My initial thought is that the point you're making is that being a Christian living in Australia - I am to submit to the Australian Government (unless they directly instruct us to go against God or His word), but just wanted to clarify. :)

Again, thanks to all for your patience with me, and the time you have taken out of your days to post your replies!
 
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bbyrd009

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Great thought, but would like clarification please. I could see this as being a Christian means to ignore the Australian government because I follow God - or to obey them them because I follow God.
yes, i would do either, according to your convictions, i guess
 

Candidus

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"Do you believe Christians in China should rebel and kill their Chinese government?" as the Americans turned against their rulers in the Revolution?
Yes! It would be even more "just" than the American Revolution. The one factor that I believe is being ignored is the concept of "justice." Yes, it is a messy thing, as I gave the example from the Civil War. Simplistic answers are rarely answers that meet with real life.

I would be comfortable "leaving well enough alone" as long as someone or some Government is not going out of their way to be unjust in their dealing with me.

So whilst taking this to the subjection on the American revolution (which I am trying to learn about) - can you show me where the revolution was caused because the English were telling Americans to go against God? Or where you see scripture commanding Christians to revolt?
No, I cannot. The issue was "justice." Can you say that it is God's will that Christians be slaves or an oppressed class that is not allowed to better their lot in life?

Do you believe that the American Experiment and Democracy has been an evil in this world? That the freedoms and liberty (while allowing even evil to be free) has proven itself worse than other autocratic forms of Government? That God's hand has not been upon this Country? I am speaking of the results, pragmatically speaking. If it was against God's will, how do we explain its existence and popularity among those of faith?
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Matt 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

It's my understanding that "dying to self" is a worldly concept at all - in fact quite the opposite. That focusing on His kingdom is denying self for His sake.

But the majority of Christians apply a Buddhist understanding to these verses rather that what they actually say. Seeking "nothing-ness" or "irrelevance" is not what Jesus is saying. God must be first, and as His creation, His children, His will comes first. A child that is obedient to their parents does not have to be self-loathing, hating every moment as they struggle to do what their parents desire. If this is what a "Christian" feels, they should stop trying to be a Buddhist and seek the Lord until they are Born-Again.
 
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Candidus

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I'll limit my response to focus on your scriptual points to keep this shorter (and focused on where I want to look)...
And do you look to the Scriptural examples of where our Eternal God, yesterday, today and forever that commanded His people to take up arms to gain land, and to defend their life and protect their beliefs in God?

Does this Scripture factor into what God intends?
 

Candidus

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And then there's this: Matthew 5:39 (NKJV)
39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person.
So, Christians should welcome, and not resist when someone shoots up a Church during Sunday Morning Services.... Hmmmmm.

Is there any room for the concept of justice and righteousness?
 
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