Church To Stay On Earth

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Ronald Nolette

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OK, I think I understand!

I see the differences, one before and one after Jesus sits on His throne, one of a single group, one of a mixed group, the names for each matching the cultural references of the time. I see one being a known group - the elect. The other is an unknown mixture - Jesus separates them. They don't know why they are separated so.

Joel 3
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Of course, "plead with them" should be understood as a judge entering a judgment.

Here in Joel is the same thing, a restoration of Israel to their land, and the gathering of the nations for judgment.

Much love!

Hi MArks! YOu are 99.9% of the way there!

Remember that the tribulation period (all seven years) is a time where God prepares Israel to receive Jesus as SAvior!

The major focus of the tribulation period is Israel! They are the elect in Matt. 24 and teh brethren in Matthew. 25. Remember to keep this in context and the context is God dealing with Israel. The church is never mentioned.

So the gathering of the elect is the gathering of saved Israel (the 1/3)of Zechariah13:

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

As a matter of fact, it is these 1/3 Jews who get saved and call upon the Lord saying "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord"

Matthew 23:36-39
King James Version

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

that brings about the return of Jesus to earth!
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Like I said, Lord Jesus' usage of "brethren" in Matthew 25:40 was not talking about His genealogical brothers or sisters. He was speaking of believers on Him, His Church, for that is what He called those of His Church in Matthew 12...

Matt 12:47-49
47 Then one said unto Him, "Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with Thee.

48 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, "Who is My mother? and who are My brethren?"

49 And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!"
KJV

Incorrect.

show from some biblical authority that Jesus using the term brethren in this passage binds Him to this meaning everytime He uses the term

YOu do nto do such trhings with words- forcing them for teh rest of time to just one possible meaning, so why do you try to force Jesus to do what you do not?
 

Davy

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You had said . . .



You declared that his spirit was seeing this, not his flesh, that this supports the idea that all men have a flesh and spirit body, and that the flesh body would fall away to reveal the spirit body.

That the flesh body would fall away to reveal the spirit body, what kind of idea is that??

When the flesh body DIES, or is CHANGED at the "last trump", that is when the flesh is cast off (Ecclesiastes 12:5-7; 1 Corinthians 15:44-54). The fall away idea in God's Word is about spiritual deception, not death and the resurrection.

I'm saying not even Paul would make such a declaration when someone he knew was taken into heaven. So how are you so certain?

Uh, really? Paul is declaring that very thing in 2 Corinthians 12, that that one saw into Paradise. Why won't you accept the Scripture as written? Apostle Paul is most likely speaking of himself, being modest, because he was once stoned and left for dead (Acts 14:19). That event coupled with his witness in 2 Corinthians 12 suggests he had a near death experience (NDE).

Acts 14:19
19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.
KJV



Again, what I read is that the flesh body is transformed, not removed, and that we are dead spiritually until rebirth, and that is when we begin living in the heavenly realm.

Well, if that tradition of men helps you understand, fine. But that's not what God's Word reveals in 2 Corinthians 5, nor in John 3 by our Lord Jesus when He said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. Nor does it agree with the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 Scripture which makes a clear distinction between the flesh going back to one place, and our spirit (with soul per Matt.10:28) going back to another (to God).
 
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Davy

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I get the idea simply from the passage itself.

If the sheep=Jesus' brothers, you have a serious conflict between these two gathering.

Much love!

I've pointed you to the Matthew 12 Scripture where Jesus pointed to His disciples and said those were His "brethren". But evidently you still want to DENY that Scripture.

So please stop bearing false witness against me with lies about conflicts and such, when it's actually you that show a conflict between your thought process and the actual written Scripture.

Matt 12:47-49
47 Then one said unto Him, "Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with Thee.

48 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, "Who is My mother? and who are My brethren?"

49 And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!"
KJV
 

Davy

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YOur error is you conflate the term elect with the church! In reality it would be saved Israel and teh save gentiles from the rapture to teh return of the Lord that are still alive at the end of the trib period.

Also you ignore many other posts that directly point to the church not being in the Tribulation period!.
....

Making up LIES again I see.
 

Davy

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YOu are obsessed with Darby! I have nothing to do with Him.

You are in love with Augustine and His amillenial thought. I can play that game as well.

YOu still need to answer the Scriptures that show the church will not be in teh Tribulation! YOU haven't yet and still just vomit your old Darbymania and calling people liars!

Woo hoo, hullaballoo!

More LIES you're making up, showing you have no intention of following Truth.
 

Davy

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'When the Son of man shall come in His glory,
and all the holy angels with Him,
then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
And before Him shall be gathered all nations:
and He shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth His sheep from the goats:
And He shall set the sheep on His right hand,
but the goats on the left.'

(Mat 25:31-32)

Hello @marks and @Ronald Nolette,

These are NATIONS (Gentiles). There is no resurrection here (so no reference to Revelation 20). This gathering is to be on the earth (Isaiah 34:1-2; Joel 3:1-2; Joel 3:11-12). There are three 'classes' and not two. The test is not 'works', but the treatment of 'brethren' by the other two. No believer, ie., those who 'received the word' (Acts 2:41; 1 Thessalonians 2:13), for these will not yet be 'taken out of the nations'. (Acts 15:14), Israel not gathered here, because, 'not reckoned among the nations' (Numbers 23:9). The church of 'the Mystery' not here, because the reward here is 'from the foundation of the world' (v.34); while the Church was chosen 'before' that (Ephesians 1:4). The 'throne' is that of David (Luke 1:32).

* This was taken from the notes in the margin of my Bible.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Of course they are nations, the Scripture SAYS "nations"! That DOES NOT ALWAYS mean Gentiles! That kind of thinking is a false Jewish stunt.

Christ's sheep = His Church, OF ALL NATIONS, which of course includes Israelite believers! Israel is a nation also. So all that Babylonian Talmud 'goyim' propaganda is just that, false Jew propaganda!


(it's like I've fallen into a movie like Idiocracy here.)
 

charity

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Like I said, Lord Jesus' usage of "brethren" in Matthew 25:40 was not talking about His genealogical brothers or sisters. He was speaking of believers on Him, His Church, for that is what He called those of His Church in Matthew 12...

Matt 12:47-49
47 Then one said unto Him, "Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with Thee.

48 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, "Who is My mother? and who are My brethren?"

49 And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!"
KJV
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Hello @Davy,

With respect you must read the context of both references, then you will see that the reference to brethren in Matthew 25:40 is indeed related to His brethren according to the flesh.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

marks

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I've pointed you to the Matthew 12 Scripture where Jesus pointed to His disciples and said those were His "brethren". But evidently you still want to DENY that Scripture.

So please stop bearing false witness against me with lies about conflicts and such, when it's actually you that show a conflict between your thought process and the actual written Scripture.

Matt 12:47-49
47 Then one said unto Him, "Behold, Thy mother and Thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with Thee.

48 But He answered and said unto him that told Him, "Who is My mother? and who are My brethren?"

49 And He stretched forth His hand toward His disciples, and said, "Behold My mother and My brethren!"

KJV
I believe the context shows the distinction in usage, but even so, all the one's Jesus pointed to where Jewish. I don't think that's key, but there were Jesus' familial brothers, there were Jesus' national brothers, His spiritual brothers, and the context will point us to which one.

There's no need to accuse me of choosing to deny Scripture, there never was.

I'm not telling lies about you . . . and I don't think you are playing very nice. Interesting discussion, but not this way.

Much love!
 

Davy

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And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Hello @Davy,

With respect you must read the context of both references, then you will see that the reference to brethren in Matthew 25:40 is indeed related to His brethren according to the flesh.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sorry, but you have missed... the context there, and it certainly cannot... be determined by that single word "brethren" in verse 40:

Matt 25:34
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

KJV

Who would those in red be, and where was that also said about them by Paul, and to whom was Paul saying it to?

Here Apostle Paul was speaking that idea to the Ephesians...

Eph 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
KJV

... and to the Thessalonians:

2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

... and to Romans:


Rom 9:23-26
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV


You guys simply are not following what is written in God's Word about the matter.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Funny, when you fail to address Matthew 24:29-31, and instead rush to verses after that, showing you have no intention to stick to the Truth.

And your continuation of the sin of presumptiousness in assuming what I think or intend is saddening!

Matthew 24:29-31
King James Version

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


If instead of arrogantly presuming you know what I am or am not doing, you bothered to read many of my posts, you would see I have spoken on thse verses many times! There is nothing there I wish to hide from! The opposite is true!
 

Ronald Nolette

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Woo hoo, hullaballoo!

More LIES you're making up, showing you have no intention of following Truth.

I missed the time Jesus appointed you and gave you these mindreading abilities? Care to fill me in when you got all this power???
 

Ronald Nolette

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Making up LIES again I see.

Can't practice civility and debate Scriptures with Scripture I still see!

YOu can't prove they are lies because they are not!

You can't prove that God doesn't have a plan for the nation of Israel because He does!

YOu can't prove that the tribulation is the wrath of Satan because it isn't!

Your eschatology is just that- Yours and yours alone.

all you can do is shriek "you hoo hullabaloo" and Scream "Darby, Darby Darby" and "dispensational doctors">
 

charity

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Davy's post reply#128
Quote: Charity said in reply#113:-
'When the Son of man shall come in His glory,
and all the holy angels with Him,
then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
And before Him shall be gathered all nations:
and He shall separate them one from another,
as a shepherd divideth His sheep from the goats:
And He shall set the sheep on His right hand,
but the goats on the left.'
(Mat 25:31-32)

Hello @marks and @Ronald Nolette,

These are NATIONS (Gentiles). There is no resurrection here (so no reference to Revelation 20). This gathering is to be on the earth (Isaiah 34:1-2; Joel 3:1-2; Joel 3:11-12). There are three 'classes' and not two. The test is not 'works', but the treatment of 'brethren' by the other two. No believer, ie., those who 'received the word' (Acts 2:41; 1 Thessalonians 2:13), for these will not yet be 'taken out of the nations'. (Acts 15:14), Israel not gathered here, because, 'not reckoned among the nations' (Numbers 23:9). The church of 'the Mystery' not here, because the reward here is 'from the foundation of the world' (v.34); while the Church was chosen 'before' that (Ephesians 1:4). The 'throne' is that of David (Luke 1:32).

* This was taken from the notes in the margin of my Bible.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
End of quote.
-------------------
Davy's reply:-

Of course they are nations, the Scripture SAYS "nations"! That DOES NOT ALWAYS mean Gentiles! That kind of thinking is a false Jewish stunt.

Christ's sheep = His Church, OF ALL NATIONS, which of course includes Israelite believers! Israel is a nation also. So all that Babylonian Talmud 'goyim' propaganda is just that, false Jew propaganda!
' ... lo, the People shall dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations.

(Numbers 23:9b)

Hello @Davy,

Nations foreign to Israel are called GENTILES to differentiate them from Israel: for Israel is never to be reckoned among the nations (Numbers 23:9).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Nancy

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Isaiah 59
20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

Who are their seed? And their seed's seed? What does that mean?

Much love!

Good question Marks. Possibly the seed's seed will be those born during the millennium?
 
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charity

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Sorry, but you have missed... the context there, and it certainly cannot... be determined by that single word "brethren" in verse 40:

Matt 25:34
34 Then shall the King say unto them on His right hand, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

KJV

Who would those in red be?
... and where was that also said about them by Paul, and to whom was Paul saying it to?

Here Apostle Paul was speaking that idea to the Ephesians...
Eph 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
KJV

2 Thess 2:13-14
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
KJV

... and to Romans:


Rom 9:23-26
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV


You guys simply are not following what is written in God's Word about the matter.
You ask:-
- Who would those in red be?
- ... to whom was Paul saying it to?

Hello @Davy,

* Those spoken to by the King with the word highlighted by you (in red) in Matthew 25:34, are the nations on His right hand side, who treated His brethren kindly: they would receive blessing from The Father.

* Those to whom Paul spoke in the verses you have quoted (Ephesians 1:3-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and Romans 9:23-25) are obviously believers from within those assemblies.

* I don't understand what these questions are intended to convey.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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marks

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I would think they are the same people in Rev. 20 and 21, before the judgement seat of God...?
I see the judgment in Matthew 24 to be of the living at the end of the age. I see the judgment in Revelation 20 to be the judgment of the dead at the end of this creation.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Good question Marks. Possibly the seed's seed will be those born during the millennium?
That's what I think. An entire nation of people alive in Christ, giving birth to children alive in Christ.

Much love!
 
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