Bible alone?

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BreadOfLife

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Jesus did not grant authority to the Roman Catholic Church, or any other institution. This doctrine is diabolical. Jesus explicitly tells you that he has been granted all authority in heaven and on earth. The Roman Catholic Church has become a usurper. The Roman Catholic Church represents the deification of the institution. There is only one God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

In Matthew 16, Jesus establishes the apostles as the foundation of church he is building. The corner stone of that foundation is Peter's confession that Jesus is the Christ. This is the essential doctrine and all other doctrines follow from that. Peter has not been given authority to bind and loose. Peter has been granted to understand and disseminate information concerning what has already been bound and loosed. Jesus, not Peter actually holds the keys.
Yes - that's a popular, albeit ignorant, anti-Catholic myth. Peter is the "Rock" in Matt. 16:18.
Allow me to educate you . . .

First of all - his name was "Simon". Jesus changes his name in this verse when he tells him the following:
Matt. 16:18

And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Ummmmm, in case you didn't know - Jesus spoke Aramaic - NOT English, NOT Greek to His Apostles - so the word He used was "Kepha". Kepha doesn't mean "small stone" or "pebble" - -it just means "Rock". What Jesus said to Simon was:
"You are Kepha and on this Kepha, I will build my church ..."

This is why Paul refers to him NOT as "Peter" - but as "Cephas" in his letters, which is a Greek transliteration of the Aramaic "Kepha".

In Matthew 18, Jesus instructs his disciples concerning those who claim to be a "brother." Even here, the task at hand is "identification", answering to the question, "Is this person a brother or not?" What is the purpose of such an investigation? Excommunication? No. Jesus tells Peter that we are to forgive them. He also teaches his disciples to treat a sinner as a "Gentile". But how do we treat Gentiles? We evangelize them.
CLEARLY, you have perverted this passage also. This is absolutely about excommunication or it doesn't make ANY sense.
According to YOUR warped interpretation, Jesus fumbles the instruction by saying:
"Tell your brother his sin.
If he refuses to listen, take 2 or 3 witnesses with you and confront him
If he refuses to listen, tell the church.
If he doesn't listen to the church, that's fine because he is a brother."


That's an idiotic rendering of this passage.
Luke 10:16 describes the role of an Apostle. Here we see that the Apostle is NOT acting on his own authority. Neither is he speaking for himself. Rather, an apostle whom Jesus sends is speaking for Jesus, relaying what Jesus had already taught.

John 16 describes the role of the Apostle in greater detail, adding that the 11 will be accompanied by "the spirit of truth", who will NOT speak on his own initiative. All through John's gospel, Jesus often repeats his claim that he does not speak on his own initiative, but he speaks the things the Father taught him.
John 12:49
For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.


Jesus speaks what the Father taught him; the apostles speak what Jesus taught them. The apostles speak to us in the Bible.
BINGO.

The Apostles/Bishops don't act on their OWN Authority - but on the Authority transferred to them by Christ Himself.
He says this CLEARLY verses 14-15:
John 16:14-15
He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine AND DECLARE IT TO YOU.
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine AND DECLARE IT TO YOU.


I suggest you learn how to READ before you attempt to debate Scripture again . . .
 

theefaith

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John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
 

theefaith

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Without Peter and the apostles and their successors how can you obey Jesus?

matt 29:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 

theefaith

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Jesus gives His authority to Peter and the apostles and their successors!
Matt 28:19

He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

————————-

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.
 

Jane_Doe22

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John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Without Peter and the apostles and their successors how can you obey Jesus?

matt 29:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus gives His authority to Peter and the apostles and their successors!
Matt 28:19

He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

————————-

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

I'm still awaiting an real answer to mine and CadyandZoe's question ---
CadyandZoe and I have both asked you several times: "How do you know that the Catholic church is THE church? How do you know that the Bishop of Rome is an actual Bishop?"

Him claiming it means nothing -- many many of others claim that too. You like to make that comment about thousands of different denominations, but how do you know yours is correct? Tell us about your personal faith development, thoughtful searching, and direct relationship with Christ.

If your only answer is "well, I was born Catholic and they told me Catholic is the right faith and I've never honestly actually studied another view" ... well, I appreciate your honesty. But I would also encourage you to deepen your personal epistemology and testimony.
 

theefaith

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Only one church was founded by Jesus Christ on Peter. Matt 16:18 all others are false sects started men apart from Christ and His authority! There is only one covenant. One body of Christ! One kingdom!

the four marks that you know which is the one true church! Only the Catholic Church can be the one true church founded by Christ on Peter!

one:
Holy:
Catholic:
Apostolic:
 

Jane_Doe22

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Only one church was founded by Jesus Christ on Peter. Matt 16:18 all others are false sects started men apart from Christ and His authority! There is only one covenant. One body of Christ! One kingdom!

the four marks that you know which is the one true church! Only the Catholic Church can be the one true church founded by Christ on Peter!

one:
Holy:
Catholic:
Apostolic:
That's getting closer, but still quite a ways to go.

How do you know that the Catholic church is THE church? How do you know that the Bishop of Rome is an actual Bishop?
Him claiming it means nothing -- many many of others claim that too. You like to make that comment about thousands of different denominations, but how do you know yours is correct? Tell us about your personal faith development, thoughtful searching, and direct relationship with Christ.
 

CadyandZoe

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Yes - that's a popular, albeit ignorant, anti-Catholic myth.
The talk is concerned with whether the Scriptures are adequate for issues of faith and doctrine. You argue from the scriptures, which seems to answer the question in the affirmative.

Your interpretation of Matthew 16:18 lacks substance since you don't actually understand it. You simply repeat what others have told you about the etymology of the name Cephas, which is suppose to justify the idea that the universal church is under the authority of man claiming to be the vicar of Christ. That's quite a big jump. Even if Jesus meant to say that he was going to build his church on Peter, succession does not follow from that.

You never ask or answer why Jesus changed Simon's name to Cephus. What is that all about? Your argument rips the verse out of context, caring little for the words of Jesus coming before and after Matthew 16:18. And perhaps you are unaware of the time when Jesus called Peter "Satan"?

Matthew 16:23
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”


From this we learn that the foundation of Jesus' church isn't a man, but an idea. When Peter has the right ideas, he is the rock. When he has the wrong ideas he is Satan.

, you have perverted this passage also. This is absolutely about excommunication or it doesn't make ANY sense.
I find nothing in the passage to suggest excommunication.

According to YOUR warped interpretation, Jesus fumbles the instruction by saying:
"Tell your brother his sin.
If he refuses to listen, take 2 or 3 witnesses with you and confront him
If he refuses to listen, tell the church.
If he doesn't listen to the church, that's fine because he is a brother."


That's an idiotic rendering of this passage.
Who are you? Adam Schmitt? Your idiotic rendering of the passage was neither spoken nor implied by me.

The Apostles/Bishops don't act on their OWN Authority - but on the Authority transferred to them by Christ Himself.
First of all, an Apostle is not a Bishop. Second, you don't seem to understand Jesus' point. The authority doesn't rest in the messenger; it rests in the message. This is why he was emphatic when he said "I do not speak on my own initiative." This is why he says that the Spirit of truth does not speak on his own initiative. Jesus tells you that he speaks what the Father tells him to speak. And he tells you that the Spirit of truth speaks what Jesus has already spoken. The spoken word, which the Father has spoken, carries the authority.

Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians exhorts his readers to stand on the original message, "even if WE or an angel from heaven were to bring another gospel. If the authority rested in the apostles, Paul could not pen those words. But the authority resides in the teachings of God the Father, and we obey him and his Son Jesus Christ.
 

CadyandZoe

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Without Peter and the apostles and their successors how can you obey Jesus?

matt 29:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
We have Peter and the Apostles in the New Testament.
 

theefaith

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Correct. Jesus sent the 12 and Paul.

with the same mission power and authority so they have authority to send successors! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me I send you, Lk 10:16 he who hears you hears me, we can only hear Jesus they the successors! And we obey
 

theefaith

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We must be taught, not read for yourself and make your own personal faith in a personal covenant me and Jesus


Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors in the church founded in the one true founded by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

————————-

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.
 

Jane_Doe22

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with the same mission power and authority so they have authority to send successors! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me I send you, Lk 10:16 he who hears you hears me, we can only hear Jesus they the successors! And we obey
And HOW do you know that the Catholic Church is those successors?
We must be taught, not read for yourself and make your own personal faith in a personal covenant me and Jesus
I'm sorry that I need to ask this but: @theefaith are you even a Christian?

Please show me SOMETHING of your own faith development and relationship with Christ. Because I'm not seeing any of it right now.
 

theefaith

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I really don’t know what you mean, we are members of Christ by ritual in the new covenant the body of Christ! Not a prayer group!