Bible alone?

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theefaith

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1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
 

Jane_Doe22

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I really don’t know what you mean, we are members of Christ by ritual in the new covenant the body of Christ! Not a prayer group!
A Christian is a disciple of Christ.

Tell me how you follow Christ.
Tell me how you love Christ.
Tell me how you celebrate Christ.
Tell me about your faith in Christ.

Show me that you are not an empty vessel blindly following some mortals, but a thinking intelligent person whom loves Christ and is filled with Him.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
That's not an answer.
 

CadyandZoe

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with the same mission power and authority so they have authority to send successors! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me I send you, Lk 10:16 he who hears you hears me, we can only hear Jesus they the successors! And we obey
Negative. Jesus didn't send the Apostles with authority. He sent them with a message. The message has authority.
 

Jane_Doe22

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that is your privilege.

But Jesus and Paul and even Pauls mandate in Romans says there comes a point where we have to act with disrespect.
Again, I'm going to passionately disagree with that interpretation of things.

I do thank you for sharing your view though.
 

Ronald Nolette

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WOW - what ignorance . . .

Ummmmmm, the Donation of Constantine has NOTHING to do with Irenaeus or his work, Against Heresies, which contains his list of Popes going back to Peter.

It has NOTHING to do with Tertullian's work, De Pudicitia, wherein, he refers to the Bishop of Rome as "Bishop of Bishops" and "Pontifex Maximus".

Then I await your cites from teh se works showing these men naming popes!
WOW - what ignorance . . .

Ummmmmm, the Donation of Constantine has NOTHING to do with Irenaeus or his work, Against Heresies, which contains his list of Popes going back to Peter.

It has NOTHING to do with Tertullian's work, De Pudicitia, wherein, he refers to the Bishop of Rome as "Bishop of Bishops" and "Pontifex Maximus".

BOTH of these works were written about a century before there even WAS a Constantine.

As for Peter NOT being the leader . . .
a. Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.

b. Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.

c. Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.

d. Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) if he was not in charge??

e. Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13) if he was not in charge??

f. Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7) if he was not in charge??

g. Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22) if he was not in charge??

h. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36) if he was not in charge??

i. Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12) if he was not in charge??

j. Tell me WHY Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira) affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11) if he was not in charge??

k. Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40) if he was not in charge??

l. Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6) if he was not in charge??

m. Tell me WHY Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other disciples put together if he was not in charge??

His name is mentioned 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is the next with only 48 mentions, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible.


I'll wait right here for your response . . .

All of these tell me why's are subjective appeals based on sometime facts, and sometime a misunderstanding of Scripture and what was happening.

But I will answer a few.

h :
Acts 2:7-8
King James Version

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

L: Because Peter had the keys of the kingdom! He had to opemn the door for every race to hear teh gospel. Ergo: He spoke first to teh Jews in a sermon, He spoke to the Samaritans and then He spoke to the Gentiles- which opened the door for the gospel to advance to all those people groups! That is what keys do- open doors!

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

He gave the first sermon! But all the apostles spoke before Peter did His solo.

D: because he was the one who denied the Lord so He was called out by name. He was not Protos but was the first of them called. First is not a place of prominenece but simply the order of calling.

I could go on, but If Peter was the head of the church

1. Why did James lead the church from Jerusalem?

  1. Acts 12:17
    But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Acts 15:13
    And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  3. Acts 21:18
    And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
And why did not Paul recognize Peter as Supreme human head of the church?

He was commissioned by the Church without Peter Acts 13

He established myriads of churches without Peter giving even tacit approval.

Why did Paul recognize himself as equal to Peter and told the gentile churches that He was the Apostle to teh Gentiles and Peter the Apostle to the Jews?

Why did Paul openly rebuke Peter if Peter was in a superior position to Paul???
 
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Ronald Nolette

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WHO told you that the New Testament is the Word of God?

WHY
do you trust those 27 Books as "Scripture"?

The Bible says that the Church has Authority (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23) - why do YOU reject that?

And the church is the ekklesia- the called out ones. Not some bureaucratic authority or hierarchy. Leadership is one of many ministries God gave to the church to bring the church into the fulness of faith!
 

theefaith

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Negative. Jesus didn't send the Apostles with authority. He sent them with a message. The message has authority.

that’s not what Jesus said!

John 20:21 as the Father sent me, I send you! Pretty plain!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
 

theefaith

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And the church is the ekklesia- the called out ones. Not some bureaucratic authority or hierarchy. Leadership is one of many ministries God gave to the church to bring the church into the fulness of faith!

the new covenant kingdom body of Christ church is a spiritual anarchy you can do and believe whatever you want!

or is it a covenant and kingdom with structure, requirements, teaching authority in hierarchy!

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors in the church founded in the one true founded by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

hierarchy or anarchy? Jesus said hierarchy!

Jn 20:21-23
As the Father sent me, I send you!

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
 

Jane_Doe22

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Bump for @theefaith
A Christian is a disciple of Christ.

Tell me how you follow Christ.
Tell me how you love Christ.
Tell me how you celebrate Christ.
Tell me about your faith in Christ.

Show me that you are not an empty vessel blindly following some mortals, but a thinking intelligent person whom loves Christ and is filled with Him.

That's not an answer.
 

theefaith

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I dont have “a” faith in Christ!

thee faith is revealed by God thru Christ thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors! The common faith and salvation of all who are in the new covenant! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
 

Jane_Doe22

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I dont have “a” faith in Christ!

thee faith is revealed by God thru Christ thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors! The common faith and salvation of all who are in the new covenant! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
I have asked NUMEROUS times for you to show me how you follow Christ, love Christ, celebrate Christ, etc.

You have not. I can only conclude that you can't. Therefore, I have no evidence that you are in fact a Christian, and in that great void I can't really consider you to be a Christian at all.
 

BreadOfLife

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The talk is concerned with whether the Scriptures are adequate for issues of faith and doctrine. You argue from the scriptures, which seems to answer the question in the affirmative.

Your interpretation of Matthew 16:18 lacks substance since you don't actually understand it. You simply repeat what others have told you about the etymology of the name Cephas, which is suppose to justify the idea that the universal church is under the authority of man claiming to be the vicar of Christ. That's quite a big jump. Even if Jesus meant to say that he was going to build his church on Peter, succession does not follow from that.

You never ask or answer why Jesus changed Simon's name to Cephus. What is that all about? Your argument rips the verse out of context, caring little for the words of Jesus coming before and after Matthew 16:18. And perhaps you are unaware of the time when Jesus called Peter "Satan"?

Matthew 16:23
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”


From this we learn that the foundation of Jesus' church isn't a man, but an idea. When Peter has the right ideas, he is the rock. When he has the wrong ideas he is Satan.

I find nothing in the passage to suggest excommunication.

Who are you? Adam Schmitt? Your idiotic rendering of the passage was neither spoken nor implied by me.

First of all, an Apostle is not a Bishop. Second, you don't seem to understand Jesus' point. The authority doesn't rest in the messenger; it rests in the message. This is why he was emphatic when he said "I do not speak on my own initiative." This is why he says that the Spirit of truth does not speak on his own initiative. Jesus tells you that he speaks what the Father tells him to speak. And he tells you that the Spirit of truth speaks what Jesus has already spoken. The spoken word, which the Father has spoken, carries the authority.

Paul, in his epistle to the Galatians exhorts his readers to stand on the original message, "even if WE or an angel from heaven were to bring another gospel. If the authority rested in the apostles, Paul could not pen those words. But the authority resides in the teachings of God the Father, and we obey him and his Son Jesus Christ.
WRONG.

The authority rests on His CHURCH - which is His BODY and He is the HEAD.
His Church is made up of people - not ideas.

Matt 16:16-19
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matt. 18:15-18
Amen, I say to you, whatever YOU bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever YOU loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

John 20:21-23
Whose sins YOU FORGIVE are forgiven them, and whose sins YOU RETAIN are retained.”

Luke 10:16
Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

NONE of these Authoritative statements says what YOU want it to say:
"Whose sins GOD forgives"
"Whatever SCRIPTURE binds or looses"


He explicitly states:
"Whatever YOU bind or loose . . ."
"Whose sins YOU forgive . . ."



As for Peter being the "Rock" - he's NOT the only other person besides Jesus who is called "The Rock" in Scripture.
Abraham is ALSO called the "Rock (Isa. 51:1-2). Besides - "Simon" doesn't mean "Rock" - PETER/CEPHAS does.


Finally - as to Matt. 18:17 - this IS about excommunication.
As I educated you before - it doesn't make ANY sense unless it's about excommunication.

Matt. 18:17 (KJV)
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


YOU
would have us believe He said:
"If he doesn't listen to you, take 2 or 3 witnesses.
If he doesn't listen to them, tell the Church.
If he doesn't listen to the Church - that's okay, he'll be fine."


What nonsense . . .
 
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theefaith

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Amen!

we encounter Christ in His church, Holy Mass, the sacraments, prayer, and scripture!
 

Jane_Doe22

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Amen!

we encounter Christ in His church, Holy Mass, the sacraments, prayer, and scripture!
A person's butt warming a pew doesn't make them a Christian.
A person's going through the motions of a ritual doesn't make them a Christian.
A person's reciting some words or reading some book doesn't make them a Christian.

All of the above is 100% hallow until that person has a changed heart.

They must have faith themselves, celebrate Him from their very core, follow Him as He commands, etc.



I thoroughly studied Catholicism for many years, and know it to be a beautiful faith that can indeed facilitate that saving relationship with Christ. I have known many wonderful Catholic Christians over the years with vibrant testimonies. On this forum, there are indeed some with those vibrant testimonies, and some other that...really frustrate me.
 
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CadyandZoe

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that’s not what Jesus said!

John 20:21 as the Father sent me, I send you! Pretty plain!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Galatians 1:6-9
I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!


Did you see that? Paul includes himself in his warning. He tells you that the message of the gospel has the authority, not Paul himself. Paul is not free to invent his own message or contradict the original message. Do you understand?

Even Jesus gave primacy to the message, telling the scribes, Pharisees, and the crowds that he is not speaking his own words but those of his father.

John 5:30
“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

John 12:49
For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14:10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

The Apostles don't have authority in themselves; they do not hold an office of authority. Just as Jesus was sent to speak the words given to him by the Father, The apostles are sent to speak the words Jesus gave them. The Holy Scriptures are the faithful record of what they said and therefore, we look to the scriptures, not a pope or a Bishop or a priest or anyone else for information concerning faith and practice.
 

CadyandZoe

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WRONG.

The authority rests on His CHURCH - which is His BODY and He is the HEAD.
His Church is made up of people - not ideas.
Once again you argue from the scriptures, which defeats your entire argument that men, not the scriptures have authority.