John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?
- Thread starter Truthcampaign.org
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
That's what I said. But him being chosen to be an apostle isn't dependent on him actually becoming one. Now contrast that with the election of salvation. You can't be chosen if you don't have faith. You can't be chosen in that case because you don't have faith. But not operating in your gift doesn't mean you weren't chosen to operate in that gift.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I know, it is fruitless, but it's fun. I get benefit out of revisiting and studying doctrine.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I love to discuss also, hopefully tong is not one who will Falsely accuse and blame shift when he does not get his way,
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I wish that were true, but it's not. MANY people reject the sure word of faith God gives them. If what you say was true there would be no such thing as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I give him credit for being polite and cordial. Thank you for that, @Tong2020 .
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I do see that. You just can't see that I go by what the Bible says that means, not what Calvin says that means. Because you're a Calvinist chances are good you can not even see any other way, right or wrong, to understand election. Am I right?
I understand your view of it. But I doubt you understand my view of it. Hopefully, I'm wrong about that, though.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Just so you know I really do understand your posts. I've been trying to lure you into understanding mine. You don't have to agree with mine. I just want you to see there really is a different way to understand election.
To the Calvinist, being elected means you were purposely designed and created to be a believer. But to the rest of us being elected means satisfying the condition of having faith in God and on that basis being chosen (elected) to be a part of the kingdom of God. Election through the way of faith, not works, being the will and purpose of God right from the start. Calvinist see the will and purpose of God from the start being that certain 'elect' people will be purposely created to be a believer.
ThePuffyBlob
Well-Known Member
i always seek to be right and always fail to see the truth while seeking my own desire to be right i have to change this but how? should i just shut up?
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Like Jesus said
it is the will of God that all who see and BELIEVE will have eternal life (john 6)
you can’t have election as being the will of god when you remove faith from the Equation
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Philip James
Well-Known Member
i just gave you a like for the beard, really i have no idea what you just said
Lol, I'll take it!
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
@Truthcampaign.org , this is my second refutation of your claims concerning Transubstantiation.
You are saying that Jesus literally offered His flesh and blood to His apostles to eat and drink because He said "this is my body" and "this is my blood...." This idea is logical, but it's not the truth! The Bible account says NOTHING about Jesus tearing pieces of His flesh off or making Himself bleed. It says that he broke bread into pieces and poured wine into a cup.
The truth is that He did not offer His literal flesh and blood to the apostles. He called the bread His body and the wine His blood because these elements REPRESENTED His body and blood that were about to be broken and poured out for their (and our) salvation. Using bread and wine, He was ILLUSTRATING to His apostles what was about to happen to Him.
Even if the bread and wine BECAME His flesh and blood in the apostles' stomachs, they would have tasted it as human flesh and blood, logically speaking. This also holds true for Catholic Mass. Has anyone ever burped the taste of flesh and blood after eating the wafer and drinking the wine??
This is one of the most glaring instances of the Catholic leadership misapplying logic by failing to recognize that Jesus was speaking symbolically, not literally.
When we are born again, we are born of the SPIRIT. At this point, we become one SPIRITUALLY with God. We do not need the physical DNA of Jesus Christ in our bodies in order to be born again; therefore, we do not need to literally eat His flesh and drink His blood. However, we DO need to BELIEVE in Jesus, in His body broken for us on the cross, in order to be born again....
John 3:3-8
Jesus replied, “ I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” “But how can anyone be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked Him. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born?” Jesus answered, “I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again. The wind blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound, but you don’t know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”
EDIT: You have to consider John 6:66 in the context of what Jesus said right before the disciples left Him. He said there were some among them "who don't believe." He also said that it is "the Spirit is the One who gives life!"
John 6:61-65
Jesus, knowing in Himself that His disciples were complaining about this, asked them, “Does this offend you? Then what if you were to observe the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? The Spirit is the One who gives life. The flesh doesn’t help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some among you who don’t believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning those who would not believe and the one who would betray Him.) He said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless it is granted to him by the Father.”
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Invalid question, for the verse does not speak about the matter of the disciples leaving or not leaving. I am not concerned nor am taking issue with what some say, so why do you bring that up?
Before I comment, let me asked this clarificatory question:
What does "come to me" in John 6 verses 37,44 and 65 mean to you?
- <<<The disciples were drawn by the Father BUT stopped believing:>>>
Tong
R1225
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Philip James
Well-Known Member
And yet for 2000 years the Church has demonstrably taught that Jesus meant exactly what He said..
The truth is established in the testimony of 2 or 3 witnesses...
The Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria, the Church in Constantinople, are 3, 2000 year old living witnesses that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ..
Where is the 2000 year old Christian community that says otherwise?
Peace be with you!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Prayer Warrior
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that the Catholic Church cannot be wrong just because they have taught the same thing for 2000 years? Why would it make any difference how long something has been taught?
You used the word "demonstrably." How has this doctrine been "demonstrated"? With DNA samples proving that the bread and wine LITERALLY become flesh and blood??
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@Prayer Warrior It's Scripture that should be the constant guide...
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