Miracles, Signs and Wonders

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Berserk

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sure not according to Paul its just the opposite of your claim lol............."

Paul would dismiss your pontification as "foolish" on the grounds that signs and wonders are a normative aspect of life in the Spirit:
"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing?...Well then, did God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)."

So Paul teaches us to expect miracles as a normative part of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit:
"My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on the wisdom of words, but on the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:5-6)."

Your position negates Jesus' promise about continuous signs and wonders:
"Whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and greater works then these because I'm going to the Father )John 14:12)."

Paul would consider you "arrogant" for watering down the Gospel and meaning of the kingdom of God's presence:

"...I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."

How telling it is that you ducked the last 2 texts I just quoted. Paul refers to you and your ilk as those who having "a form of godliness, but denying the power of it. Avoid them (2 Timothy 3:5)!" Skeptics rightly take the position that if God doesn't do it today, it's not plausible to believe that He did it back then in biblical times.
 

ChristisGod

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Paul would dismiss your pontification as "foolish" on the grounds that signs and wonders are a normative aspect of life in the Spirit:
"Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing?...Well then, did God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)."

So Paul teaches us to expect miracles as a normative part of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit:
"My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest on the wisdom of words, but on the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:5-6)."

Your position negates Jesus' promise about continuous signs and wonders:
"Whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and greater works then these because I'm going to the Father )John 14:12)."

Paul would consider you "arrogant" for watering down the Gospel and meaning of the kingdom of God's presence:

"...I will find out not the [God-] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God depends not on [God-] talk, but on power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)."

How telling it is that you ducked the last 2 texts I just quoted. Paul refers to you and your ilk as those who having "a form of godliness, but denying the power of it. Avoid them (2 Timothy 3:5)!" Skeptics rightly take the position that if God doesn't do it today, it's not plausible to believe that He did it back then in biblical times.

Those miracles authenticated the Apostles message.

God is no longer giving new revelation and Paul says the coming evil one will deceive everyone with his false signs and miracles. 2 Thessalonians 2:9

Jesus said in Matthew 24:24 the same thing about false miracles, signs and wonders before His 2nd Coming,

next...................................................

hope this helps !!!
 

CharismaticLady

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Please point me to the place where the Apostles discuss what spiritual gifts they have.

Shall I be bold to speak of Jesus, or of what great spiritual gifts I have?

Much love!

Well, that one was easy.

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all.
 
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CharismaticLady

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LoL!

Yes. I'm thinking that if I prayed in a demonic tongue, publicly proclaiming the interpretation would seem to make matters worse, Lol.

Yes, it is even in MacArthur's Study Bible, but when the Word doesn't fit his theory, he is silent. I guess if he doesn't say anything, no one will notice. I remember buying his Strange Fire book. By the discernment of spirits you could almost see the demons flying out of it. It was filled with hate. It is the type of book that makes you want to take a hot shower after a couple pages.
 

CharismaticLady

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he does not use demonic in his commentary as you claim above I have it sitting on my lap opened to 1 cor 14.

if you quote someone the RULES are to link your quote otherwise you are violating the rules of the forum. You are making false claims about his commentary.

The book he wrote said that, not the commentary. But do you really believe we should pray to interpret pagan tongues for the profit of all? Honestly, you're betting on the wrong horse.
 

ChristisGod

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Nowhere does the Bible teach that the gift of tongues is anything other than "human languages!" And if you have a question about that, all you need to do is to go back to Acts 2. Go back there with me for a moment, verse 4, "They were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other languages (it's the word language, we'll see that in a minute), as the Holy Spirit was giving them utterance." Notice that they didn't have to learn how to do it. Somebody didn't sit them down in a chair and say, "Empty your mind and start talking in unintelligible syllables" No, the Spirit gave them utterance and they began to speak. Really; and what did they speak? It's very clear, "The multitude came together (verse 6), they were bewildered (they were from everywhere, by the way), they were each hearing them speak in his own language." It wasn't double-talk, it wasn't gibberish, it wasn't angel talk, it wasn't celestial speech, it was just different languages. "And they were amazed and marveled, saying, 'Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?'" See Galilee was a kind of a "Hick Town" area. "Hay Seeds" lived up there. Nobody was educated, they certainly didn't learn languages up there. They could barely speak their own language. "Aren't these Galileans? How is it that everybody is hearing them in our own language? The Parthians and the Medes and the Elamites, and the residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the districts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and Cretans and Arabs--we hear them in our own languages." This is incredible! It was very clear what the gift was--it was an ability to speak a language you hadn't learned.

And in that language they were declaring the wonderful works of God and everybody was hearing them. But the people were saying, "This isn't some human exercise. Something has happened here today that is divine." And so it was a sign that God had come in a marvelous way, and God had poured out His Spirit on this Church, on these 120, and the Church was born, and they all could see that a supernatural event had happened. The Church was born and the unbelieving Jews now were hearing the judgment predicted come to pass. God had through the prophet Isaiah said, "The day is coming when, because you don't hear me when I talk your language, I am going to talk a language you don't understand." And that's a sign of judgment, and after all the judgment was coming wasn't it? They had rejected and crucified their Messiah. It was a sign that God had done something wonderful, that God had brought the Spirit and the Church was born: Gentiles and Jews all together would come to Christ and form one body; and it was a sign to unbelieving Israel that they were going to be put outside, set aside, and that the God who spoke once to them in a language they could understand, and gave them the oracles and the covenants and the promises in the Hebrew tongue, would now speak in a language they didn't understand as a judgment. But very clearly it was language. The word in Acts 2 is "glossa" (Gk.) [and it] means language. They were hearing people speak in their own language. That's all, it wasn't some angel talk, some gibberish, some gobbledygook, some nonsense talk. And then it says also they were hearing in their own "dialektos" (Gk.)--dialects. That also we find used in Acts chapter 2.

So there were unbelievers present at Pentecost hearing God's message in their own languages and their own local dialects, not ecstatic gibberish. Now when you come to 1 Corinthians, curiously, the King James Version has chosen to add the word "unknown" (unknown tongue), and some Charismatics have sort of felt that that gave them the right to say they weren't languages. The King James says, "an unknown tongue." You'll notice, if you have a New American Standard [Bible], they took the word "unknown" out. Why? Because it wasn't in the original! They spoke in a tongue. What is it? "glossa" (Gk.) a language. Whatever the gift is here in the Corinthian Church, it is the same as it was then. This is early in the life of the Church and God was still speaking, and God was still identifying Himself through this miraculous expression of languages that had never been learned by these people, and it was a wondrous thing. And it showed them that God was in their midst and God was speaking. And it was also a continuing sign of judgment on Israel. But it was a language again. The word "unknown" never appears in the Greek text. It was a language. There is an interesting footnote to that, that you can look through carefully. Notice the plural and singular usages of the word language, and that's helpful. I believe when he uses the singular of "glossa" he's referring to the false gibberish, and when he uses the plural he's referring to languages, because you can't have plural gibberishes. There aren't kinds of double talk and gobbledygook and gibberish--there's only gibberish. It doesn't have a plural. But that is something you can study in the commentary and examine on your own.

Now, also, you will notice in 1 Corinthians, that Paul insists, verse 13 of chapter 14, that any time someone speaks in a language you must pray that he may interpret. When tongues are spoken in a church someone must interpret. Down in verse 27, "If any one speaks in a language, it should be by two or at most three, and each in sequence and let someone interpret; and if there isn't an interpreter, then stay silent and just pray to God," because it would be selfish, self-centered and have no edification for the Church, plus it wouldn't accomplish anything. Right? Because if I am going to be the instrument of God by which He reveals His presence and I say some things that nobody understands, and nobody translates it, nobody knows whether it was real or legitimate and nobody knows what the message from God was. So it had to be translated for edification and to make the point. You will also notice there is that word, "interpretation;" it is "hermeneuo" (Gk.), which means translation. All he is saying is, "If somebody speaks a foreign language, make sure he gets translated." That's not so difficult to understand. If someone speaks a foreign language, make sure they get translated. Why? So that everybody is edified. So that everybody can learn. [In] verse 5 of 1 Corinthians 14, he says, "Greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in languages, unless he interprets, so the church may receive edifying." Now, do you see here, it's never to be done in private. It would be pointless. Wherever in the Bible does it say that you are to speak in a private tongue? Never! A private ecstatic, angelic speech--never! It's hard for me to argue against those who say that tongues is a private prayer language because I can't go to some text and correct them because there isn't any text! They just made it up. It's a pure invention. It's a nonexistence viewpoint. Some of them try to use Romans 8, "The Holy Spirit makes intercessions for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." How obvious is that? In the first place it is the Holy Spirit and He's making the intercession, and He's doing it with groanings that can't be uttered, not groanings that can be uttered! And it isn't us--it's Him! How can you ever convolute that? There isn't any Scripture to support it. All you have here were times when God desired to speak in a language that the people didn't know in order to reveal His supernatural presence and His Word, and then it was translated for the edification of everyone. It was a very unusual situation. It happened early on; apparently at the time of Corinth it was still going on. We hear nothing about it from then on, in all the rest of the New Testament, and when it was done, it was totally restricted and very clear guidelines were given.

Another indication, as I noted to you, that Paul had in mind human languages, is in verses 21 and 22, and that's what I refer to. Where he says, "In the Law it is written, 'By men of strange tongues and by lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even so they will not listen to Me.'" Paul says this is a fulfillment of Isaiah 28:11-12, and Isaiah 28:11-12 is clearly a prophecy telling the nation of Israel that God will speak His Word in Gentile languages. Do you understand how hard that was for a Jew to accept? God is going to talk in a Gentile language? Unthinkable! Absolutely inconceivable to a Jew! But that was God rebuking Israel in their unbelief, and therefore, in order to be a meaningful sign of judgment to the Jew it had to be Gentile foreign languages because it was the Gentiles that the Jews despised and [they] thought God would never speak through a Gentile. If it was angelic speech that point would be nonsense. Charismatic Chaos by MacArthur

hope this helps !!!
 
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CharismaticLady

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Nowhere does the Bible teach that the gift of tongues is anything other than "human languages!"

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
 

ChristisGod

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1 Corinthians 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
duh its a language the hearer doesn't understand because its not his native tongue.

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GTW27

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I'm gifted to teach, prophetically.

Much love!

This is true. I see you not only as a brother, but as a good teacher. It is wise to play dumb at times as it is related to, "be as wise as a serpent, but as innocent as a dove. It is he who makes himself nothing, and The Lord as All, that The Lord will use mightily, as they walk as One. This is why it has been rarely seen. There are Two coming as One, shortly, and there are others also, but they(the others) will mostly be silent, as many will be caught unaware just as foretold. Can we not watch for one hour!
 
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CharismaticLady

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So there were unbelievers present at Pentecost hearing God's message in their own languages and their own local dialects, not ecstatic gibberish.

LOL You really need to read the Acts 2 account more carefully.

because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

Three disciples were speaking in tongues. One was speaking no. 1 new language. Another was speaking no. 2 new language. And still another was speaking no. 3 new language. All at the same time.

The devout Jew from Mesopotamia HEARD all of them speaking in his own tongue.
The devout Parthian Jew HEARD all of them speaking in his own tongue.
The devout Jew from Asia HEARD all of them speaking in his own tongue.
And so on.
 

CharismaticLady

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Really I understand Jesus just fine no interpreter needed but the Holy Spirit dwelling in me.

We are not talking about Jesus, but the gift of speaking in a new tongue, as opposed to another gift.

What does 1 Corinthians 14:22-23 mean to you about tongues?
 

ChristisGod

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I'm not concerned with the least of the gifts which edify oneself, I'm concerned with the ones that build up others not self.

next........................
 

ChristisGod

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We are not talking about Jesus, but the gift of speaking in a new tongue, as opposed to another gift.

What does 1 Corinthians 14:22-23 mean to you about tongues?
it was used like a missionary who cannot speak the language and God miraculously enables them to speak their language which was unknown to them at the time.


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