Perpetual virginity of Mary!

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Jane_Doe22

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Read exodus anything connected to or consecrated to God has to be holy and pure! Even touching the ark meant death
Christ routinely interacted with sinners. Including being raised by a man you acknowledge as a sinner (Joseph the Carpenter).

His glory is not remotely dependent on any mortal.
 

theefaith

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Christ routinely interacted with sinners. Including being raised by a man you acknowledge as a sinner (Joseph the Carpenter).

His glory is not remotely dependent on any mortal.

His glory overshadowed Mary Lk 1:35
 

Jane_Doe22

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His glory overshadowed Mary Lk 1:35
Again: His glory is not remotely dependent on any mortal..

Your personal Mary-focusness comes across as downright idolatry, not Catholic veneration. Still, I acknowledge that you're not going to realize that, so I'll stop trying to explain other POV's.
 

theefaith

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Mary is the sign that Jesus is God and savior! Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.this saved sign seen in heaven!

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

this sign was seen 500 yrs ago in Mexico and 9 million came to faith in Christ!
Our Lady of Gaudalupe!

this is also the sign to be seen just before Christ returns!

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 

Spurgeon's Girl

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Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (Council of the Lateran, 649)

Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (does James save his people?)

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!

Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!

When you can find some biblical proof that James and John were not the brothers of Jesus, get back to me.

What you have presented is Catholic Spin. Made up conclusions, implications, and guess-work. The Bible said Jesus had brothers. PERIOD.

No council can change those facts.

Mary was a sinner just as the Bible teaches. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23

 
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Spurgeon's Girl

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Mary is the sign that Jesus is God and savior! Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.this saved sign seen in heaven!

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

this sign was seen 500 yrs ago in Mexico and 9 million came to faith in Christ!
Our Lady of Gaudalupe!

this is also the sign to be seen just before Christ returns!

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Is this the same lady that St. Bernadette saw at the grotto at Lourdes? Or is it found in the image on a grilled cheese sandwich?

Wiki says that there have been upwards of 17-18 such appearances. List of Marian apparitions - Wikipedia

If you got your beliefs from the only true source, the Bible, you would be able sort fact from fiction.

Spend your time communing with Jesus Christ.
 
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farouk

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When you can find some biblical proof that James and John were not the brothers of Jesus, get back to me.

What you have presented is Catholic Spin. Made up conclusions, implications, and guess-work. The Bible said Jesus had brothers. PERIOD.

No council can change those facts.

Mary was a sinner just as the Bible teaches. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - Romans 3:23

Luke affirms that Mary said: 'My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour'. She, too, needed the Saviour.
 

Spurgeon's Girl

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None of your quotes are a genealogy.
None of those quotes say Mary had other children.
The Bible only ever names one child of Mary - Jesus.

This is refreshing. Still it shows that the book known as the Bible, has no meaning for some folks. I provided the verses that show Jesus had brothers.

I love these tactics that has one trying to defend what can not be defended. Here is another example of how ineffective these claims are. The Bible doesn't talk about an ascaris, a F-16 fighter jet, a jacuzzi, or a Toyota car, but wonder of wonders, they exist.

There is little to be gained here. If one does not believe the Bible, and instead relies on Catholic spin, well, it is what it is.
 
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Mungo

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This is refreshing. Still it shows that the book known as the Bible, has no meaning for some folks. I provided the verses that show Jesus had brothers.

I love these tactics that has one trying to defend what can not be defended. Here is another example of how ineffective these claims are. The Bible doesn't talk about an ascaris, a F-16 fighter jet, a jacuzzi, or a Toyota car, but wonder of wonders, they exist.

There is little to be gained here. If one does not believe the Bible, and instead relies on Catholic spin, well, it is what it is.

If you are a serious studier of the Bible you will know that there are many beliefs that are not explicitly stated in the Bible but are based on a build up of evidence. The demand for a verse that explicitly states "X" or "Y" is a copout from examining the evidence.

Much evidence has been given for the belief in the perpetual virginity of Mary. If all you have in opposition to that is that the Bible speaks of brothers (and sisters) of Mary then you only have flimsy evidence. Let's review this "brothers" evidence.

Here are 8 points to consider.
1. There is no genealogy in the Bible that goes past Jesus.

2. Nowhere does the Bible say that Mary had other children.

3. There are different kinds of brothers (and sisters) - full blood brothers, half brothers, adoptive brothers. If a man and woman marry and both have children by a previous marriage they will be regarded as brothers and sisters even though they have no genetic relationship. The actual relationship of these “brothers” to Jesus cannot be established unless a genealogy is given, and it is not.

Secondly the word brother can be used in a very loose sense. In Aramaic there is no word for cousin and the word for brother (aha) would include cousin or even nephew. Whilst Greek does include a word for cousin but it is quite possible to translators/writers just used the Greek adelphos to replace the Aramaic aha. Moreover the Greek word for brother (adelphos) was also used very loosely for various degrees of kinship.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the LXX) the word adelphos is used for Lot’s nephew (Gen 14:14). Other similar examples can be given.

Paul says in Col 4:7 & 9
Tychicus, my beloved brother [adelphos]……..together with Onesimus, a trustworthy and beloved brother [adelphos]”. We know from the letter to Philemon that Onesimus was actually a runaway slave, not Paul’s brother (or cousin).

4. An important argument from a theological perspective is that always, when a birth is announced by an angel of a son, it is a matter of an only son.
  • Isaac (Gen 18:10)
  • Samson (Judges 13:4)
  • John the Baptist (Lk 1:13)
If these were figures of the Messiah, it would be illogical that they would be only sons, and the one represented by them were not like them.

5. There is no mention of other children when we might expect there to be.
a) When Luke tells us about the family in Nazareth, he only mentions three persons, not more. (Lk 2:41-52) When Jesus was lost in the temple, Joseph and Mary did not return with other sons. If one were lost, surely they would not leave the others (if there were any) at risk of losing them as well.

b) John tells us that Mary was at the wedding at Cana (John 2) and Jesus was also invited with his disciples. Surely any other children of Mary would have been there (it would have been rude not to invite them) but John mentions none.

6. At the cross Jesus, asks John to look after Mary. If there had been other children Jesus would not have done that.

7. In John 7:3-4 we read So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples may see the works you are doing. For no man works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.” In that culture it would have been very disrespectful for younger brothers to speak to an elder like that. That implies the brothers were older than Jesus and therefore not Mary's children.

8. Finally there indications in scripture that the brothers and sisters referred to in Mt 13:55 (and the equivalent in other gospels) are not Jesus brothers in any genetic sense.

Mark says that at the foot of the cross was “Mary the mother of the younger James and of Joses [Joseph], and Salome” This was obviously not Mary the mother of Jesus, so there is another Mary with sons called James and Joseph.

Matthew similarly says of the women at the foot of the cross “Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph” (Mt 26:56)

Luke says that at the tomb were “Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Mary the mother of James” (Lk 24:10)

John says “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.” (Jn 19:25). Now this could mean that Jesus’ mother’s sister was there (whatever is meant by “sister”) and Mary the wife of Clopas or they were the same person, but either way there were at least three Mary’s at the cross – Mary the mother of Jesus, Mary the wife of Clopas and Mary of Magdalene. Now Mary the mother of James and Joseph could have been a fourth or she could have been Mary wife of Clopas (let's call her Mary Clopas) Either way Mary the mother of Jesus was not the mother of James and Joseph mentioned as Jesus’ brothers. And since they were listed first, neither was Simon and Judas, since if the were they would hardly have been listed after non-brothers.

The Church historian Eusebius quoting from Hegesippus (110-180 AD) writes
After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed, it is said that those of the apostles and disciples of the Lord that were still living came together from all directions with those that were related to the Lord according to the flesh (for the majority of them also were still alive) to take counsel as to who was worthy to succeed James. They all with one consent pronounced Symeon, the son of Clopas, of whom the Gospel also makes mention; to be worthy of the episcopal throne of that parish. He was a cousin, as they say, of the Saviour. For Hegesippus records that Clopas was a brother of Joseph.

So Symeon (Simeon, Simon) was the cousin of Jesus, and Mary Clopas was therefore the sister-in-law of Mary the mother of Jesus. Again note the loose use of relationships. Mary Clopas is referred to as Mary’s “sister” in Jn 19:25 when she is actually her sister-in-law.

In the book of Jude he says “Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ and brother of James” (Jude 1:1) So Jude (or Judas) is probably the brother of James the son of Clopas.

Then also Luke when listing the apostles says James, son of Alpheus. But the Aramaic Alpheus can be rendered in Greek as either Alpheus or Clopas. So again James, the “brother” of the Lord is probably the son of Clopas.
 

Candidus

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If the Reformers got back to "Biblical Christianity" using Scripture to support what they teach/believe then Why do all the Reformers disagree with each other?
The "Reformers" in my opinion, made the mistake of reforming Roman Catholicism, and not scrapping the error and going back further to establish Biblical Christianity. They were polishing a turd.

"Why do all the Reformers disagree with each other?"
Probably because they were not mindless dupes that were in submission to a Cult and a Cult Leader. That's my guess!

Perhaps a better question might be: Why would I believe a Roman Catholic priesthood that is plagued with Idolatrous, Homosexual, Pedophile Bachelors? Just because they are more consistent than the Reformers?
 
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Renniks

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We can’t have Satan accusing Jesus being the Son of a sinner!

gen 3:15 enmity total war none of His works are in Her!

Lk 1:28 Mary is blessed
Lk 1:49 He that is mighty has done great things to me, the Holy Spirit conception of Jesus! And the immaculate conception of Mary!
Rev 12:1 clothed with the sun! Immaculate purity!
The ark is incorruptible wood cover with pure gold with angels over it, a type of Mary and Her immaculate purity, with the angel over Her!
Everyone is a sinner. Even Mary.
She needed a saviour as much as anyone else does.
 

Marymog

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The "Reformers" in my opinion, made the mistake of reforming Roman Catholicism, and not scrapping the error and going back further to establish Biblical Christianity.
Hi Candidus,

I have heard that term "Biblical Christianity" thrown around on this forum a whole lot but no one that preaches it agrees with what "it" is. Can you tell me what Christianity would look like today if we were all 'Biblical Christians'?

(Would there be no church buildings? No church hierarchy? If you believe baptism saves it's ok if you believe it doesn't save that's ok? Abortion and Gay marriage are acceptable? etc. etc.)

Curious Mary
 

Prayer Warrior

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If Mark 2:22 is true, then it seems likely that Mary was born perfect and without sin in preparation for her most holy mission.

Mark 2:22, KJV: "And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles." ... For the wine would burst the wineskins, and the wine and the skins would both be lost.

For the 30,000th time ;), Mary did not have to be perfect. Sin comes through the man's seed (Adam's seed). Jesus could not have a human father, and He didn't. God was His Father.

Rom 5:12-19
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned. In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to a person’s account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. He is a prototype of the Coming One.
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if by the one man’s trespass the many died, how much more have the grace of God and the gift overflowed to the many by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ. And the gift is not like the one man’s sin, because from one sin came the judgment, resulting in condemnation, but from many trespasses came the gift, resulting in justification. Since by the one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive the overflow of grace and the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
So then, as through one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone. For just as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

1 Cor 15:20-22
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.


In the verse that you quote, "old wine skins" pertain to the Old Covenant based the Mosaic Law, and "new wine skins" pertain to the New Covenant based on grace and faith in Jesus Christ, not Mary's womb.
 
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Mungo

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For the 30,000th time ;), Mary did not have to be perfect. Sin comes through the man's seed (Adam's seed). Jesus could not have a human father, and He didn't. God was His Father.

1 Cor 15:20-22-- But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

The verse you quote in no way proves your claim that sin comes through a man's seed.

Your quote refers to death coming through Adam not sin.
True, sin came through Adam "Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned" (Rom 5:12), however your quote does not say that.

Death came through sin - the sin of Adam.

Neither 1Cor 15:20-22 nor Rom 5:12 onwards say that sin or death is transmitted via the man's seed.
 

theefaith

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The "Reformers" in my opinion, made the mistake of reforming Roman Catholicism, and not scrapping the error and going back further to establish Biblical Christianity. They were polishing a turd.

"Why do all the Reformers disagree with each other?"
Probably because they were not mindless dupes that were in submission to a Cult and a Cult Leader. That's my guess!

Perhaps a better question might be: Why would I believe a Roman Catholic priesthood that is plagued with Idolatrous, Homosexual, Pedophile Bachelors? Just because they are more consistent than the Reformers?

where are reformers or reformation in the Bible?
 

amadeus

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where are reformers or reformation in the Bible?
Did Jesus come to "reform" the ways of the Jews who were supposed to be following the laws God gave to Moses?

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matt 15:1-3

Now not all traditions are evil. But if a tradition causes a person to transgress the commandment of God, which way should he go?
 
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