Bible alone?

BreadOfLife · Sep 23, 2020

CadyandZoe said:
The Apostles don't have authority in themselves; they do not hold an office of authority. Just as Jesus was sent to speak the words given to him by the Father, The apostles are sent to speak the words Jesus gave them. The Holy Scriptures are the faithful record of what they said and therefore, we look to the scriptures, not a pope or a Bishop or a priest or anyone else for information concerning faith and practice.

WHO said anything about having authority in themselves??
They have the God-given Authority of Christ (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

And if you think they don't have an office of Authority - then you DON'T know your Bible. What do you think the Council of Jerusalem was about in Acts 15??
What do you think Paul was talking about in 2 Thess 2:15??

CadyandZoe said:
Once again you argue from the scriptures, which defeats your entire argument that men, not the scriptures have authority.

Then you're NOT paying attention.

I stated what the Church AND Scripture have taught for two thousand years. Scripture IS authoritative.
It is not our ONLY Authority as YOU claim. The Scriptures themselves tell us this much as I showed you in post #357.

YOU are a perfect example of who Jesus warned about in Luke 10:16:
Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

Good luck with that . . .

Marymog · Sep 23, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
Your right, it’s your churches insterpretation. you are unable to think on your own I forgot.

I still reject their interpretation

Paul did not say Timothy could do that, he said scripture would do that

end of discussion (there is no real discussion just your churches word, which you admit to blindly following

Hi EG,

I hope it's not the end of the discussion. Isn't that what forums like this are for; discussion?

2 Timothy 3:16 is not up for interpretation because there is nothing to interpret. Paul tells TIMOTHY all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness which is a true statement for Timothy, but not true for ALL Christians from then to eternity. If your theory were true then I can reproof, correct and intstruct YOU in righteousness as much as you can me. That is not logical.

Timothy is a letter from Paul instructing TIMOTHY on how he should act as a church leader. The letters to Timothy and Titus are called Pastoral Epistles because they deal principally with church administration and the growth of heresies and were addressed to individuals rather than congregations. The letter to Timothy gives several instructions for bishops (3:1-7), deacons (3:8-14), and presbyters - priests (5:17-23).
(Letters of Paul to Timothy | Summary, Authorship, & Facts FIRST LETTER OF PAUL TO TIMOTHY)

Since you are a sola Scriptura believer use Scripture alone to show me that those letters from Paul to Timothy are meant for all Christians from the time they were written until the end of the world. I can use Scripture alone to prove my point. Can you?

sola Scriptura Mary

Marymog · Sep 23, 2020

Candidus said:
There are more Muslims than Catholics... therefore the only Scripture that is valid by your argument is in the Koran.

Hi dodgeball......Historically, what books were considered Scripture?

Patient Mary

theefaith · Sep 23, 2020

Jane_Doe22 said:
A person's butt warming a pew doesn't make them a Christian.
A person's going through the motions of a ritual doesn't make them a Christian.
A person's reciting some words or reading some book doesn't make them a Christian.

All of the above is 100% hallow until that person has a changed heart.

They must have faith themselves, celebrate Him from their very core, follow Him as He commands, etc.

I thoroughly studied Catholicism for many years, and know it to be a beautiful faith that can indeed facilitate that saving relationship with Christ. I have known many wonderful Catholic Christians over the years with vibrant testimonies. On this forum, there are indeed some with those vibrant testimonies, and some other that...really frustrate me.

there can be no relationship with the covenant and ritual all must be in faith of course acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

CadyandZoe · Sep 23, 2020

BreadOfLife said:
WHO said anything about having authority in themselves??
They have the God-given Authority of Christ

If they have God-given authority as you so wrongly suggest, why did they hold a council? The Council at Jerusalem contradicts your point.

The Apostles held council, not to decide doctrine but to check each other's understanding of Jesus' teaching.

Listen to Paul.

Galatians 2:1-2
Then after an interval of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along also. It was because of a revelation that I went up; and I submitted to them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but I did so in private to those who were of reputation, for fear that I might be running, or had run, in vain.

Paul's submitted his gospel to the others. In this way, Paul demonstrates that it is The Gospel message not Paul himself, that carries the authority.

And again,

Galatians 2:11-14
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

If Cephas had God-given authority, Paul would never question Peter, giving him his due respect. But Cephas doesn't have God-given authority in himself, and neither does Paul. This is why Paul argues from the Gospel message itself. Paul appeals to the message, not any kind of authority he might have.

YOU are a perfect example of who Jesus warned about in Luke 10:16:
Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to YOU listens to ME. Whoever rejects YOU rejects ME. And whoever rejects ME rejects the ONE who sent ME."

You take Jesus out of context. What is the subject matter at hand? Let me remind you. Jesus is sending out 70 of his disciples to preach in the various cities he plans to visit. They will enter a city and stay in a particular household. They will preach that the kingdom of God is at hand, and other information which Jesus has taught them. This is the reason why Jesus says "whoever listens to you listens to me." These men are bringing the gospel message and they are teaching the people the gospel message accompanied by miracles. The same can be said of the scriptures. Whoever listens to the scriptures listens to Jesus. Whoever rejects the scriptures rejects Jesus.

Jesus is NOT saying, "You are free to speak on your own behalf and make up any kind of doctrine you wish."

Jane_Doe22 · Sep 23, 2020

theefaith said:
there can be no relationship with the covenant and ritual all must be in faith of course

Then please tell us about the faith you have individually in your heart -- about your relationship with Christ.

Ronald Nolette · Sep 23, 2020

Candidus said:
Well, if you really want to be accurate, eido in 1 Jn. 5:13 is in the Present tense, not the perfect tense.

Therefore, there is no assurance or conviction of you salvation apart from this very moment. So much for the false canard that you cannot lose your salvation!

Also, a "perfect tense" would not indicate a perpetual future condition. It does not mean that.

YOu are incorrect:

know (eido) is:

Speech: Verb

Tense: Perfect

Voice: Active

Mood: Subjunctive

Person: 2nd Person

Number: Plural

And the perfect does show a completed finished action:

In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated. Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time." Certain antiquated verb forms in Greek, such as those related to seeing (eidw) or knowing (oida) will use the perfect tense in a manner equivalent to the normal past tense. These few cases are exception to the normal rule and do not alter the normal connotation of the perfect tense stated above.

Sorry but believers once saved are saved forever. Livingin disobedience can cause us to lose our ASSURANCE of salvation, but not our salvation itself.

Ronald Nolette · Sep 23, 2020

theefaith said:
the new covenant kingdom body of Christ church is a spiritual anarchy you can do and believe whatever you want!

or is it a covenant and kingdom with structure, requirements, teaching authority in hierarchy!

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors in the church founded in the one true founded by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught!

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

hierarchy or anarchy? Jesus said hierarchy!

Jn 20:21-23
As the Father sent me, I send you!

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Your problem is you force the church to either be a hierarchy or anarchy. It is neither! It is the living body of Christ where all are equal in Christ! There are gift ministries that help mature the saints for the work of the ministry, but they are servants according to scriptures, not overlords. The focus is the entire church gift ministries and all!

But otherwise you put up a great post!

BTW Jesus condemned the church having a hierarchy! See the condemnations of Jesus against the Nicolaitans. There never has beena people called by that so the answer is the title which means ruler over the people!

The chruch was not to have a formal hierarchy like that. the leaders are the ones who are the greatest bond slaves to the church.

theefaith · Sep 23, 2020

You choose spiritual and moral anarchy over the faith of the apostles!
Acts 2:42

Jane_Doe22 · Sep 23, 2020

theefaith said:
You choose spiritual and moral anarchy over the faith of the apostles!

Nobody here is campaigned for anarchy.

The church exists to support a person's walk with Christ - that saving faith/relationship. Not to replace it.

Ronald Nolette · Sep 23, 2020

theefaith said:
that’s not what Jesus said!

John 20:21 as the Father sent me, I send you! Pretty plain!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

YOu should have read the fine print of the great commission!

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Other than establishing doctrine- we are called to do everything the Apostles did! That means the lowliest believer can raise the dead, heal the sick, speak intongues, move mountains etc.etc.etc. For it is not the person, but The God in us that does it in all the chruch, not some Nicolaitan hierarchy who illegally rules over the church!

Eternally Grateful · Sep 23, 2020

Marymog said:
Hi EG,

I hope it's not the end of the discussion. Isn't that what forums like this are for; discussion?

2 Timothy 3:16 is not up for interpretation because there is nothing to interpret. Paul tells TIMOTHY all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness which is a true statement for Timothy, but not true for ALL Christians from then to eternity. If your theory were true then I can reproof, correct and intstruct YOU in righteousness as much as you can me. That is not logical.

Timothy is a letter from Paul instructing TIMOTHY on how he should act as a church leader. The letters to Timothy and Titus are called Pastoral Epistles because they deal principally with church administration and the growth of heresies and were addressed to individuals rather than congregations. The letter to Timothy gives several instructions for bishops (3:1-7), deacons (3:8-14), and presbyters - priests (5:17-23).
(Letters of Paul to Timothy | Summary, Authorship, & Facts FIRST LETTER OF PAUL TO TIMOTHY)

Since you are a sola Scriptura believer use Scripture alone to show me that those letters from Paul to Timothy are meant for all Christians from the time they were written until the end of the world. I can use Scripture alone to prove my point. Can you?

sola Scriptura Mary

In order to have a discussion you have to have two people who are opened minded willing to listen with the capacity to have their mind changed about a view they hold

otherwise it is not a discussion but an argument

Marymog · Sep 23, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
In order to have a discussion you have to have two people who are opened minded willing to listen with the capacity to have their mind changed about a view they hold

otherwise it is not a discussion but an argument

Hi EG,

I totally agree and I have listened to everything you have said (written). I am even willing to change the view that I hold. The problem is you haven't given me a reason to change my view.

Your opinion on the letters to Timothy is that all Scripture is given TO EACH INDIVIDUAL MAN by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That opinion is not qualifiable because each individual man can not correct, reproof and instruct in righteousness anyone and everyone that disagrees with them. It just doesn't work because scripture speaks of sound doctrine and false doctrine; false prophets who twist scripture and elders/teachers of whom we are supposed to follow.

My opinion, which is backed up by biblical scholars and the true intent of the letters to Timothy, is that Scripture is given TO CERTAIN MEN (church elders) by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. If your opinion were true then that means I am correcting YOU and I am instructing YOU in righteousness!!! Right?

Now it seems that you are saying since I haven't changed my opinion to YOUR way of thinking we are no longer having a discussion? That makes no sense.

Soooooo I ask again: Since you are a sola Scriptura believer can you please use Scripture alone to show me that those letters from Paul to Timothy are meant for all Christians from the time they were written until the end of the world. I can use Scripture alone to prove my point. Can you?

Mary

Eternally Grateful · Sep 23, 2020

Marymog said:
Hi EG,

I totally agree and I have listened to everything you have said (written). I am even willing to change the view that I hold. The problem is you haven't given me a reason to change my view.

Your opinion on the letters to Timothy is that all Scripture is given TO EACH INDIVIDUAL MAN by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That opinion is not qualifiable because each individual man can not correct, reproof and instruct in righteousness anyone and everyone that disagrees with them. It just doesn't work because scripture speaks of sound doctrine and false doctrine; false prophets who twist scripture and elders/teachers of whom we are supposed to follow.

My opinion, which is backed up by biblical scholars and the true intent of the letters to Timothy, is that Scripture is given TO CERTAIN MEN (church elders) by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. If your opinion were true then that means I am correcting YOU and I am instructing YOU in righteousness!!! Right?

Now it seems that you are saying since I haven't changed my opinion to YOUR way of thinking we are no longer having a discussion? That makes no sense.

Soooooo I ask again: Since you are a sola Scriptura believer can you please use Scripture alone to show me that those letters from Paul to Timothy are meant for all Christians from the time they were written until the end of the world. I can use Scripture alone to prove my point. Can you?

Mary

I do not believe you

because you continually say your church has the foundation of truth. In other words you are not open to Anything unless your church supports it. According to you I have my private interpretation blah blah blah

I don’t like playing games when it comes to the word of god. And I won’t

theefaith · Sep 23, 2020

Ronald Nolette said:
Your problem is you force the church to either be a hierarchy or anarchy. It is neither! It is the living body of Christ where all are equal in Christ! There are gift ministries that help mature the saints for the work of the ministry, but they are servants according to scriptures, not overlords. The focus is the entire church gift ministries and all!

But otherwise you put up a great post!

BTW Jesus condemned the church having a hierarchy! See the condemnations of Jesus against the Nicolaitans. There never has beena people called by that so the answer is the title which means ruler over the people!

The chruch was not to have a formal hierarchy like that. the leaders are the ones who are the greatest bond slaves to the church.

All are one in Christ yes and equal! But not rolls, husband and wife are equal but different rolls, authority etc.

Marymog · Sep 23, 2020

Eternally Grateful said:
I do not believe you

because you continually say your church has the foundation of truth. In other words you are not open to Anything unless your church supports it. According to you I have my private interpretation blah blah blah

I don’t like playing games when it comes to the word of god. And I won’t

Scripture says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. If not my Church, which church is? I have identified The Church spoken of in scripture.

Thank you for your time!

Eternally Grateful · Sep 23, 2020

Marymog said:
Scripture says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth. If not my Church, which church is? I have identified The Church spoken of in scripture.

Thank you for your time!

I rest my case. You are not open for discussion

you have not identified anything only your view. And you are not open to discussion so it is a mute point.
It’s between you and God now

theefaith · Sep 23, 2020

Ronald Nolette said:
Your problem is you force the church to either be a hierarchy or anarchy. It is neither! It is the living body of Christ where all are equal in Christ! There are gift ministries that help mature the saints for the work of the ministry, but they are servants according to scriptures, not overlords. The focus is the entire church gift ministries and all!

But otherwise you put up a great post!

BTW Jesus condemned the church having a hierarchy! See the condemnations of Jesus against the Nicolaitans. There never has beena people called by that so the answer is the title which means ruler over the people!

The chruch was not to have a formal hierarchy like that. the leaders are the ones who are the greatest bond slaves to the church.

Ronald Nolette said:
YOu should have read the fine print of the great commission!

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Other than establishing doctrine- we are called to do everything the Apostles did! That means the lowliest believer can raise the dead, heal the sick, speak intongues, move mountains etc.etc.etc. For it is not the person, but The God in us that does it in all the chruch, not some Nicolaitan hierarchy who illegally rules over the church!

I don’t know any scripture that says the people are to teach the people, the church is the kingdom of God on earth and has structure hierarchy authority and power!

matt 28:19 has the apostles teaching and baptizing the people, I suppose your going to baptize yourself too?

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

(None of the so called reformers were apostles)

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

The obedience of faith!

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name.

Taught the one true faith revealed by Christ to His apostles! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Heart2Soul · Sep 23, 2020

None of the churches today have the truth in it's fullness....but His Word promises us that there will be unity of faith in His Church againl.

theefaith · Sep 23, 2020

Heart2Soul said:
None of the churches today have the truth in it's fullness....but His Word promises us that there will be unity of faith in His Church againl.

Jn 8:32 and Jn 16:13 the church founded by Christ on a Peter and the apostles and their successors have the fullness of truth!
Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

2 Tim 4:3 applies to all your church maybe but not the one true church, Lk 10:16 if the church teaches error then Christ teaches error and God cannot teach error!

Bible alone?

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