Where do aborted babies go?

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Where do you think aborted babies go?

  • Heaven

    Votes: 28 57.1%
  • Hell

    Votes: 1 2.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 12 24.5%
  • Don't know

    Votes: 8 16.3%

  • Total voters
    49

Giuliano

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What does this verse have to do with reincarnation. I don't get it?
The saints should be patient, even if someone wants to kill them.

It means we reap what we sow. Do not think you can kill someone and get away with it. You might get away with it in this life; but sooner or later, you will have to solve the problem of the injustice you did. If you are a saint, faced with persecutions, do not say, "I didn't deserve this." You do. You are reaping what was sown.

The rule is there, but there is some flexibility. I met a woman once -- and I remembered how I murdered her in a past life. I never mentioned it to her; but the time came one evening when I had to be willing to step up to the plate. She was threatening to stab her boyfriend. I put myself between them and told her I wouldn't let her. She said she'd stab me. I knew it was completely just if she did kill me, so I told her she could if she wanted. I wouldn't resist. She looked at me, stunned and said she couldn't kill me. She had forgiven me for murdering her since I was ready to forgive her if she murdered me. We both found forgiveness, I think. It wasn't strictly required that I be murdered. It was required that I be willing to let it happen however, and without complaining.

Before the Flood, people could attain perfection in one lifetime. It became impossible when the lifespan was shortened. Now it takes about seven or eight lifetimes after sometime commences the Path.

Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

I think the seven churches also show it. You also see it here:

Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

If something is an idol for you and you give it up, you mastered it. God can then give you a hundred of them, and it's okay since they're no longer idols. You will still have persecutions -- in the areas you need to master. So you can have hundreds of these things and family members "in this time" as well as eternal life in the world to come.

Ever notice how people are born different? Well, if you attain something in this life, it's a treasure for you in this life; but there's a copy also of it in Heaven -- and when you get born in another body, that same gift is yours. You can use it time and again over several lifetimes.

Virtues are eternal -- vices are not.
 

Heyzeus

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Videos show fetus's in the womb sucking their thumb, getting hiccups, having dreams, smiling, frowning..and even playing....I think when the brain is aware of itself and it's surroundings is a good indication it has a spirit...because a body cannot live without the spirit.

I would agree -- that if the baby is playing .. sentience is likely there .. but this does not happen until quite late in term ... and if the wiring of the brain is not complete - the baby is aware of nothing.

How can a soul exist - and be aware of nothing ? there are reflex actions ... as the muscles are forming - electrical implulses - connections being made .. but nothing is yet happening in the brain of any significance .. the wiring is not yet complete...

No one can say for sure - but I say that if one is not aware of one's existence - a soul is not present.
 
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Giuliano

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All good .. but when is the most logical time for the soul to land ... ? and why !
I think it varies according to each person. Indeed some people are not "firmly" entrenched in their bodies until they're four or five. You can run a body without being in it.
 

Heyzeus

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Hey it's the only scripture I got...I take it pretty literally....if i am reincarnated then I got to die again and again.

Ha ha .. reminds me of one of my favorite movie lines - from a Segal Movie - Hard to Kill or some such thing... There is a messianic Jamaican gang leader ... lots of voodoo ..

At one point he says to his followers in one of his diatribes "Everybody wanna go heaven .. Noobody wanna get Dead" :)

How else did you think the vacation was going to end ? == then you are back up to do more Hail Mary's until the next vacation.

I like to think that if you are good in this life .. you get more perk points for the next vacation .. .. and if you are bad .. you end up in the gutter for 100 years on your next vacation ;)
 
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Heart2Soul

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I would agree -- that if the baby is playing .. sentience is likely there .. but this does not happen until quite late in term ... and if the wiring of the brain is not complete - the baby is aware of nothing.

How can a soul exist - and be aware of nothing ? there are reflex actions ... as the muscles are forming - electrical implulses - connections being made .. but nothing is yet happening in the brain of any significance .. the wiring is not yet complete...

No one can say for sure - but I say that if one is not aware of one's existence - a soul is not present.
okay....well there is Elizabeth's fetus who leapt when Mary approached also being pregnant and Elizabeth cries out
Luke 1:41-44
King James Version

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

What's your thought on this?
 

Heyzeus

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I think it varies according to each person. Indeed some people are not "firmly" entrenched in their bodies until they're four or five. You can run a body without being in it.

Oh that is ridiculous ... come on .. a soul does not alight at the age of 4 - that would mean the child had no knowledge of his/her own existence .. and then Pop... here I am ! .. no way.
 
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Heart2Soul

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Oh that is ridiculous ... come on .. a soul does not alight at the age of 4 - that would mean the child had no knowledge of his/her own existence .. and then Pop... here I am ! .. no way.
Yeah I have to agree.....even child development theorist say an infant has the capability to speak all languages at the time of birth and as time goes on they begin to lose certain functionality of areas of the brain that never gets used....the autonomic nervous system and somatic nervous system are in full operation....baby's tummy gets hungry and sends signal to brain and brain tells baby to cry....
 

Spurgeon's Girl

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well thank you - but - none of what you just posted conflicts with anything in my post. - unfortunately - your post does not address the major points in my post - and major gaps in your story.

1) when does the soul land ? lets start with that one - include where it came from - as I did - and where it will go - should the process fail as I did.

the floor is yours. will deal with "Personhood" - also explained in my post - in specific detail with both scientific and religious rational given - and again none of the major points were addressed by you - once we are finished with 1) - and good luck with that one .. once you have lost Debate 1.

They were all answered. You just didn't like them. There are no gaps in in what I have said.

I'm not here to win a debate (although I am the only person to use logic). It's not about me, it's about the truth of Jesus Christ.

What you are objecting to is DNA 101. DNA is the creation of God our Father. I don't think that you have been able to improve on it.

The soul land? Land from what, where and how?

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
 
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Heyzeus

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okay....well there is Elizabeth's fetus who leapt when Mary approached also being pregnant and Elizabeth cries out
Luke 1:41-44
King James Version

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

What's your thought on this?

No virgin birth in Mark - John never mention's it either .. that Lukes version is longer and more detailed than Matt is problematic -

but even so .. so she felt a spark of the divine .. had a premonition .. felt the spirit of the lord leap in her womb .. after all she would be the mother of the Logos .. and perhaps got some special treatment ..

This is not support for claims with respect to abortion .. and we have not gotten into the colloquial language issues that present themselves.
 
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Spurgeon's Girl

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Here is your post. If you want to change it, then do so.

I missed responding to this - You are accusing me of something I did not do - aka building a strawman. I never called the part of the Bible you posted Laughable .. what is laughable is the use of that passage to support an abortion claim - for reasons given in my previous posts.


Perhaps Father had a Premonition... not that uncommon .. and why not given my previous description of the travel of the soul.
This does not mean the soul arrives - at the moment of conception however .. and thus you are without a solid argument .. "Non Sequitur" it does not follow.

There are possibilities that you have not considered and that your father had a premonition does not eliminate any of the one's I mentioned.

When does the soul hit the cradle of flesh - and why - and why would you choose that point to enter ? how about when the xmas tree lights turn on .. doesn't that sound like a more sensible option .. from both a religious and a scientific perspective .. because on the science .. you are completely without argument ..

Yes .. a single human cell contains human DNA .. but a single cell is not a human .. a heart cell is not a human .. nor any of the others.
The single strand of DNA is not a human either.. its is human DNA.

1) list the characteristics required for your definition of human - 2) tell me how/why the single cell fits that definition

Lets get this over with .. because your previous argument you have been holding onto for how many years .. turns out to be a Non Sequitur . .. a logical fallacy.
 

Spurgeon's Girl

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1) since when does the 6 week fetal heartbreat mean a that a living human exists - "defacto" You can claim this - and it is a whole lot better than the claim that the zygote is a human - but from a scientific perspective it is an uphill battle.

Define the characteristics required for a human to be said to exist - a Person - and then tell me why you think that was when the soul decided to occupy the fleshy cradle that it will hopefully occupy for many years to come.

My previous posts gives both a scientific and religious justification for my entry point - should be just above.

At what point would you choose - and why.

Your previous posts prove nothing.

Your question ignores the question of development.

Level of Development. The unborn fetus is at an earlier stage of his or her development than a newborn baby, but an eight-year-old child is less developed (both physically and mentally) than an adolescent. Older, stronger, more intelligent humans do not have more dignity and fundamental rights than those who are younger, weaker, less intelligent, and more vulnerable. To use the acorn analogy, an acorn is not a “potential” oak tree but rather a tiny living oak tree inside a shell. It is at the same level of development that every oak tree once existed during that particular stage of life.

Your argument has failed.
 

Spurgeon's Girl

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No virgin birth in Mark - John never mention's it either .. that Lukes version is longer and more detailed than Matt is problematic -

but even so .. so she felt a spark of the divine .. had a premonition .. felt the spirit of the lord leap in her womb .. after all she would be the mother of the Logos .. and perhaps got some special treatment ..

This is not support for claims with respect to abortion .. sans getting into the colloquial language issues that present themselves.

Do you believe the Bible is the word of God?
 

Spurgeon's Girl

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I missed responding to this - You are accusing me of something I did not do - aka building a strawman. I never called the part of the Bible you posted Laughable .. what is laughable is the use of that passage to support an abortion claim - for reasons given in my previous posts.


Perhaps Father had a Premonition... not that uncommon .. and why not given my previous description of the travel of the soul.
This does not mean the soul arrives - at the moment of conception however .. and thus you are without a solid argument .. "Non Sequitur" it does not follow.

There are possibilities that you have not considered and that your father had a premonition does not eliminate any of the one's I mentioned.

When does the soul hit the cradle of flesh - and why - and why would you choose that point to enter ? how about when the xmas tree lights turn on .. doesn't that sound like a more sensible option .. from both a religious and a scientific perspective .. because on the science .. you are completely without argument ..

Yes .. a single human cell contains human DNA .. but a single cell is not a human .. a heart cell is not a human .. nor any of the others.
The single strand of DNA is not a human either.. its is human DNA.

1) list the characteristics required for your definition of human - 2) tell me how/why the single cell fits that definition

Lets get this over with .. because your previous argument you have been holding onto for how many years .. turns out to be a Non Sequitur . .. a logical fallacy.

Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Excellent - same page we are in many respects to Heaven - which takes us back to the question that you have not addressed.

When does the soul arrive ? This is critical - answer - "we don't know" .. best guess ? -- you got a better one than mine - good luck Sentience matters. its the point of birth - and the point of death ..

So if the cradle for the soul is under creation - and you are in heaven waiting to occupy that cradle .. knowing that you will not remember a thing when you get there .. or maybe you have glimers .. like you say - for a fortunate few who won that card in the big game .. perhaps if you are really bad you get a really crap posting in the next go round .. but at some point .. anything is better than sitting around chanting Hail Mary's all day long... cause we miss her in the Trinity... how did the females lose out in that racket btw ? sad thing really .. I liked the fertility rituals.

Speaking of which - do you think God does not tire of "Glory be to me" .. after the first trillion years of waking up every morning to "Glory be to You" ... by every soul he greets ... God probably takes vacations from time to time as well .. he has the worst position in the joint really .. ..

So when mission aborts prior to soul getting to the cradle .. no big deal .. its a few cells .. a process was under way .. but at the zygote .. not a single human cell of the structure of the Human in the blueprint - encoded in the DNA - has been created.

Get back to me when you can tell me how a baby exists - when not a single cell of that baby exists.

Huh?

You've been trying to convince that science rules the argument, yet you don't understand the most basic scientific facts regarding human growth.

zygote
[ˈzīˌɡōt]
NOUN
biology
  1. a diploid cell resulting from the fusion of two haploid gametes; a fertilized ovum.
Diploid Cell: Double the Chromosomes

It has all the DNA it will ever have.
 

CharismaticLady

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The saints should be patient, even if someone wants to kill them.

It means we reap what we sow. Do not think you can kill someone and get away with it. You might get away with it in this life; but sooner or later, you will have to solve the problem of the injustice you did. If you are a saint, faced with persecutions, do not say, "I didn't deserve this." You do. You are reaping what was sown.

The rule is there, but there is some flexibility. I met a woman once -- and I remembered how I murdered her in a past life. I never mentioned it to her; but the time came one evening when I had to be willing to step up to the plate. She was threatening to stab her boyfriend. I put myself between them and told her I wouldn't let her. She said she'd stab me. I knew it was completely just if she did kill me, so I told her she could if she wanted. I wouldn't resist. She looked at me, stunned and said she couldn't kill me. She had forgiven me for murdering her since I was ready to forgive her if she murdered me. We both found forgiveness, I think. It wasn't strictly required that I be murdered. It was required that I be willing to let it happen however, and without complaining.

Before the Flood, people could attain perfection in one lifetime. It became impossible when the lifespan was shortened. Now it takes about seven or eight lifetimes after sometime commences the Path.

Proverbs 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

I think the seven churches also show it. You also see it here:

Mark 10:29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

If something is an idol for you and you give it up, you mastered it. God can then give you a hundred of them, and it's okay since they're no longer idols. You will still have persecutions -- in the areas you need to master. So you can have hundreds of these things and family members "in this time" as well as eternal life in the world to come.

Ever notice how people are born different? Well, if you attain something in this life, it's a treasure for you in this life; but there's a copy also of it in Heaven -- and when you get born in another body, that same gift is yours. You can use it time and again over several lifetimes.

Virtues are eternal -- vices are not.

I don't think I would ever believe in reincarnation, but if you do, I think that is a peripheral issue, and believing in it or not has nothing to do with our salvation in Christ and core issues of the gospel.
 
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Spurgeon's Girl

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Did you not imply babies MIGHT burn in Hell? I hope I misunderstood!

The Bible doesn't tell us what happens to unelect babies. It does however, teach that babies are not innocent at birth.

Your conclusions are your own. Not mine.

You implied that I said as much. I've read the rules, insulting other posters is not allowed.
 

kcnalp

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The Bible doesn't tell us what happens to unelect babies go. It does however, teach that babies are not innocent at birth.
Babies CANNOT sin! They have no idea of right from wrong.
Your conclusions are your own. Not mine.
Just say "babies will not burn in Hell". Can you?
You implied that I said as much. I've read the rules, insulting other posters is not allowed.
See above.