A different take on signs and wonders.

Actually, this is exactly what the Bible teaches . . .

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God will make their minds go wonky, and they will believe the lie, they will be deluded, they will believe these lying signs and wonders so that they will remain condemned.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

This is what the Bible says about signs and wonders at the end of the age.

They will be done in the sight of all men, to deceive all those who would not believe the truth, that they would worship the beast and be condemned.

God will have His witness, His 144,000 in Israel, His witnesses in Jerusalem, then angels flying in the sky.

These are the signs and wonders the Bible prophesies for the time leading up to Jesus' return.

Much love!

Irwin Fletcher said:

One different perspective. I've noticed that in addition the differences that various faith traditions have on this issue, you also find that it varies greatly by culture. In some countries/peoples, they have a much stronger belief in the role of the supernatural culturally. Because of this, they see or believe they see the occurrence of the supernatural from God as a part of their normal range of life. The opposite is also true. Those who don't believe in the supernatural as a culture rarely even think about these types of supernatural events as happening in the modern age.

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VERY good point. People's faith determines what they will experience. I was raised up North in Michigan before moving to New Orleans when I was a boy and growing up in a different spiritual environment. The South, and especially Louisiana, is much more aware of spiritual realities than a State like Michigan, because of all the African, Creole and French heritage and ancestry we have down here. I went to visit my family from up there many years after becoming a Christian, and I could not BELIEVE the faithlessness and psychologically-oriented worldview they took in approaching life. It almost made my skin crawl. I got the creeps, and I wanted out of there as quickly as I could find a way to do so politely. It doesn't mean that there aren't believers up there, but the mentality is so wrapped up in the things of this world that it is surprising if God could move on their behalf at all.

marks said:

Actually, this is exactly what the Bible teaches . . .

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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And this was stated during a time when the power of God was not also being demonstrated, Marks?

Hidden In Him said:

Says who? LoL. If the only signs and wonders being done in the end-times will be those of Satan, will that not amount to God willfully letting the entire planet believe the Devil is far more powerful? How is the end-time harvest going to take place when Satan proves himself powerful and the supposedly "Living" God proves Himself A. impotent, B. a liar, and C. apparently dead, by demonstrating no similar proofs of His existence? And since when in the history of the entire Bible has God ever shied away from demonstrating to this world that His power was GREATER than Satan's?

Your position is utterly without scriptural foundation.

Hope you are having a nice evening, btw.

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Says who ?

GOD


Matthew 24:23-27

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Revelation 13:13-14
He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

hope this helps !!!

Christophany said:

Says who ?

GOD


Matthew 24:23-27

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Revelation 13:13-14
He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

hope this helps !!!

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It never helps, LoL. But your heart is in the right place I believe : )

Since you are quoting 2 Thessalonians just as Marks did, respond to Post #23 for me.

God bless

Hidden In Him said:

And this was stated during a time when the power of God was not also being demonstrated, Marks?

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its future ie the end times as in the day of the Lord right before His Coming as Jesus warned in Matthew 24 and gave us the signs of His Return.

hope this helps !!!

Christophany said:

Says who ?

GOD


Matthew 24:23-27

Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Revelation 13:13-14
He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life.

hope this helps !!!

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When I say your heart is in the right place, I unfortunately also have to add that your head is not. By this position, you will concede the planet to the Devil. It is not a good position to take were evangelism is concerned. It is a losing position, and one only the enemy will be pleased with.

Christophany said:

its future ie the end times as in the day of the Lord right before His Coming as Jesus warned in Matthew 24 and gave us the signs of His Return.

hope this helps !!!

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You need to read the passage a little closer from the original, Christophany.

In the Greek, the passage reads καὶ διὰ τοῦτο πέμπει αὐτοῖς ὁ θεὸς ἐνέργειαν πλάνης εἰς τὸ πιστεῦσαι αὐτοὺς τῷ ψεύδει. "And because of this, God is sending them (present tense) the demonic works of error." Paul was referring to something that was happening at the time, in present tense.

Hidden In Him said:

When I say your heart is in the right place, I unfortunately also have to add that your head is not. By this position, you will concede the planet to the Devil. It is not a good position to take were evangelism is concerned. It is a losing position, and one only the enemy will be pleased with.

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scripture says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one ( 1 John 5:19)and also the god of this world had blinded the minds of unbelievers on earth to the glory that is hidden in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 )

keep the dialogue going

hope this helps !!!

Hidden In Him said:

You need to read the passage a little closer from the original, Christophany.

In the Greek, the passage reads καὶ διὰ τοῦτο πέμπει αὐτοῖς ὁ θεὸς ἐνέργειαν πλάνης εἰς τὸ πιστεῦσαι αὐτοὺς τῷ ψεύδει. "And because of this, God is sending them (present tense) the demonic works of error." Paul was referring to something that was happening at the time, in present tense.

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sure Paul expected Jesus coming in His day but here we are 2000 years later.....................................

Christophany said:

scripture says the whole world lies in the power of the evil one ( 1 John 5:19)and also the god of this world had blinded the minds of unbelievers on earth to the glory that is hidden in Christ ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 )

keep the dialogue going

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It doesn't mean that Satan was the only one performing any signs and wonders. These verses were written when the Lord was proving Himself far greater through signs and wonders to be the True and Living God. If you interpret these verses to refer to the performing of signs, your position is inconsistent with the record of Acts.

David H. said:

The Understanding is that the wheat and the tares are together and will be separated not by men but by angels. Until then to a certain degree we are all ignorant of who are the tares among us... correct? In the end we shall see them for who they are. This is what the end time final revival and outpouring is about.

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Yes, there is the notion of the invisible Church (saints outside the physical church), the wolves in sheep's clothing (tares amongst the wheat), and so on. This is, en large, a mystery. But, this is entirely irrelevant to the ministry of the Church on earth. Invariably, there will always be the condemned, and the elect. An outpouring of the Spirit is not necessarily to discern between the saved and the concealed lost, but to gain the overtly lost.
Meaning, if one is an infiltrator, then we don't expect a rehabilitation from such a deceptive and nefarious character - tasting of the fruits but mocking the power and truth. I think, anyhow. I don't see a revival in the Spirit, I believe that it is continuously active, for I don't read anywhere, definitively, where the cessation is stipulated.
if there is an influx during certain eras, that's one thing, but I don't expect a change in mandate in order to accommodate the anticipated revival.

Hidden In Him said:

It doesn't mean that Satan was the only one performing any signs and wonders. These verses were written when the Lord was proving Himself far greater through signs and wonders to be the True and Living God. If you interpret these verses to refer to the performing of signs, your position is inconsistent with the record of Acts.

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Like I said it was in the future which is consistent with Jesus teaching in Matthew 24 and Revelation 13 unless you are one of those who think it was fulfilled in ad 70 with the destruction of the temple.

Christophany said:

sure Paul expected Jesus coming in His day but here we are 2000 years later.....................................

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Yes, but the point is that you are citing a passage as if it were solely about the future, when in reality it was about his present, during a time when the Living God was (as always) proving Himself greater in power than the enemy, just as He always has throughout history.

Again, your position is not supported by scripture, and despite not intending to, it is actually heretical. It insinuates that the Lord will condone Satan proving to the world that he is more powerful than the Living God. This cannot be supported by any Biblical account, although maybe I could be wrong (but I'm not). But if you can provide a case from scripture where God allowed this, I would be willing to listen. But unless you can, your position is based only on faulty interpretation, not historical precedent.

Christophany said:

Like I said it was in the future which is consistent with Jesus teaching in Matthew 24 and Revelation 13 unless you are one of those who think it was fulfilled in ad 70 with the destruction of the temple.

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No, not in the least. I'm not a Preterist. I believe regarding Biblical prophecy that what often comes in the immediate wake of a prophecy is the partial fulfillment of it, which gives it credibility in the eyes of those who received it during that time. But the ultimate fulfillment is postponed for a much later time. That is what was going on in Isaiah's time, and in the time of the New Testament writers as well.

Hidden In Him said:

No, not in the least. I'm not a Preterist. I believe regarding Biblical prophecy that what often comes in the immediate wake of a prophecy is the partial fulfillment of it, which gives it credibility in the eyes of those who received it during that time. But the ultimate fulfillment is postponed for a much later time. That is what was going on in Isaiah's time, and in the time of the New Testament writers as well.

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GG. Maybe I'll check back later if I can.

God bless, and talk to ya later!

David H. said:

... Until then to a certain degree we are all ignorant of who are the tares among us... correct? ...

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It's EASY to spot the tree with bad fruit. You take a taste, then spit it out.

And one of the "taste tests" is whether someone seeks to confuse us with FALSE ANALOGIES.


... and so some of the "bad fruit" parades itself as "GOOD FRUIT", but we know better.
Bobby Jo

Irwin Fletcher said:

One different perspective. I've noticed that in addition the differences that various faith traditions have on this issue, you also find that it varies greatly by culture. In some countries/peoples, they have a much stronger belief in the role of the supernatural culturally. Because of this, they see or believe they see the occurrence of the supernatural from God as a part of their normal range of life. The opposite is also true. Those who don't believe in the supernatural as a culture rarely even think about these types of supernatural events as happening in the modern age.

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@Irwin Fletcher It's one of the qualities of Scripture to be applicable within vastly different cultures.

Addressing the OP only.
you're correct on the gifts, they have not stop, and here's why, you said it, listen to yourself, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away".

see these things may vanish from the person who don't believe. but as said "Charity never faileth" see that semicolon afterward, it seperates "charty from the rest of the verse. now lets see "CHARITY", see why the Gifts faileth NOT. scripture, 1 Corinthians 13:1 "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." (see "charity" there remember that, ok)
1 Corinthians 13:2 "And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing."

now the revelation of "Charity". charity is "LOVE", correct. ok, question, "what... STOP, not what is "Charity", but "WHO" is Charity?" answer, God, 1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." BINGO. see, when one "knoweth not God", then, as said, "prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away". see, when one have not God/Charity, as the apostle Paul siad, "speak with the tongues of men and of angels", vanish, and have .. get this all "faith" to move mountians ... nothing. see, without God you can do nothing, listen, Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." understand now.

now to your other concern,

David H. said:

Earlier on this forum I have said that the gift of discerning of the spirits has been nullified in this day and age. I Believe this is of God's doing, and by his will that the church is in a state of flux and uncertainty over the issues. We see these sorts of debates ad infinitum online with little or no resolution ever, and they include not just this debate on cessationism and continuism of the gifts of the spirit, but also on many other divides.

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correct, this is by God design, not that he's the author of confusion, but to bring about the thirst for his word, for there is a famine in the Land.

and note this was foretold of these debates within the church, listen first NT, then OT. 2 Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"
2 Thessalonians 2:12 "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." see this is why one need to show scripture from where one belif are comming from, and let the hearer decide. for if they are his sheep, he said, "my sheep hear my voice". if they hear not, by obeying his word, then they are not his sheep, and 2 Thessalonians 2:12 is in effect.

Now the OT, Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." BINGO, one might wnat to make a cross reference here with 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

Isaiah 66:5 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."

well that is what you did, "said, Let the LORD be glorified". we as children of God must speak the TRUTH, and have the scriptures, the Word of God to back up what we say. after saying let them decide. as the scriptures states, 2 Corinthians 5:11 "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences." (it's the person decision to believe or not, it's their choice). why? Galatians 1:10 "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."

this is where I stand, tell the truth by thge scriptures, and let men decide.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

marks said:

No . . . the end times signs and wonders will be those to deceive the world into worshiping the beast.

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ha so sing it with me one mo time,
"When we aaalll get to heaven..."