The Eternal Security Heresy: A Comprehensive Refutation of OSAS

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Ferris Bueller

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What do you say of the deathbed conversion? Such a person has never had the opportunity to "practice righteousness".
Why is it impossible to 'do' these on your deathbed?

Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control.
 

CadyandZoe

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In the letter to the church of Smyrna the need to “conquer” is again stressed as the way to avoid losing one's salvation: “Whoever conquers will not be harmed by the second death (2:11).” And how can Christians conquer? “Be faithful until death and I will give you the crown of life (3:10).” Again, the implication is that if they are not faithful, their names that are already written in the Book of Life will be erased and they will forfeit “the crown of life.” Remember, the Greek word for “faith” also means “faithful.”
I take issue with this interpretation because verse 3:5 is not intended as a conditional statement but rather as a declarative statement.

Jesus' letter to Smyrna is a comparison between those who's deeds are not "completed" i.e. those who are asleep, and those who have not "soiled their garments" and walk with Jesus. Speaking to those who are asleep Jesus says, "If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief." And to those who are awake and walk with Jesus he declares, "He who overcomes . . . I will not erase his name from the book of life."

Jesus is not presenting those in Smyrna with an "IF-THEN-ELSE" conditional as you suggest. Jesus is NOT saying, as your translation implies, "If you conquer I will not erase your name from the book of life." No, Jesus is instead speaking to those who have already conquered, declaring to THEM that he will give them white garments, not erase their name from the book of life, and confess them before the father.
 

CadyandZoe

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The discussion of Hebrews will focus on 2 central texts in contexts that decisively refute OSAS.
(1) Hebrews 10:26. 29 jointly make it clear that born again believers can lose their salvation and become apostates destined for hellfire:

"If we willfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, but a fearsome prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire (Heb. 10:26)."
Allow me to jump you right down to verse 36 and verse 39.

Verse 36: For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Here at the end of his argument, Paul identifies that ACTUAL problem. He is not talking to those who might be tempted to "go on sinning willfully" he is talking to people who might give up hope. What they need is endurance. He is talking to seasoned believers who have already suffered for the faith. They have already suffered the loss of property and other things. They simply need to hang on longer.

Verse 39: But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

This is the conclusion of the matter. Paul clearly identifies himself with those to whom he is writing. He is assured that neither he nor they will shrink back to destruction. He along with them, are those who have faith to the preserving of the soul. They have already proven to themselves and to Paul that they are among those who persevere under trial, pressure, persecution, and suffering. In Paul's mind, such people have proven themselves to be those who will not shrink back to destruction.

Given this, I maintain that (10:26) is not a conditional, it's a suppositional statement. Paul is stating an assumption about the law of Moses, which is taken for granted in order to make his point about those who have rejected the sacrifice of Jesus. In this context, his focus is on those who oppress his readers, those who persecute them. Their oppressors are those who have rejected Jesus and the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified.
 

Taken

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If you have true living faith in someone. Your trust in them causes you to willingly follow them

true faith will always have works. But works will never save you

Salvation of the soul and A reborn spirit are Gifts from God To a Man whose Hearts True thoughts Believe in the Lord God.

Works are what, such a Saved and Born Again man CAN DO, to Glorify God.

All Works a Saved and Born Again man Does-
that Glorify God- those works are "Rewarded".

All works that Do Not Glorify God- those works are "Burned."

Correct-
Works do not SAVE a man's soul.
Works do not QUICKEN a man spirit.
Works that Glorify God...are ONLY Performed By a Believing Saved and Born Again man.

Becoming a Saved and Born Again (Quickened) man...a is man "reasonable service".

A man lying on his Death bed, coming to True belief in his Heart...becomes Saved and Born Again...yet seemenly never DID any Works to Glorify God...thus will lose out on receiving "Rewards" FOR Glorifying God.

That man Will receive "the Crown of Life"...
While others Saved and Born Again who Did Works...or many Great Works to Glorify God...will receive "more crowns".

Works to BECOME Saved--- pfft!
Works AS A SAVED Person--- TO Glorify God--
Yes.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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CadyandZoe

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(2) "It is impossible to restore again to repentance those who once been enlightened and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partners (Greek: "metachoi") with the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, since on their own, they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding Him up for contempt (6:4-5)."

Such people do not benefit from eternal security. In the context the author likens them to ground that grows "thorns and thistles" that is "cursed" and destined to being "burned over (6:8)" and therefore to be consigned to Hell. Yet these apostates have received the "heavenly gift" of salvation (cp. Ephesians 2:8-9) and the Holy Spirit, and so, they were once born again of the Spirit.

The claim that those who become “metachoi” (= “partners” or “sharers” with the Holy Spirit might not actually possess the Holy Spirit can be dismissed on 2 grounds: (a) The author addresses his readers as "holy partners ("metachoi") in the heavenly calling" (3:1). (b) The author then warns: "For we have become partners ("metochoi") of Christ, if only we hold our FIRST confidence firm till the end (3:14)." By implication the saving partnership with Christ or the Holy Spirit is dissolved if we don't persevere until the end, but become apostates! "Metachoi" in 6:4 means "partners" as well as "sharers." So the Christians addressed in 6:4 "have become partners ("metochoi") with the Holy Spirit," meaning they have been saved by the work of the Spirit. The significance of the phrase, "it is impossible to restore again to repentance" must not be overlooked. "Restore again" implies the Christians in question have already genuinely repented when they became partners with Christ and the Holy Spirit. This is the standard interpretation of academic book commentaries on Hebrews, which posters here have never read. By academic book commentaries, I mean commentararies on just one Bible book written by PhDs in Scriptures who know and discuss in detail the nuances of the Greek text. For example, justbyfaith likes to cite John Courson, who is a pastor/ preacher, not a scholar qualified to discuss the Greek text in detail and who has not written ab an academic commentary focused on just one NT book.
Here I would like to jump you down to verse 9.

Hebrews 6:9-12
But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Here Paul is no longer speaking hypothetically about possible conditions and situations; he directs his remarks to his actual readers convinced of
"better things" concerning them. He opens the chapter with his expressed desire to move his argument beyond the "elementary teaching about Christ." Thus the attention of those in verse 4, are those who have simply received the elementary teaching about Christ. He would like to move beyond that in order to encourage his readers toward perseverance. And he expresses his confidence that his readers will advance beyond basic knowledge and persevere under trial. They have already demonstrated a willingness to suffer for Christ and to support his followers. And Paul desires that they continue to do so.

Thus, Paul is not giving them a warning about falling away; he is giving them reasons to keep going ahead.
 

Heyzeus

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See John 5:24 (kjv).

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If you believe that there will be no judgement - then you contradict your previous claim - and the words of Jesus of Matt/Mark which you are desperate to ignore.
 

Heyzeus

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Salvation of the soul and A reborn spirit are Gifts from God To a Man whose Hearts True thoughts Believe in the Lord God.

Works are what, such a Saved and Born Again man CAN DO, to Glorify God.

All Works a Saved and Born Again man Does-
that Glorify God- those works are "Rewarded".

All works that Do Not Glorify God- those works are "Burned."

Correct-
Works do not SAVE a man's soul.
Works do not QUICKEN a man spirit.
Works that Glorify God...are ONLY Performed By a Believing Saved and Born Again man.

Becoming a Saved and Born Again (Quickened) man...a is man "reasonable service".

A man lying on his Death bed, coming to True belief in his Heart...becomes Saved and Born Again...yet seemenly never DID any Works to Glorify God...thus will lose out on receiving "Rewards" FOR Glorifying God.

That man Will receive "the Crown of Life"...
While others Saved and Born Again who Did Works...or many Great Works to Glorify God...will receive "more crowns".

Works to BECOME Saved--- pfft!
Works AS A SAVED Person--- TO Glorify God--
Yes.

Glory to God,
Taken

James 2 states that those who believe in "Faith Alone" are foolish.
The Jesus of Matt/Mark concurs.

Why do you selectively ignore the words of Jesus that disagree with your proposition ?
 

Taken

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James 2 states that those who believe in "Faith Alone" are foolish.
The Jesus of Matt/Mark concurs.

Why do you selectively ignore the words of Jesus that disagree with your proposition ?

James 2: does not mention foolish.
James 2- is speaking about behaviors between men.

Matt and Mark mentions....what Also is behavior between men, and a man's choices.

Matt 5:
[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matt.7
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Matt.23
[17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
[19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

Matt.25
[2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
[8] And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

Mark.7

[22] Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride,foolishness:

What does that have to Do With a man Trusting The Lord is Faithful to Save once and forever, a willing man?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

justbyfaith

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Listen to what I'm saying. The works in 1 Corinthians 3:7-16 can't be works of personal righteousness because that would make John a liar in 1 John 3:10. If you would just read the context you'd see the work that you don't have to have and still be saved is planting and watering the field of God and constructing the building of God. But if you don't have works of personal righteous living you're showing yourself to not be a child of God and you will not be saved when Jesus returns.

Yet, the scripture is clear, in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, that if someone does not have gold, sliver, or precious gems to show for their life, yet believes in Jesus, they will still be "saved, yet so as by fire."

This indicates, as we find in Romans 4:5-6, Titus 3:5, Romans 11:5-6, and Ephesians 2:8-9, that salvation is not of works.

Why is it impossible to 'do' these on your deathbed?

Galatians 5:22-23
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control.

Most assuredly, one can exhibit these fruits on their deathbed...without doing any works.

Also, what of the person who calls on the name of the Lord and then takes their last breath one minute later?

If you believe that there will be no judgement - then you contradict your previous claim - and the words of Jesus of Matt/Mark which you are desperate to ignore.

I definitely believe that there will be a judgment...but that those who hear Jesus' words and believe on Him who sent Him will not be condemned in it. Their sins are covered by the blood (Romans 4:7-8). Therefore the only judgment that will be meted out to them will be whether their works are identified as gold, sliver, precious gems...or wood, hay, stubble. The fire will try each work of what sort it is.

If anyone does not have gold, sliver, and precious gems to show for their ilfe, but has placed their faith in Jesus Christ...they will be "saved, yet so as by fire." All their works will be burned up....there will be no reward for them...however, they will still enter the kingdom, and will very likely be homeless in heaven; because they did not build themselves a house, laying up for themselves treasures in heaven while on the earth...the point being that they will not burn in hell.
 
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Heyzeus

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James 2: does not mention foolish.
James 2- is speaking about behaviors between men.

Matt and Mark mentions....what Also is behavior between men, and a man's choices.


Matt.7
[26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:


What does that have to Do With a man Trusting The Lord is Faithful to Save once and forever, a willing man?

Glory to God,
Taken

Not sure what Bible you are reading from as James 2 definitely calls the 'Faith alone" crowd foolish.
James 2: 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless

Matt 7 Echos James 2 - again calling those who believe in "Faith Alone" foolish.
 

justbyfaith

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A person is definitely saved by grace through faith alone...not of works, lest any man should boast.

However, when a man is truly born again (saved), they become a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)...the love of the Lord is shed abroad in their hearts (Romans 5:5).

This love is practical in nature (1 John 3:17-18)...and therefore will produce works. (This is James' point).

The works don't save the man...a man is not transformed into becoming a new creature in Christ by doing some good work...like giving $5 to the poor, or even $5,000,000.

A man is only transformed (regenerated and renewed) through faith in Jesus Christ..."not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5).

What this translates into is "Ye must be born again" (John 3:7) through faith in Jesus Christ (see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
 
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Heyzeus

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I definitely believe that there will be a judgment...but that those who hear Jesus' words and believe on Him who sent Him will not be condemned in it. Their sins are covered by the blood (Romans 4:7-8). Therefore the only judgment that will be meted out to them will be whether their works are identified as gold, sliver, precious gems...or wood, hay, stubble. The fire will try each work of what sort it is.

.

OK .. so you do not believe in "Sola Fide" .. that is what I was getting at ..

You do realize that you can't have both right .. if "Faith Alone" as described above - is a free pass through Judgement - then there is no judgement .

and your "those that hear Jesus words and believe in Jesus" - getting a free pass through the gates on this basis is contradicted by Jesus in Matt 7

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’


24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand

Jesus calls those who hear the words of Jesus and believe on him "call out Lord Lord" - but do not put those words into practice - "works" do not get through the pearly gates. Jesus calls these people foolish with no foundation.

Those who build their foundation on "Faith Alone" doctrine are said to be foolish - by Jesus - in very clear terms.


What is the "Will of the Father" according to Jesus in this Sermon ? - and no you may not pull from Pauline scripture as Jesus tells us what this is in the Sermon on the mount.
 

justbyfaith

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and no you may not pull from Pauline scripture as Jesus tells us what this is in the Sermon on the mount.
Why not? You do not believe that Pauline scripture is the inspired word of God? Then your Christianity is in doubt....see 2 Timothy 3:16.
 

Heyzeus

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I don't see that. What verse are you referring to, specifically?

What Bible are you using ? James 2:20

NIV - You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
KJV - But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
GNT - You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless?
 

justbyfaith

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OK .. so you do not believe in "Sola Fide" .. that is what I was getting at ..

You do realize that you can't have both right .. if "Faith Alone" as described above - is a free pass through Judgement - then there is no judgement .
I do believe in sola fide, and that those who hear Jesus' words and believe on Him who sent Him get a free pass through judgment (John 5:24 (kjv)...which is not Pauline scripture, per your request).

I suggest you read through my previous posts a little bit more carefully.
 

Berserk

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"Jesus is not presenting those in Smyrna with an "IF-THEN-ELSE" conditional as you suggest. Jesus is NOT saying, as your translation implies, "If you conquer I will not erase your name from the book of life." No, Jesus is instead speaking to those who have already conquered, declaring to THEM that he will give them white garments, not erase their name from the book of life, and confess them before the father."

Well, at least you are the first OSAS advocate to actually challenge my point by point exegesis of Revelation and Hebrews. Unfortunately, all the academic commentaries disagree with you! The 7 letters address the entire church of each city. The church of Smyrna in general is addressed as a spiritually dead church (3:1). Jesus' threat and repentance demand are intended to remedy the situation, so that the church as a whole can shed their "soiled" garments, replace them with "white robes," and "conquer" too. In 3:5 the Greek "ho nikon" is rightly translated "whoever conquers" or "if you conquer" (NRSV) and the Greek "houtos" ("thus" or "like them") expands the chance to conquer to include the entire church:

"If you [the church as a whole] conquer, you will be clothed like them [the "few" with unsoiled garments] in white robes, and I will not blot your name out of the Book of Life (3:5)."

3:5 assumes that the church as a whole is saved and has its names already written in the Book of Life. So the promise not to blot the names out is contingent upon their compliance and obedience. Your ignorance of Greek prevents you from seeing what all the academic commentaries on just the Book of Revelation see.

My refutation of your misunderstanding of Hebrews will follow.
 

Taken

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Not sure what Bible you are reading from as James 2 definitely calls the 'Faith alone" crowd foolish.
James 2: 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless

Matt 7 Echos James 2 - again calling those who believe in "Faith Alone" foolish.

My Bible does not say...do not call men fools, then proceed to call men foolish.

What ...
Biblical Version do you use, that Does ^ That?

KJV- James 2:
[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

So What EXACTLY are you are promoting?
Faith is insufficient?
And insufficient For What?
Justification?
Justification to Receive What EXACTLY?
Salvation?
Rewards?
Crowns?
Blessings?

Faith and Works are two Different things.

Identify your position of "WHO" can DO Any Works that ARE satisfactory TO God...?

Glory to God,
Taken
 

justbyfaith

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The church of Smyrna in general is addressed as a spiritually dead church (3:1).

You mean the church of Sardis?

Smyrna is the only church in the book of Revelation that doesn't receive an indictment form the Lord.
 

Heyzeus

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A person is definitely saved by grace through faith alone...not of works, lest any man should boast.

However, when a man is truly born again (saved), they become a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17 (kjv)...the love of the Lord is shed abroad in their hearts (Romans 5:5).

This love is practical in nature (1 John 3:17-18)...and therefore will produce works. (This is James' point).

The works don't save the man...a man is not transformed into becoming a new creature in Christ by doing some good work...like giving $5 to the poor, or even $5,000,000.

A man is only transformed (regenerated and renewed) through faith in Jesus Christ..."not by works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5).

What this translates into is "Ye must be born again" (John 3:7) through faith in Jesus Christ (see also 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Ye must be born again = you have to die first in order to be resurrected .. not complicated.

Why though are you running away from the words of Jesus in Matt/Mark - which clearly contradict your interpretation of these other passages.

Further .. you seem to misunderstand what this discussion is about. I have not claimed that "works alone" saves one - Not that I would not make this claim but, this is not the conversation we are having.

What I am saying is that works is a requirement in the salvation formulation put forward by Jesus .. That "Faith Alone" will not do it.

So to clarify A) faith alone B) Faith + Works C) Works

What I am saying is that "Faith alone" is the wrong answer .. not that C is the right answer.