Free Will

Anastacia said:

The bible tells us why some are saved and why some are not saved (the reasons given by the Bible are very revealing), and the reasons given why people are not saved, it's not because they didn't have a choice.

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Romans 9:14-16 - What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Salvation doesn't depend on us. It isn't up to us. Salvation is totally and completely a work of God and we can't earn it. It's a gift according to Romans 3:24 and a gift cannot be earned. It cannot be bought or deserved but only received by the giver which in this case is God.

We can see here that Paul answers the very question that springs up when the idea of God choosing to save some and allowing some to perish is mentioned.
Romans 9:19-24 - You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Paul is basically saying that God is the potter and we are the clay. Who are we to question Him in how He molds us? Paul also teaches that God prepared vessels for His glory. Some to make known His riches and others were to be vessels of wrath for destruction. We see this with Jacob and Esau and with the Egyptian pharaoh.

It's an interesting topic we are discussing. You should pray about this and read through the book of Romans. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you into truth if you truly want it and are willing to humble yourself and set aside any pride they may keep God from revealing His word to you with clarity. Grace to you!

James said:

We can see here that Paul answers the very question that springs up when the idea of God choosing to save some and allowing some to perish is mentioned.

...

It's an interesting topic we are discussing. You should pray about this and read through the book of Romans. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you into truth if you truly want it and are willing to humble yourself and set aside any pride they may keep God from revealing His word to you with clarity. Grace to you!

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Hi James,

Checking the context there reveals that Paul is discussing Jew and Gentile, not elect and non-elect.

James said:

Romans 9:14-16 - What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Salvation doesn't depend on us. It isn't up to us. Salvation is totally and completely a work of God and we can't earn it. It's a gift according to Romans 3:24 and a gift cannot be earned. It cannot be bought or deserved but only received by the giver which in this case is God.

We can see here that Paul answers the very question that springs up when the idea of God choosing to save some and allowing some to perish is mentioned.
Romans 9:19-24 - You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Paul is basically saying that God is the potter and we are the clay. Who are we to question Him in how He molds us? Paul also teaches that God prepared vessels for His glory. Some to make known His riches and others were to be vessels of wrath for destruction. We see this with Jacob and Esau and with the Egyptian pharaoh.

It's an interesting topic we are discussing. You should pray about this and read through the book of Romans. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you into truth if you truly want it and are willing to humble yourself and set aside any pride they may keep God from revealing His word to you with clarity. Grace to you!

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I have before prayed about this and read through the book of Romans. The Holy Spirit did lead me to the truth. I am a humble person and I don't have the pride you are insinuating.

You have falsely judged me. And I forgive you.

Romans 9:14-16 is about God having compassion and mercy on the Gentiles, and everyone else. The Jews were God's chosen, and now God was allowing the once called unclean Gentiles to have salvation.

Paul explains that God has compassion and mercy on whom God wills. Paul is explaining how God can allow the Gentiles salvation.

Paul further explains that it did not have to do with anything the Gentiles did that they receive the chance for a relationship with God.


In Romans 9:19-24 has to do about the Jews being hardened. The Jews did not believe, so they were hardened, and this hardening is why the Gentiles can be grafted in.


James, give up your false belief of Calvinism. It is more ugly than you realize.

James said:

It's an interesting topic we are discussing. You should pray about this and read through the book of Romans. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you into truth if you truly want it and are willing to humble yourself and set aside any pride they may keep God from revealing His word to you with clarity. Grace to you!

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How arrogant and self-righteous of you to say such a thing. Do you think you are the only one who prays and is lead by the Spirit? Because one holds a different understanding, opinion or theological stance than yours, this one is full of pride and and in need of humility.

Shame on you. The moat in your eye has certainly blinded you.

If you choose to believe in a God that needs to play in a universal sandbox creating some for eternal punishment and destruction and others to unwillingly and insincerely worship Him in Glory, then so be it. Let's just hope that you are not one of the damned because with such a sadistical God, He could turn on you at any moment.

Until later

It is too bad that Christians cannot see their own arrogance - they have no idea how bad they sound. Ironically, it is only when someone disagrees with their point of view that they cry out against arrogance. I think it starts from believing that the act of sharing information about the gospel with people is the same as love - if the person they are speaking to rejects their love they believe it is an act of arrogance - eesh.

Peace

aspen said:

It is too bad that Christians cannot see their own arrogance - they have no idea how bad they sound. Ironically, it is only when someone disagrees with their point of view that they cry out against arrogance. I think it starts from believing that the act of sharing information about the gospel with people is the same as love - if the person they are speaking to rejects their love they believe it is an act of arrogance - eesh.

Peace

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Yes it is also too bad that some Christians do not notice arrogance when it is blatantly evident.

I do however respect other opinions and place an equal value on them as I would my own. As for individuals themselves I try to place higher value on them than myself, which includes not presupposing their prideful condition and lack of humility. This becomes judgment and not sharing the gospel, and should not be confused or justified.

Ciao! 4 now

This is a response to all for of you instead of for any individual person since you all have replied with different responses...

First off, I was not assuming anyone was prideful...I just know that it is always best to pray and allow God to be the teacher. I meant it in a loving way. This is the problem with forums...it is harder to detect a person disposition. So I hope no one took offense by my suggestion of praying...something that is neglected a lot it seems.

Also, Romans 9 is indeed speaking of Jews and how God has chosen to save gentiles. But Paul also makes it clear that not all Jews or Gentiles will be saved and he gives us the reason why...it's God's decision.

One last thing that I would like to add. When it comes to this freewill thing...yes we have free will. We can chose to do good or bad. But the real question that every person must ask themselves is this...do we have good will? That is, are we born with a nature that is good? I am convinced that we are not. I am certain that we are born in sin and that there are none who seek after God. When Adam and Eve sinned...they hid from God and God came looking for them. It has been that way ever since. Everyone suppresses truth in unrighteousness because they have a corrupt nature. God must come and change that persons nature so that they can come to God. That is why we need Christ...He reconciles us to God.

Also, we do not chose or come to God. He always, always, always comes to us first. I don't even need scripture to prove this truth. Just use logic. How is a person saved? Through the gospel right? I mean no one can be saved unless the gospel is preached to them. So when a person comes to faith in Christ it is a result of hearing the words of the bible through a preacher. So are they coming to Christ out of a sudden desire? Or is God calling them through the gospel that was preached to them?

Apart from the preaching of the gospel...no one is going to come to Christ and Romans 1 tells us why we wont come. That is why God must first draw us through His word.

James said:

It's an interesting topic we are discussing. You should pray about this and read through the book of Romans. I'm sure the Spirit will lead you into truth if you truly want it and are willing to humble yourself and set aside any pride they may keep God from revealing His word to you with clarity. Grace to you!

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Probably a better way of putting this would have been:

**It's an interesting topic we are discussing. We should pray about this and read through the book of Romans. I'm sure the Spirit will lead us into truth as I'm sure we truly want it and in humility we should set aside pride so that God can reveal His word to us with clarity. **


Grace to you!

DiDasKaLos said:

How arrogant and self-righteous of you to say such a thing. Do you think you are the only one who prays and is lead by the Spirit? Because one holds a different understanding, opinion or theological stance than yours, this one is full of pride and and in need of humility.

Shame on you. The moat in your eye has certainly blinded you.

If you choose to believe in a God that needs to play in a universal sandbox creating some for eternal punishment and destruction and others to unwillingly and insincerely worship Him in Glory, then so be it. Let's just hope that you are not one of the damned because with such a sadistical God, He could turn on you at any moment.

Until later

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Thank you brother DiDasKaLos. I can't tell you how much it means to me that you stood up for me. I think you have many family and friends that are blessed to have you in their lives. Thanks again for this blessing you gave me.

Assuming that God is just........

If there were no free will;
- then there would be no need for judgment,
- then there would be no need for constant and consistant warnings about impending judgment,
- there would be no need for Jesus' substitutionary death upon the cross,
- there would be no need for a call for personal repentance and moral behaviour
- the behaviour of man would not be perverted and rebellious.

If there is free will;
- then God would be required to warn man of the consequences of his behaviour,
- then God would be forced to intervene in nature so as to stop and reverse the consequences of sin,
- then God would have to punish man for his rebellion and sin,
- then God would be required to provide some sort of remedy - PERSONALLY since man can not or will not to do it himself,
- then God would be required to honor the remedy He provided.


Actually, your logic rests on the idea that Free Will is dependent on evil, which implies that our Free Will is depended on the Fall. What you are failing to note is that humans had free will before the Fall - Adam chose different names for the animals, for example. Humans chose between good choices before the Fall, so even with Free Will we did not face judgment. It is not Free Will that brings judgment - it is the entrance of sin in the world.

Claiming that we didn't have Free Will before the Fall and therefore needed to sin in order to get Free Will or grow up, makes God's plan dependent on Evil and is actually and LDS teaching. Christianity teaches us that God's plan is never dependent on evil.

Sure we have free will but as I already have stated, we do not have good will. Since the fall, all are born in a sinful state that results in a corrupt nature. We are bad trees and we produce bad fruit. Although we have the ability to chose to do things that are good...they are but filthy rags in God's eye's. In order to change this God must first rip out our stoney hearts and replace them with hearts that will respond to Him. Then we can actually serve God in a way that is acceptable to Him because we are justified and our being sanctified through the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

James said:

Sure we have free will but as I already have stated, we do not have good will. Since the fall, all are born in a sinful state that results in a corrupt nature. We are bad trees and we produce bad fruit. Although we have the ability to chose to do things that are good...they are but filthy rags in God's eye's. In order to change this God must first rip out our stoney hearts and replace them with hearts that will respond to Him. Then we can actually serve God in a way that is acceptable to Him because we are justified and our being sanctified through the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit.

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With all due respect, this is Calvinist doublespeak. The question is whether people have the free will to choose or reject God. There is no choice at all when it's only to "choose" between bad and despicable. That's like choosing to die by hanging or firing squad-- no choice at all when we remember what the point of debate is. The question is this: Does God give us the choice between heaven and hell or not?

If He does not, then there is no escaping the conclusion, intended or not by those who propose it, that God is the ultimate cause of our sin since we have no choice in the matter.

If He does, then we are responsible for our sin.

My study of scripture has convinced me beyond any doubt that we are to choose and that God is not fooling us into an illusion of free will in that choice. Only a true choice between love and rejection is worthy of the one true God; a forced "love" is no love at all. And it is nothing but a philosophical shell game to say it counts as free will even though God imposes a new heart on someone without their consent. If you had a robot that you designed to hate you, but then reprogrammed it to love you, would the robot be responsible for either state or would you, the programmer? Would the robots newfound "love" be genuine? Would you be satisfied with it? I sincerely hope your answer is No!

Jesus said He would draw ALL to himself when He was lifted up on the cross. He also said that whoever chooses may come. These were not lies or tricks by a God who allegedly fills scripture with orders we cannot obey. That is another error in Calvinist argument: that God continually does this. They base it on statements about the old Law that people couldn't keep perfectly and thus needed to bring sacrifices. But to port this to every aspect of scripture is logically fallacious and makes God a cosmic trickster who delights in giving false hope.

No, God is not like that at all. He created us in His image and we are still described as such, even after the fall, and even the lost! (James 3:9) And that image includes free will, meaning true free will and not the deceptive kind Calvinism teaches.

The context of my response was not referring to the choice of heaven or hell but the choice of good vs bad. We cannot chose God in our unconverted state. However, while we are still in Adam, we can chose to do good. But the problem is that because our nature is evil or sinful...whatever you want to call it...anything good that we do chose to do is viewed as filthy rags in God's eyes.

You will never find anyone who comes to God outside of the preaching of the gospel...unless they receive a vision or something like Paul did. God must first draw a person through the proclamation of His word and it's that drawing that comes through the Holy Spirit that enables that person to give there life as an offering to God and therefore be saved.

Romans 10:14 - How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

(Ezekiel 36: 22-32) Notice that in this chapter God is the one doing everything. Why? Because His name is at stake according to verse 22. He is doing the cleanses and saving for His Holy name. No where in there does God indicate that the salvation is up to us but rather Him and Him alone.

If you read on chapter further in Ezekiel, you will see that all men are dry bones and the wind of God must blow upon them or they will never rise up. It is the Spirit that gives life...not the decision of the person. Salvation belongs to the Lord. It is not depended upon us. Nowhere in the bible does it say that salvation is up to us. Sure, we are commanded to repent and believe but we find in John chapter 6 that it's God's decision who will repent and believe.

If freewill were true then there would be no point in praying to God and interceding for others....all we would have to do would be to get people to make a decision. That is very popular in America today. Evangelist who should spend less time preaching and more time studying their bibles are getting people to pray a prayer and ask Jesus into there heart based off of Revelation 3:20. So you have a multitude of people who think they are saved because of the fact they pray a prayer and yet their lifestyle doesn't change they remain the same. 2 Corinthians 5:17 is not a reality for them. Why? They are making a decision but God isn't the one influencing it so just like in Ezekiel 37 you just have a valley of dry bones and they are very dry!

James said:

The context of my response was not referring to the choice of heaven or hell but the choice of good vs bad. We cannot chose God in our unconverted state. However, while we are still in Adam, we can chose to do good. But the problem is that because our nature is evil or sinful...whatever you want to call it...anything good that we do chose to do is viewed as filthy rags in God's eyes.

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This is self-contradicting. If we cannot choose God, then we cannot choose heaven. If God has to make us unable to resist the gospel, then God is making a farce out of preaching, hearing, believing, and accepting, because the outcome is predetermined by God and has nothing to do with our choice. This is the doublespeak.

You will never find anyone who comes to God outside of the preaching of the gospel...unless they receive a vision or something like Paul did. God must first draw a person through the proclamation of His word and it's that drawing that comes through the Holy Spirit that enables that person to give there life as an offering to God and therefore be saved.

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Exactly. Faith comes through hearing, not through election. God makes Himself known to all who earnestly seek Him. But He does not force us to accept. Reconciliation cannot be forced, even by God, or it's a farce.

(Ezekiel 36: 22-32) Notice that in this chapter God is the one doing everything. Why? Because His name is at stake according to verse 22. He is doing the cleanses and saving for His Holy name. No where in there does God indicate that the salvation is up to us but rather Him and Him alone.

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Ezekiel 36 is not about individual salvation at all, but about the return of the nation of Israel after a long time. And scripture is FILLED with commands for us to choose. Ezekiel 18 is very clear that the children do not inherit the sin or guilt of their parents.

If freewill were true then there would be no point in praying to God and interceding for others....

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If free will were NOT true then there would also be no point in praying to God and interceding for others. Neither would there be any point to preaching the gospel, since the elect are elect before anyone is force-fed a new nature and the guaranteed faith that results.

Why do Calvinists argue about anything at all? What's the point? God forces everything to happen, and allegedly has forced me to not accept Calvinism. So what's the point?

SaberTruth said:

Why do Calvinists argue about anything at all? What's the point? God forces everything to happen, and allegedly has forced me to not accept Calvinism. So what's the point?

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Exactly, if everything is predetermined, pre-orchestrated there is no point. Calvanist are wasting there time on this board.

By the way, James, Free Will does not mean that salvation is in man's hands nor is it a work of his own hands.
Many Old Testament righteous people believed and chose God and it was accounted to them as righteousness, nevertheless without the work of Christ on the cross it would have been in vain.

Cheers

SaberTruth said:

With all due respect, this is Calvinist doublespeak.

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Thanks for this, SaberTruth. Good catching what James was putting out there.

Anastacia said:

Thanks for this, SaberTruth. Good catching what James was putting out there.

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Tanx.

The Bible tells us why people do not come to God and are saved. The Bible tells us why there are unbelievers. The reason Calvinists give are against God and Jesus. The reason Calvinists give are not in the Bible.
I hope this information helps other Christians understand better why unbelievers don't want to come to Jesus.

Why do people reject Jesus? Why do they believe in nothing, or in false gods/goddesses? The Bible tells us why people don't believe and be saved.

Those who don't believe and obey Jesus love darkness instead of light because their deeds are evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

They are stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, and they always resist the Holy Ghost.

They are obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations--

They do evil in God's sight and chose what displeases Him.

That which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations,

They exchange the truth of God for a lie.

They are self-seeking and they reject the truth and follow evil.

They do not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God.

They are hostile to God.

They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

They have been deceived by sin.

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Their minds are on earthly things.

When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart.

There are those who hear the word of God but the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And there are those who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. There are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

They are stubborn and follow their own devices.

They are stubborn; the sinews of their neck are iron, their forehead are bronze.

They have stubborn and rebellious hearts; they have turned aside and gone away.

They do not listen or pay attention; instead, they follow the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They go backward and not forward.

They have stubborn pride.

They refuse to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways.

Stubborn like a heifer. How then can the LORD pasture them like lambs in a meadow?

Unbelievers should examine themselves and they might be able to see that the word of God is true.

John 3; Acts 7:51; Isaiah 65:2; Isaiah 65:11,12; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 1:25; Romans 2:8; Romans 1:28; Romans 8:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:10; Hebrews 3:13; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4; Philippians 3:19;

Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:11-16; Psalm 81:12; Isaiah 48:4; Jeremiah 5:23; Jeremiah 7:24: Leviticus 26:19; Judges 2:19; Hosea 4:16

First of all...where did I say I was a Calvinist? I never made any such claims. Second of all, from your responses I can see that you don't even understand fully what Calvinist's believe...sounds like you guys are referring to hyper Calvinism which is totally different.

SaberTuth - There is no double speaking going on here. I said we cannot chose God. I also said that we can chose to do good things or deeds. What that means is that we cannot chose to get saved but we can chose to do good like be a missionary or donate money. Again, I was just showing that although we can chose to do good deeds it means nothing because God doesn't see it as good fruit but bad fruit because we are still dead in trespasses and sins. I am not sure what part of that is confusing but I guess I tried to express myself as best I can...I can do no other.

You said that God makes Himself known to all who earnestly seek Him......sounds good but is that what scripture teaches? According to Romans 3:11 and other verses, no one seeks after God. It doesn't say some...it says no one.
Based on your response about Ezekiel 36....are you saying that it only applies to Israel? Didn't Paul say there is no distinction anymore? That both Jew and Gentile have been chosen to become adopted as sons??

You said...Why do Calvinists argue about anything at all? What's the point? God forces everything to happen, and allegedly has forced me to not accept Calvinism. So what's the point?....to which I say, this is not what Calvinists hold to. Not traditional reformed theology anyways. I think you are mistaking hyper Calvinism with historical reformed theology. But anyways, God is sovereign....but at the same time He chooses to work through men. Isaiah 6 shows us how God was looking for someone to do His work...Isaiah offered Himself to do such work. This begs the question...why wouldn't God just do it Himself? The answer is because God will get much more glory out of using someone to do it. That is why we have the parable of the corrupt judge in Luke 18. Jesus is trying to teach us that although God can and will do whatever He wants...at the same time if we lift our prayers to Him...things will happen that wouldn't of happen without the praying. So I hope you are not wrongly classifying me under some Hyper Calvinist label or any other label.

I am also getting the impression that I am being attacked. Hope I am wrong. I don't want to get into a heated debate. I just want to share in brotherly love. I think maybe I am just being misunderstood...but if I am saying anything that is seen as rude or arrogant or anything else...I'm sorry. Just trying to dialogue with you all. Even though we may not agree I think it's good to weight and compare what we know with what others have come to understand. God bless!

James said:

I also said that we can chose to do good things or deeds. What that means is that we cannot chose to get saved but we can chose to do good like be a missionary or donate money. Again, I was just showing that although we can chose to do good deeds it means nothing because God doesn't see it as good fruit but bad fruit because we are still dead in trespasses and sins. I am not sure what part of that is confusing but I guess I tried to express myself as best I can...I can do no other.

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I'm totally confused. You admit that we have the faculty of choice, choosing between good or bad, while in a unregenerate state. (The consequences of those choices being irrelevant to posessing the faculty itself.) Yet with this faculty of choice, we are incapable of choosing God. So are we then forced into Christianity? Does God remove our free will and usher us into His kingdom. What is the definition of repentance then for you? Do you have free will today as a Christian? If so when did it come back? Or if you do not have free will today what do you make of Hebrews (6:4-8)
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned."

In the above verse did God force people into the kingdom and then kick them out for one reason or another? Boy, God's sovereignty can be so sadistic at times, at least that's what it seems to be in your theology.

By the way, I'm not attacking you in the least. I'm just struggling to understand some of your totally illogical statements.

I also don't understand how Free Will is a topic of discussion. To me Free Will is a given. Either God plays with robots or He doesn't.

I would think that the greater discussion would be wether God knows our Free Will choices in advance or not, since a true Free Will choice does not exist or can be known until it is actually executed.

Until later,
Chheers





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